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When people try to tear down the classics in defense of BG3, I imagine a rat nipping at the heels of a wolf.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
The " I do not remember your loves" bit feels so generic and immature, that if I didn't know beforehand that it's from Bg2 I would've assumed it was some overemotional teenager writing to their former sweetheart. And calling his diary outstanding writing when it's on par with an average fanfiction?

How come? It is beautifully delivered and you can feel the struggle and emotional undertones. It is sincerely acted and his story arc supports it, he attempted to clone her, constructed a sanctuary for her, lingering for his memory and past. You may not empathize, as you clearly prefer monotoned characters, but it is well written and is objectively iconic for many. You can criticize the Master in FO1, the Transcendent One (which shares the stereotyped "bad guy" monotonous voice acting as Kerghan's, Darth Vader, etc..) as much as you like, but each one has their strengths and writing style.

Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
And Lae'zel is one-dimensional, generic and boring. Will has the best writing because he is written like an actual human being. He wants to be hero, but only because for him it's a coping mechanism to deal with his insecurities and issues. He suffers from low self-esteem which he hides behind a facade of arrogant bravado, he wants to be loved and respected by his peers, but he also needs to feel that this love and respect are well-earned. The fact that he got his powers from a pact with a demon makes him suffer from an imposter syndrome, he is ashamed of his dealings with Mizora, he suffers from his need to lie and understands it, but is too afraid to stop lying. Wyll is an interesting and complex character.

Lol. I am not defending Lae'zel, I am just saying she is the only character that behaves that she is about to die, whereas your ideal character is teaching kids to fight, casually playing in the Disney Grove as the "tentacles and talons" are about to grow.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
When people try to tear down the classics in defense of BG3, I imagine a rat nipping at the heels of a wolf.

Exactly. How low did we fall? I think it is the Final Fantasy X effect, when bad writing became good writing for the new generation .

Last edited by IrenicusBG3; 31/10/21 02:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Except that there is much more depth. The intricacies are always in the approach.

Not only David Warner’s portrayal of his arrogant dismissive indifference is a piece of art, but so is BG2’s narrative.

In his laboratory you can find references of how he struggles to overcome the dread of the curse and how desperate he is to restore his nature and the “love”/memories he once had. As someone who already lived enough in an eternal penitence you can feel his sadness or ,more appropriately, emptiness from the delicate mistress room dedicated to keep his memory of Ellesime to the twisted clones he created to emulate her. And how much he dedicated his life to restore this primitive feeling. A subtle masterful construction of the character.

Through his journal you can see how they develop the character further in what I consider outstanding writing:

Quote
"My condition grows worse, and what I remember of my 'home' is fleeting. I see images of family whose names I cannot recall, and dream of emotions I no longer feel as vividly. On occasion I sense nature as if she is my mother, as though never removed from her bosom, but such moments are few. I bear the hallmarks of senility with the rage and power of a young elf to lament it.

Bodhi endured the curse much better than I do now, but she was more focused and, more importantly, undead. She is now thoroughly seduced by her vampiric condition, despite its previous failure to counteract the death sentence she was under. She had embraced her mortality, excited by the urgency of it, but now she is confused. Imoen's soul has restored her, but her motives remain transparent, even simplistic. She revels in her carnal nature, even as the elf within despises the creature she has become.

I would pity my 'sister' if I was capable, but emotions come to me only in violent outbursts. Ellesime has taken my ability to truly feel, and I am left with the threadbare heart of a human, or some other short-lived vermin. I will not suffer this much longer."

And David Warner at the end of the game delivers one of the most meaningful lines with extraordinary voice modulation:

Quote
"I, I do not remember your love, Ellesime. I have tried. I have tried to recreate it, to spark it anew in my memory but it is gone. A hollow dead thing. For years I clung to the memory of it, then the memory of the memory, then nothing, the Seldarine took that from me too. I look upon you and feel nothing. I remember nothing but you turning your back on me along with all the others."

That is great writing in my book (along Spellhold sequence and many others) and he is one of the most conflicted villains ever made.


