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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by polliwagwhirl
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
If Astarion was the only problem, just refer to the other ongoing topics for many other issues with tone and writing.

A magic space hamster is worse than anything in BG3. Those "issues" about tone are fictional.

It's funny because Minsc and his space hamster is going to be part of BG3.
It depends on how they will write it.

Will it be a brave and goodhearted Rashemi warrior with a sad undertone who was mentally handicapped by a blow to the head causing delusions. Or will it be a heroic warrior with an animal companion who turns out to be an actual extraplanar shapeshifter creature who eats mind flayers for breakfast which is revealed in an epic cinematic.

Mature vs. juvenile. Real vs. cartoon. Timeless masterpiece vs. fast food entertainment that relies on cheap shock value. Larian will be measured.

Last edited by 1varangian; 24/10/21 10:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by robertthebard
What story beats are tied to talking to squirrels? Is this, instead of not LRing enough, why I'm not getting all my tadpole dreams in Act 1? I don't recall that being something I have to do to advance the story, can you point me to something somewhere that demonstrates otherwise?
So any criticism aimed at, for example, the conflict in the grove is irrelevant because as far as I know it is skippable? If it is in the game, it's that games content. It either adds or detracts from the experience. If I don't find enjoyment in interacting with characters, in a genre where the main appeal is interacting with characters, then I have a problem with the game. It's an RPG. Of course I will talk to anyone I can, at least on the first playthrough.

Read the topic title again, and come back. IF it had been limited to that, I'd probably have not posted here. However, how they talk has been an issue brought up repeatedly, more than a couple of times, and is completely optional. I love that the logic you try to bring to bear here applies perfectly to what I said, when one doesn't try to ignore the premise of the thread. Let's not pretend that one would miss anything game breaking if they don't talk to the squirrels. Since there are no story beats tied to them, based entirely on my own experience, where I haven't talked to any squirrels, and the lack of any links to story beats they directly influence, then talking to them is optional, which is what I said. So the basic premise of the thread is "remove this optional conversation, because I don't like it, since we can decapitate someone".

I do a lot of things in RPGs that are optional. Trying to clear all of the fog of war on maps, peeking in every corner, looting all the chests I can find and open, etc. None of that is required, but I sure don't want it removed because someone else thinks that the only way the game would work is if all paths led to the next main quest objective. I referenced Alfira's song earlier, which is, I believe, where the "Disney squirrels" are. What main plot lines am I going to miss if I miss triggering that event? None, but I'll miss out on the music video. There's a side quest tied to the Harpies that I missed my first run. I didn't even know the Harpies were there until my second run. There's a lot of "I don't like this, because immersion" floating around, but when it's something like "I cast talk to animals, and the squirrels were silly", what's one supposed to think? Are squirrels really serious in real life or something? I've never actually had a conversation with one, so enlighten me.

Much ado is being made about Boo, leaving me with the idea that some people believe that the only way someone could think "giant miniature space hamster" is if they were in a certain realm, someone actually said that in this thread. So no other realms have space, or content from space? Is planar/dimension hopping not possible in the FR? I guess the whole premise of the prologue is busted then, right? It's not like Minsc could just be a bit touched in the head, despite the fact that he is very much presented as such. So that translates to "crazy people in a game break my immersion"...

Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by polliwagwhirl
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
If Astarion was the only problem, just refer to the other ongoing topics for many other issues with tone and writing.

A magic space hamster is worse than anything in BG3. Those "issues" about tone are fictional.

It's funny because Minsc and his space hamster is going to be part of BG3.
It depends on how they will write it.

Will it be a brave and goodhearted Rashemi warrior with a sad undertone who was mentally handicapped by a blow to the head causing delusions. Or will it be a heroic warrior with an animal companion who turns out to be an actual extraplanar shapeshifter creature who eats mind flayers for breakfast which is revealed in an epic cinematic.

Mature vs. juvenile. Real vs. cartoon. Timeless masterpiece vs. fast food entertainment that relies on cheap shock value. Larian will be measured.

