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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I can't wait to introduce the world to my Half-Orc Sorcerer. He can't cast spells that well so he often just resorts to hitting enemies with a greatclub while yelling "Magic Missile!"

That is priceless! Thank you for the laugh

Makes you wonder what he does when he wants to cast Charm Person.

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Like others said: do Tasha. I realize that the the full custom lineage may be a bit much for the Engine/Devs atm, but at least the ASIs being swappable would be a huge win for everyone.

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I do like how different races have different perks because it makes sense.

But I hate having it at the back of my head that playing the race I want means I can never be as good as a class with stats that align with that race, so implementing Tasha's optional rule to move your bonuses to any ability score would be ideal.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I can't wait to introduce the world to my Half-Orc Sorcerer. He can't cast spells that well so he often just resorts to hitting enemies with a greatclub while yelling "Magic Missile!"

That is priceless! Thank you for the laugh

Makes you wonder what he does when he wants to cast Charm Person.

"Come here you, give papa a smooch!"

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Originally Posted by Marcus Artorius
But I hate having it at the back of my head that playing the race I want means I can never be as good as a class with stats that align with that race,

Where do people keep pulling this idea from? It's not true. It's never been true in 5e.

Everyone can get to that 20 in their core state, and usually by level 8 everyone does. Races with an aligned stat don't have to work as hard at something that comes to them a little bit easier than others, but they hit the same cap. The Goliath and the Halfling barbarians both cap out at 20 strength and have an equal chance in an arm wrestle. The half-orc and the elf wizard both cap out at 20 Int, and can memorise and recall information equally well as each other. Some of those characters had to work a little harder to get there, but at the end of the day it is Precisely the fact that Every Race can be As Good as Any Other Race at Anything that is a defining aspect of 5e's system. People need to stop saying that.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Marcus Artorius
But I hate having it at the back of my head that playing the race I want means I can never be as good as a class with stats that align with that race,

Where do people keep pulling this idea from? It's not true. It's never been true in 5e.

Everyone can get to that 20 in their core state, and usually by level 8 everyone does. Races with an aligned stat don't have to work as hard at something that comes to them a little bit easier than others, but they hit the same cap. The Goliath and the Halfling barbarians both cap out at 20 strength and have an equal chance in an arm wrestle. The half-orc and the elf wizard both cap out at 20 Int, and can memorise and recall information equally well as each other. Some of those characters had to work a little harder to get there, but at the end of the day it is Precisely the fact that Every Race can be As Good as Any Other Race at Anything that is a defining aspect of 5e's system. People need to stop saying that.
Being forced to take an ASI because your primary ability score started lower means you get to choose one less feat than someone who is more optimized. Sure, you can get that 20 but maybe miss out on a fun feat you'd have liked for your character concept. 🤷🏾‍♂️

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Having one fewer feats (setting aside that it's an optional rule, because the natural response is that everyone uses them, and it's true, they do) is a false equivocation to "can never be as good as a different race". You can be as good as them at your class skills; that's factual, true and simple. You might end up with slightly less freedom to branch out or add extra variables, because you do need to work harder to get there (and, incidentally, the argument also relies on imagining that the ability score improvements you do get for your race simply don't exist or don't contribute to your character in any way... also a convenient fallacy for the argument), but in terms of being able to do the things your class does? You absolutely can be, and it's a dishonest argument to claim otherwise.

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I'm not a big fan of this strong current of powergaming culture that that the 5e community has developed, it's mirrors exactly what happened with 3.5 and Pathfinder and it sucked a whole lot of fun out of those systems (Pathfinder is such a great system for customisation and being able to express your character in mechanics, but what's the point of all that when the spirit of the community expects you build a machine as if there was prize money at stake at the end of the game?). If this was a tabletop game I'd be put off if my fellow players insisted they couldn't play a certain race or class combination because they'd have to start at 14 or 15 instead of 16 or 17.

Then again, this isn't a tabletop game. I'd have nothing against them adding options to change this for people who want to play that way. But I don't want it for the default setting.


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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Marcus Artorius
But I hate having it at the back of my head that playing the race I want means I can never be as good as a class with stats that align with that race,

Where do people keep pulling this idea from? It's not true. It's never been true in 5e.

Everyone can get to that 20 in their core state, and usually by level 8 everyone does. Races with an aligned stat don't have to work as hard at something that comes to them a little bit easier than others, but they hit the same cap. The Goliath and the Halfling barbarians both cap out at 20 strength and have an equal chance in an arm wrestle. The half-orc and the elf wizard both cap out at 20 Int, and can memorise and recall information equally well as each other. Some of those characters had to work a little harder to get there, but at the end of the day it is Precisely the fact that Every Race can be As Good as Any Other Race at Anything that is a defining aspect of 5e's system. People need to stop saying that.