Oh my... Great and outstanding writing? Most conflicted villains ever made? I mean everything can be considered art from a certain point of view and BG2 has some decent writing, but great? And Irenicus himself isn't even decent, he's at most mediocre writing. The " I do not remember your loves" bit feels so generic and immature, that if I didn't know beforehand that it's from Bg2 I would've assumed it was some overemotional teenager writing to their former sweetheart. And calling his diary outstanding writing when it's on par with an average fanfiction? Irenicus isn't conflicted, he's literally as one-dimensional as possible, he was a beloved and respected elven mage who decided to become god, killed a bunch of other elves, got punished and... decided to become god again with even more murder. Where is he conflicted? The guy is a total and complete jerk. The way his "love story" with elven queen is written it feels like there never was any actual love, but common passion, that simply faded, yet Irenicus is too immature to act like an adult about it and makes a big deal about having feelings in the past and not having them now. He never shows any regret, remorse, guilt, he never implies that his crimes are commited for some greater good or that he has any kind of coherent plan for when he achieves his goals. That is bad writing. When a genius megalomaniac elven wizard who is at least two hundred years old is written as a bitter angry immature teenager, that's bad writing.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Now that I am playing patch 6, it is really noticeable how bad the writing is. Sentences feel disconnected, there is a lack of flow on dialogue. (and that is not because of cinematics). 90% of Astarion lines are infested with humor, Gale's introduction is an embarrassing sequence of dialogues, and yes, Wyll has this bland personality/dialogues that blends in with regular world NPCs, making him one of the most forgettable companions in history. And every single NPC you encounter makes jokes that you still are not growing tentacles or talons. There is very little to save in BG3 and mostly comes from Lae'zel.

And Lae'zel is one-dimensional, generic and boring. Will has the best writing because he is written like an actual human being. He wants to be hero, but only because for him it's a coping mechanism to deal with his insecurities and issues. He suffers from low self-esteem which he hides behind a facade of arrogant bravado, he wants to be loved and respected by his peers, but he also needs to feel that this love and respect are well-earned. The fact that he got his powers from a pact with a demon makes him suffer from an imposter syndrome, he is ashamed of his dealings with Mizora, he suffers from his need to lie and understands it, but is too afraid to stop lying. Wyll is an interesting and complex character.
Irenicus got mad for power and went way too far in his pursuit of it, but back then he wasn't a monster. He was simply too ambitious and not worried about consequences. So he had to be punished. To do so they took his soul away, and with that his ability to feel anything. Thus he became an induced sociopath who remembers what it was like to feel, but who cannot do it anymore. And he knows that he cannot feel, and he desperately want to feel, but he just cannot.

Intellectually, he knows that he loves his sister, but his emotional capacity to do so has been removed. Intellectually he knows that he probably still loves Ellesime, but he is not capable of love, and his condition has eaten away even his memories of what it was like to love. He still remembers it as a concept, much like one might remember having learned to ride a bicycle or flying for the first time at some specific point in one's life without actually remembering what it was like.

And with his ability to feel destroyed and his memory of his life as an elf badly deteriorated he has become the monster they punished him for being previously. He didn't set out to be a monster initially, but now that he has become one anyway, why exactly should he not pursue his old goal? Why should he care about torturing some shadow thieves or a couple of bhaalspawn? "The law" means nothing to him and his conscience has been taken away with his soul. What is left for him but to seek power for the sake of power, and maybe settle some scores along the way?

As for him being mediocre, I disagree. His plans were pretty solid all the way through. Set up shop and provoke a war with a guild of incompetent losers. His base got attacked sooner than anticipated but it was still anticipated and he easily moved to Spellhold instead. Meanwhile he had dealings with the Drow and provoked them into engaging the surface elves, tying up their forces so he could pursue his actual goal with minimal interruptions. And despite some serious interference from a player character that just will not die, he still executes the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
How come? It is beautifully delivered and you can feel the struggle and emotional undertones. It is sincerely acted and his story arc supports it, he attempted to clone her, constructed a sanctuary for her, lingering for his memory and past.

All I saw was a creepy objectification of a woman and a desire to own her, not love.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
You may not empathize, as you clearly prefer monotoned characters, but it is well written and is objectively iconic for many. You can criticize the Master in FO1, the Transcendent One (which shares the stereotyped "bad guy" monotonous voice acting as Kerghan's, Darth Vader, etc..) as much as you like, but each one has their strengths and writing style.