As will the critiques. There are "review" sites that aren't worth their weight in crap, after all. A review that goes on and on about talking squirrels will be taken at face value. For example, I despise Steam reviews and Meta-Critic. The former is easily manipulated, with 0 consequence, review bombs of the OG Skyrim because of the Creation Club, for example, when you can't even use the Creation Club if you only have the OG release of Skyrim. 0 of 10 and 10 of 10 reviews on games before anyone could have actually played it, along with not requiring one actually own the game in the latter's case. So just because someone is critical doesn't mean they're right. See the fuss raised about Minsc and Boo for an example.

Last edited by robertthebard; 24/10/21 11:06 AM.
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Coming back to the comedy of older bg games, I wonder how some people justify Jaheira breaking the fourth wall in her sentences.

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I found it hilarious. Along with one of the voices in DA Origins, that said "Shall I get you a ladder, so you can get off my back", or something similar...

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I don’t mind humor in a dark world at all. An example of well integrated humor was Sten in DAO…the cookie scene and the “are you a woman” scene. They were perfectly in character for him and did not break immersion, but were really funny.

The OP is not talking about humor. They are not
talking about characters with funny tics like Minsc. They are talking about complete tonal shifts and a mish mash of ideas that break immersion. I personally agree that the game suffers from this.

However, I have accepted it and moved on tbh. This game will never be anywhere near as special or memorable to me as others rpgs and I think this is one of the main reasons. Lack of cohesive tone and writing. However, That does not stop my enjoying it in a different way than I enjoy more masterfully written games. I just consider it goofy fun!

Also…it is so tedious to see the strawman arguments of “just skip it if u don’t like it”. I personally despise metagaming in an rpg. It is the number one thing that breaks immersion for me.

It so often seems like two camps. Camp one likes immersion in the sense that an rpg should feel natural and logical in and of itself with the ability to sink into a character and make choices based on that character’s traits…not based on beating the game or getting the most loot. Camp two cares less about immersion and instead wants tons of content, easter eggs, varied characters to interact with, etc. These are both TOTALLY fine, but it is annoying when folks from camp two willfully ignore what the folks from camp one are saying.

I (the player) can ignore the squirrels. My character, who knows NOTHING about the druid grove because he has never been there before, might very well try out his new magic ring by talking to the squirrels. When that happens, I (the player) roll my eyes and think “wow…there were too many cooks in the kitchen when this game was written”. I think that is what the OP is saying, and I get it. Stuff like that is immersion breaking.

I again point out that this is not a deabreaker for me…I can do camp one or camp two type games depending on my mood. But my all-time favorite games def come from the camp one way of thinking. It is a wee bit disappointing that BG3 is instead more of a “silly fun”game…but then again, those games are just fine.

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Are people genuinely trying to compare the humor of Baldur's Gate and/or Baldur's Gate 2 to that of Larian's zanier attempt? Holy cow.

Originally Posted by timebean
However, I have accepted it and moved on tbh. This game will never be anywhere near as special or memorable to me as others rpgs and I think this is one of the main reasons. Lack of cohesive tone and writing. However, That does not stop my enjoying it in a different way than I enjoy more masterfully written games. I just consider it goofy fun!

As usual, the best case scenario (as is the case with long-removed sequels trying to recapture old magic) is "It's a decent/good game/film/book/et cetera, but a poor (insert-franchise-here) game/film/book/et cetera."

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Are people genuinely trying to compare the humor of Baldur's Gate and/or Baldur's Gate 2 to that of Larian's zanier attempt? Holy cow.

Yes, because humour in Bg and Bg2 for me was cringy and off-puting.

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Originally Posted by timebean
The OP is not talking about humor. They are not
talking about characters with funny tics like Minsc. They are talking about complete tonal shifts and a mish mash of ideas that break immersion.

It's not funny tics when the whole personality of Minsc is based around being dumb and having a space hamaster. And Jan Jansen is 95% turnips and 5% sad love story.