As of now in EA you can do make a Warlock having 20 charisma at level 4
But u need to get the eye of Volo, and maybe you want some Ability boost from Ethels Hair too

Maybe you can get a 20 for every class allready. i didnt test it.
But at least i saw a Video on Youtube with that 20 Charisma Warlock.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
I'm not a big fan of this strong current of powergaming culture that that the 5e community has developed, it's mirrors exactly what happened with 3.5 and Pathfinder and it sucked a whole lot of fun out of those systems (Pathfinder is such a great system for customisation and being able to express your character in mechanics, but what's the point of all that when the spirit of the community expects you build a machine as if there was prize money at stake at the end of the game?). If this was a tabletop game I'd be put off if my fellow players insisted they couldn't play a certain race or class combination because they'd have to start at 14 or 15 instead of 16 or 17.

Then again, this isn't a tabletop game. I'd have nothing against them adding options to change this for people who want to play that way. But I don't want it for the default setting.

This is my feeling also, almost exactly.

I would only caveat to say that it's only one slice of the 5e community that has calcified in this way, and it mainly comes from people who play or have played adventure league, or, unfortunately, those who are regularly DMed by people who play AL and pick up the mentality.

I was so excited to build an alchemist in the pathfinder system, and having that huge big plethora of options that I couldn't even begin to understand the breadth of... yes, I quickly discovered that I'd more or less have to ignore all of it if I wanted to have an even remotely optimal character, but I didn't really care about that, and just wanted to have fun with it. Everyone else at the table except for one other player who was starting PF for the first time alongside me, all had carefully constructed, min-maxed, power-gamed builds, and when asked to talk about their characters would only really talk about the build, and the skills, and what it could do... and that is honestly the absolute DEATH of the game, in spirit, if not in revenue.

(That said, I went on to enjoy my little alchemist so much that I created (in my own free time) a complex, detailed and excellently balanced 5e Alchemist class, complete with six subclasses which I'd highly recommend to folks interested in such things ^.^ It's far more fun and flexible than the Artificer which was, unfortunately, 80-90% finalised for release at the time I was working on this...)

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while they're at it why not include a ridiculously easy mode where all stats are set to 25... sigh.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
I'm not a big fan of this strong current of powergaming culture that that the 5e community has developed, it's mirrors exactly what happened with 3.5 and Pathfinder and it sucked a whole lot of fun out of those systems (Pathfinder is such a great system for customisation and being able to express your character in mechanics, but what's the point of all that when the spirit of the community expects you build a machine as if there was prize money at stake at the end of the game?). If this was a tabletop game I'd be put off if my fellow players insisted they couldn't play a certain race or class combination because they'd have to start at 14 or 15 instead of 16 or 17.

Then again, this isn't a tabletop game. I'd have nothing against them adding options to change this for people who want to play that way. But I don't want it for the default setting.

You speak as if you couldn't just use Cheat Engine, Mods or play in Story Mode. A lot of People forget that this is still a Videogame and offering next to 0% Challenge makes it Insanely Boring for Gamers too. Some of us aren't the Typical Zoomer Kid that just wants to get on with the next Trendy/New thing ASAP because we can't control our Anxiety to Consume and have Extremely Short Attention Span and treat every Videogame like a Forgettable Current Year Movie. I don't agree with making some Game Extremely Bland and Easy just because X People don't have any time to play anything and want everything to become a Roguelike Run. The majority hate Pathfinder because it takes A LOT OF TIME to get into and has A LOT OF LAYERS but all that means is that is not the Game for you at the moment. A Game doesn't suck just because it takes time to learn and get into. HOWEVER, A VIDEOGAME sucks badly if it's just another Uninspiring and Bland Time Waster with no Challenge whatsoever. All it does is end up feeling like a Chore where Developers couldn't provide a Combat System and Enemy Encounter to keep you on your toes and interested enough. This is what happened to me in D:OS2 after Driftwood. And mostly because you didn't have any Character Progression at all after that and it was just about beating the Scaling with Power Stack and it was super easy one shotting everything. And i'm not gonna do Lvl 1 Cripple Runs just because the Devs don't know how to handle Balance and think just giving all Enemies 1 Million HP is a Solution for Boring Combat. I believe they have to invest more time designing Enemy Encounters around Party Composition because they are all FIXED and they shouldn't be built around Cheese either. There are no random Trash Mob Encounters here from World Map nor Enemy Respawns. You are even more Limited that in Pathfinder. This is as ON RAILS as it gets. I think it's more like LARIAN is too afraid that it's gonna scare D:OS2 Fanbase and Casuals if they end up adding more Layers to the Game even if it's worth it to keep it interesting. We are talking CRPG here.

If you just wanted to make a CGI D&D Playstation Movie you could have just done that but Combat, Balance and Class System should be an extremely important part in a D&D Videogame and i believe the more Gimmicks we have the more is taking away from that. I say this because they already took the Liberty to Homebrew the 5E Ruleset and that's what is obviously creating lots of redundancies with the Divinity Code. Just adding more crap for the sake of having more crap doesn't necessarily make it a GOOD IDEA because Balance is always an Issue. And maybe some Day Larian will get this as a Developer.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 27/10/21 12:22 AM.
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