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I've been following the development of this game and I have to say that I am glad Larian is taking player feedback into account. However, I have not seen this mentioned so I figured I would mention it now. The changes to the core 5e conditions are a serious problem and are not only making the game more complicated than it needs to be but also ruin the experience. The prone and frightened conditions are both egregious examples of this. Neither of these should be taking your turn away yet in BG3 they do. I wanted to gauge other peoples thoughts on this as well and see if there are other examples that others have found that I cannot think of right now.

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What's the real argument for removing them? Except that they are not in the official rules. It's not like the 5e is ultra-complicated(especially phb) that the additional effects will make it more broken or unplayable. I would say more that what they are doing right now is fixing a mistake with 5e where every weapon is identical.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 18/10/21 04:22 PM.
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Agreed, frightened/prone are much more debilitating than they should be - there's no good reason to change them that I can see? If they ar emore powerfulm, then it should be harder to trigger them. However, with all the shoving that goes on it is easy to end up prone for example.

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The buff to Frightened makes Menacing Attack really OP. They should only get a debuff but now they are fleeing, losing actions and drawing AoOs from everyone.

Prone also ends concentration in BG3 on top of taking away your action unless they fixed that. Doubt it.

They really need to get this stuff right. These are basic things that they should have right at this stage, a full year into EA.

The new homebrew conditions they just added are making my head spin. It's way too much clutter.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
The buff to Frightened makes Menacing Attack really OP. They should only get a debuff but now they are fleeing, losing actions and drawing AoOs from everyone.

Prone also ends concentration in BG3 on top of taking away your action unless they fixed that. Doubt it.

They really need to get this stuff right. These are basic things that they should have right at this stage, a full year into EA.

The new homebrew conditions they just added are making my head spin. It's way too much clutter.

Why is this a problem for you?

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by 1varangian
The buff to Frightened makes Menacing Attack really OP. They should only get a debuff but now they are fleeing, losing actions and drawing AoOs from everyone.

Prone also ends concentration in BG3 on top of taking away your action unless they fixed that. Doubt it.

They really need to get this stuff right. These are basic things that they should have right at this stage, a full year into EA.

The new homebrew conditions they just added are making my head spin. It's way too much clutter.

Why is this a problem for you?
Because I like balanced combat that doesn't degenerate into abusing a few OP mechanics.

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Frightened working as RAW will also be more fun for players when used against them. In a turn based game you want to be very carful about taking away a player's agency over their character, and this should be reserved for powerful and rare abilities. There is a big difference between losing your entire turn while watching your character run away, and being restricted to "making attacks at disadvantage while the source of your fear is visible" + "can't willingly move closer to the source of your fear."

This is of course in addition to the balance arguments. A single Battlemaster maneuver shouldn't auto-win combats.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
The buff to Frightened makes Menacing Attack really OP. They should only get a debuff but now they are fleeing, losing actions and drawing AoOs from everyone.

Prone also ends concentration in BG3 on top of taking away your action unless they fixed that. Doubt it.

They really need to get this stuff right. These are basic things that they should have right at this stage, a full year into EA.

The new homebrew conditions they just added are making my head spin. It's way too much clutter.

I agree with this. frightened and prone are too debilitating as they are right now, and on top of that they add to frustration in combat: in a fight where you literally have to wait a few minutes for your turn because there are just so many enemies, it is extremely frustrating to have your turn taken away from you by a condition that originally should only make it harder for you to fight the enemy that frightened you.

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I'm not convinced that this stuff lacks balance. It seems to play out well in my games.

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Several existing conditions are now just, functionally "Skip your turn", instead of the interesting and varied things that they were which made taking your turn more challenging or something you had to think about. This is bad for any game, and it's not fun.

Prone is the worst example for me, because currently Prone inflicts Unconscious - which is why it skips your action and ends your concentration.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I'm not convinced that this stuff lacks balance. It seems to play out well in my games.

That is great that it hasn't been a problem for you, but everyone else clearly has a problem with it. Also the change seems to have no purpose other than to frustrate the player. I literally stopped playing for a while after a frustrating combat where my gith fighter spent the entire combat frightened.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Several existing conditions are now just, functionally "Skip your turn", instead of the interesting and varied things that they were which made taking your turn more challenging or something you had to think about. This is bad for any game, and it's not fun.

Prone is the worst example for me, because currently Prone inflicts Unconscious - which is why it skips your action and ends your concentration.

This is absolutely true as well. I wasn't thinking about the sameness of it all but you make a good point here.

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Originally Posted by webmaster94
Originally Posted by JandK
I'm not convinced that this stuff lacks balance. It seems to play out well in my games.

That is great that it hasn't been a problem for you, but everyone else clearly has a problem with it. Also the change seems to have no purpose other than to frustrate the player. I literally stopped playing for a while after a frustrating combat where my gith fighter spent the entire combat frightened.