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Originally Posted by timebean
It so often seems like two camps. Camp one likes immersion in the sense that an rpg should feel natural and logical in and of itself with the ability to sink into a character and make choices based on that character’s traits…not based on beating the game or getting the most loot. Camp two cares less about immersion and instead wants tons of content, easter eggs, varied characters to interact with, etc. These are both TOTALLY fine, but it is annoying when folks from camp two willfully ignore what the folks from camp one are saying.

I (the player) can ignore the squirrels. My character, who knows NOTHING about the druid grove because he has never been there before, might very well try out his new magic ring by talking to the squirrels. When that happens, I (the player) roll my eyes and think “wow…there were too many cooks in the kitchen when this game was written”. I think that is what the OP is saying, and I get it. Stuff like that is immersion breaking.

Timebean, that's really well put. As someone solidly in camp 2, that was eye-opening for me.

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If the varied tones in this game creates a break in immersion, I can only imagine how surreal and painful real life must be, what with all the different flavors and attitudes, the ups, the downs, the clashes of colors and feelings, when you're at a funeral one moment and the next they have the gall to play a goofy comedy on the television screen. It must all seem downright phony, like the crappiest of crappy writing, am I right?

Last edited by JandK; 24/10/21 03:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by JandK
like the crappiest of crappy writing, am I right?
Well, yes. Media (be it book, film or a game) aren't and should be 1:1 representations of reality. That's writing 101. Filtering things that detract or don't contribute to the story you are telling are ammong essencial skill, no matter what you create. You craft world and story - and with that comes careful curation of what you put in it.

Now, is BG3 trying to intentionally contrast dark and funny? No, I don't think so. Tone variation in BG3 doesn't complement individual bits, it conflicts with each other. Not everything, not always, but often enough to be distracting to make it difficult for me to care about characters, their fate or implications of the decisions my character makes.

Originally Posted by timebean
I (the player) can ignore the squirrels. My character, who knows NOTHING about the druid grove because he has never been there before, might very well try out his new magic ring by talking to the squirrels. When that happens, I (the player) roll my eyes and think “wow…there were too many cooks in the kitchen when this game was written”. I think that is what the OP is saying, and I get it. Stuff like that is immersion breaking.
That I think is summarising pretty well why some of us don't see eye to eye.

Last edited by Wormerine; 24/10/21 04:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
That's writing 101.

You wanna know something that's writing 101? Raising the tension... then breaking it before raising it again.

People are spending 100s of hours playing the game. It would be uncomfortable and overwhelming trying to maintain one mood throughout. There's nothing wrong with humorous, lighthearted moments. In fact, those scenes are necessary.

Now, you may not think it's funny. But that's a different argument. That's a matter of subjective taste, not a matter of "writing skill."

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Are people genuinely trying to compare the humor of Baldur's Gate and/or Baldur's Gate 2 to that of Larian's zanier attempt? Holy cow.

They are. The Larian generation is fixated with Minsc/Tiax/Dradeel/JanJansen when they clearly had a well justified, integrated and circumscribed role in the game. Maybe the originals Fallout humor was also off-putting, immersion-breaker and made it a incoherent game. There is little point arguing.

As a side note, I think Larian did a good job on the Globins, which are more in keep with their expertise.

Last edited by IrenicusBG3; 24/10/21 06:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by JandK
You wanna know something that's writing 101? Raising the tension... then breaking it before raising it again.
Agree. PoE1 suffered from the lack of tonal variation.

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Originally Posted by JandK
If the varied tones in this game creates a break in immersion, I can only imagine how surreal and painful real life must be, what with all the different flavors and attitudes, the ups, the downs, the clashes of colors and feelings, when you're at a funeral one moment and the next they have the gall to play a goofy comedy on the television screen. It must all seem downright phony, like the crappiest of crappy writing, am I right?