The "everyone else" argument is simply nonsensical. You assume everyone thinks alike.
Additional effects add complexity to the game, which is always good and they are definitely not even have half of power of current battlemaster maneuvers.
As for the fear effect I like it, it is quite satisfying to see your character turn the tide and let you win lost matches.
Stronger effects are also the only way for martial classes to keep up with the mages in any way.
There will never be a restrictive rest system in the game which makes magic classes much more powerful than they should be.
Unfortunately, there is no chance for this to change in the full version, it is extremely difficult to do correctly and even then it will not be liked by most players.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 19/10/21 06:17 AM.
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The problem with only implementing 5e whenever it is not "in the way" for Larian's ideas is simple: it messes with the balance. Being prone is not losing your turn. It is losing half your speed if you want to get up. It is something you can inflict to get advantage for your melee party members. Same goes for frightened. It is a source to inflict disadvantage, not something you lose your turn over. Action economy is a key part of the balance and these conditions are messing with them in a bad way.

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Originally Posted by KingTiki
The problem with only implementing 5e whenever it is not "in the way" for Larian's ideas is simple: it messes with the balance. Being prone is not losing your turn. It is losing half your speed if you want to get up. It is something you can inflict to get advantage for your melee party members. Same goes for frightened. It is a source to inflict disadvantage, not something you lose your turn over. Action economy is a key part of the balance and these conditions are messing with them in a bad way.

The problem is that your balance is already disturbed by how often you can rest.
You might as well rest after each fight, which makes the casters incredibly strong.
As you can spam with inflict wounds in every fight, it is unlikely that the fighter will be able to make up for it. It will only get worse with higher spell levels.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by KingTiki
The problem with only implementing 5e whenever it is not "in the way" for Larian's ideas is simple: it messes with the balance. Being prone is not losing your turn. It is losing half your speed if you want to get up. It is something you can inflict to get advantage for your melee party members. Same goes for frightened. It is a source to inflict disadvantage, not something you lose your turn over. Action economy is a key part of the balance and these conditions are messing with them in a bad way.

The problem is that your balance is already disturbed by how often you can rest.
You might as well rest after each fight, which makes the casters incredibly strong.
As you can spam with inflict wounds in every fight, it is unlikely that the fighter will be able to make up for it. It will only get worse with higher spell levels.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Clearly resting needs to be fixed because still in patch 6, it's not a mechanic. It's just a button you press to reset HP and abilities. You can't use that to justify broken abilities. No amount of tweaking to Battlemaster will balance an 11th level Sorcerer spamming Twinned Disintegrates and casting two spells per turn all day long in every fight.

Although I fear what a mess Larian could make if they started making big changes to higher level characters. They'd probably give Fighters the armor system from DOS.

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I really don't get why they reworked the conditions of D&D.
And I don't get why they created so many new conditions in a game that is already complex.

Complexity does not always make better tactical game.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by KingTiki
The problem with only implementing 5e whenever it is not "in the way" for Larian's ideas is simple: it messes with the balance. Being prone is not losing your turn. It is losing half your speed if you want to get up. It is something you can inflict to get advantage for your melee party members. Same goes for frightened. It is a source to inflict disadvantage, not something you lose your turn over. Action economy is a key part of the balance and these conditions are messing with them in a bad way.

The problem is that your balance is already disturbed by how often you can rest.
You might as well rest after each fight, which makes the casters incredibly strong.
As you can spam with inflict wounds in every fight, it is unlikely that the fighter will be able to make up for it. It will only get worse with higher spell levels.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Clearly resting needs to be fixed because still in patch 6, it's not a mechanic. It's just a button you press to reset HP and abilities. You can't use that to justify broken abilities. No amount of tweaking to Battlemaster will balance an 11th level Sorcerer spamming Twinned Disintegrates and casting two spells per turn all day long in every fight.

Although I fear what a mess Larian could make if they started making big changes to higher level characters. They'd probably give Fighters the armor system from DOS.

The problem is that, as I have written many times, the only way to balance your rest is to introduce a hard limit.
I don't think anyone believes Larian will eventually do it.
If you look at other games, virtually none has rest restrictions. Owlcat tried to do this with the Kingsmaker but ended up disliking the system so they abandoned any attempts to restrict rest on WotR.
If Larian introduced something like this, they would be eaten alive by the players, but probably no one would sabotage their own game.

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The resting system is something that every player can choose to interact with or not. No single player game with modding capability is robust against being broken in one form or another. Also these are 2 kinds of balance you mix up here.

I was strictly talking encounter balance with action economy. You are talking about the adventuring day balance, which is a fair point. But its also a huge problem in the pnp version, so I don't expect Larian to fix that. I expect them to not fuck up encounter balance.

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The problem is also that if some classes stand out, you need to strengthen the rest, which again means that you have to adjust the difficulty of the enemies accordingly.
I don't worry about the fact that the game will be too difficult or too easy (that's what the difficulty levels are for)

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