Sure, real life is varied and in the grand scheme of life, everything goes. But an example … I work on a college campus in real life. A place where, when I am there, I expect active debates, studying, quiet libraries, student filled coffee shops, labs churning out stressed out grads and papers…ya know…academic shite. If I went to work and all of the sudden the campus is filled with amusement park rides, fireworks, kids running around with balloons, stuffed animals lining the corridor, etc? Well…I would wonder what the hell was going on and how on earth I could take my scholarly pursuits seriously in such an environment.

That is the best comparison I can make.

Now is academia humorless? Hell no. There are hilarious people and silly stuff all the time. It is mot all serious professors and dour students and sacred texts. Ie, there are for sure tonal variations and random silliness. But it is not an amusement park, and kids screaming on roller coasters and clowns juggling fire are simply out of place.

Last edited by timebean; 24/10/21 07:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by timebean
Sure, real life is varied and in the grand scheme of life, everything goes. But an example … I work on a college campus in real life. A place where, when I am there, I expect active debates, studying, quiet libraries, student filled coffee shops, labs churning out stressed out grads and papers…ya know…academic shite. If I went to work and all of the sudden the campus is filled with amusement park rides, fireworks, kids running around with balloons, stuffed animals lining the corridor, etc? Well…I would wonder what the hell was going on and how on earth I could take my scholarly pursuits seriously in such an environment.

That is the best comparison I can make.

Now is academia humorless? Hell no. There are hilarious people and silly stuff all the time. It is mot all serious professors and dour students and sacred texts. Ie, there are for sure tonal variations and random silliness. But it is not an amusement park, and kids screaming on roller coasters and clowns juggling fire are simply out of place.

One moment on campus, someone is telling a corny joke. Nearby, a couple walks arm-in-arm, head on shoulder. Next, there's a tragedy and cell phones are pinging with the message, "Run, Hide, Fight."

Clearly, a lot of shifting feelings are happening on campus, all around. Someone is high and laughing. Someone is frantic and stressed out. Someone is falling in love. Someone was recently abused.

But let's tackle this from another angle.

Things are one way while the characters are in the grove. (This can substitute for the campus in your example.)

Things are another way while the characters are in the goblin fortress. (This can substitute for the amusement park.)

See what I mean? How each of those places has a different feel, although each place also has shifts within, as well, and as should be expected.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
It's funny because Minsc and his space hamster is going to be part of BG3.
And I just realized we will probably be able to talk to Boo
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Just to throw it out there - I wonder if BG3s humor annoys me because in what way it involves the player. You know, how Geralt runs into some really silly gags, but he himself never breaks the character.

Difficult for me to form an argument, but will keep it in mind next time I find the thing that annoys me. Usually, if something bothers me, it's my PC doing something without me intending. Speaking of which: thank goodness for better PC expressions.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
And I just realized we will probably be able to talk to Boo

Yikes. I hadn't thought of that at all yet.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Are people genuinely trying to compare the humor of Baldur's Gate and/or Baldur's Gate 2 to that of Larian's zanier attempt? Holy cow.

Yes, because humour in Bg and Bg2 for me was cringy and off-puting.

This is a matter of degrees: one of them (i.e., the original saga) is a firecracker and the other (i.e., Larian's project) is a main-sequence star. Also, I don't relish saying this, but, the writing/pacing in the Baldur's Gate series was head and shoulders above everything Larian has produced thus far; I never walked away from either title (or their expansions) feeling that the experience was generally goofy.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
This is a matter of degrees: one of them (i.e., the original saga) is a firecracker and the other (i.e., Larian's project) is a main-sequence star. Also, I don't relish saying this, but, the writing/pacing in the Baldur's Gate series was head and shoulders above everything Larian has produced thus far; I never walked away from either title (or their expansions) feeling that the experience was generally goofy.
Humor has always been subjective. I am an older gamer and for me the talking squirrels are less fourth wall- breaking than a bandit making a wood and caverns "wink, wink" joke. Or the npc comments you get when you click on them. Playing the saga back then, not everyone was a Minsc & Boo fan either. It just that also with less games on the market and in general the gaming community being smaller, I'd say the expectations were less too.

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