I actually prefer realistic villians with motivation that complements their nuanced worldview, Master and Kerghan are good examples, and so are Illusive Man from ME, Kreia from KOTOR2, Caesar from Fallout New Vegas. Yes, they aren't examples of outstanding writing, they are written in good and decent ways, not outstanding, but nevertheless as characters they are complex and for them power is means to achieve something, not an end of their ambitions. If we talk about outstanding writing of villians, here's an example:

We shall show them that they are weak, that they are only pitiful children, but that childlike happiness is the sweetest of all. They will become timid and will look to us and huddle close to us in fear, as chicks to the hen. They will marvel at us and will be awe-stricken before us, and will be proud at our being so powerful and clever that we have been able to subdue such a turbulent flock of thousands of millions. They will tremble impotently before our wrath, their minds will grow fearful, they will be quick to shed tears like women and children, but they will be just as ready at a sign from us to pass to laughter and rejoicing, to happy mirth and childish song. Yes, we shall set them to work, but in their leisure hours we shall make their life like a child's game, with children's songs and innocent dance. Oh, we shall allow them even sin, they are weak and helpless, and they will love us like children because we allow them to sin. We shall tell them that every sin will be expiated, if it is done with our permission, that we allow them to sin because we love them, and the punishment for these sins we take upon ourselves. And we shall take it upon ourselves, and they will adore us as their saviours who have taken on themselves their sins before God. And they will have no secrets from us. We shall allow or forbid them to live with their wives and mistresses, to have or not to have children according to whether they have been obedient or disobedient- and they will submit to us gladly and cheerfully. The most painful secrets of their conscience, all, all they will bring to us, and we shall have an answer for all. And they will be glad to believe our answer, for it will save them from the great anxiety and terrible agony they endure at present in making a free decision for themselves. And all will be happy, all the millions of creatures except the hundred thousand who rule over them. For only we, we who guard the mystery, shall be unhappy. There will be thousands of millions of happy babes, and a hundred thousand sufferers who have taken upon themselves the curse of the knowledge of good and evil. Peacefully they will die, peacefully they will expire in Thy name, and beyond the grave they will find nothing but death. But we shall keep the secret, and for their happiness we shall allure them with the reward of heaven and eternity. Though if there were anything in the other world, it certainly would not be for such as they. It is prophesied that Thou wilt come again in victory, Thou wilt come with Thy chosen, the proud and strong, but we will say that they have only saved themselves, but we have saved all. We are told that the harlot who sits upon the beast, and holds in her hands the mystery, shall be put to shame, that the weak will rise up again, and will rend her royal purple and will strip naked her loathsome body. But then I will stand up and point out to Thee the thousand millions of happy children who have known no sin. And we who have taken their sins upon us for their happiness will stand up before Thee and say: "Judge us if Thou canst and darest." Know that I fear Thee not. Know that I too have been in the wilderness, I too have lived on roots and locusts, I too prized the freedom with which Thou hast blessed men, and I too was striving to stand among Thy elect, among the strong and powerful, thirsting "to make up the number." But I awakened and would not serve madness. I turned back and joined the ranks of those who have corrected Thy work. I left the proud and went back to the humble, for the happiness of the humble. What I say to Thee will come to pass, and our dominion will be built up. I repeat, tomorrow Thou shalt see that obedient flock who at a sign from me will hasten to heap up the hot cinders about the pile on which I shall burn Thee for coming to hinder us. For if anyone has ever deserved our fires, it is Thou. Tomorrow I shall burn Thee.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Lol. I am not defending Lae'zel, I am just saying she is the only character that behaves that she is about to die, whereas your ideal character is teaching kids to fight, casually playing in the Disney Grove as the "tentacles and talons" are about to grow.

First of all, he literally says he is waiting for Halsin to return and also is somewhat resigned to his fate, considering how overwhelming the recent events were for him. Secondly, he isn't just teaching kids to fight, because, like I said before, playing hero is Wyll's coping mechanism, like some people drink alcohol or take drugs to take heir mind off from their problems Wyll is playing Blade of Frontiers for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Irenicus got mad for power and went way too far in his pursuit of it, but back then he wasn't a monster. He was simply too ambitious and not worried about consequences. So he had to be punished. To do so they took his soul away, and with that his ability to feel anything. Thus he became an induced sociopath who remembers what it was like to feel, but who cannot do it anymore. And he knows that he cannot feel, and he desperately want to feel, but he just cannot.

So he wanted to become a god just for the sake of more power and didn't care that people may die, but he wasn't a monster? How does this makes sense? If he had a reason to want godlike powers aside from being a powerhungry megalomaniac I could have agreed with you, but it is established that he just wanted more power and was totally okay with innocent people dying. That's pure evil. Also for a person who can't feel anything he surely feels annoyed and frustrated a lot.


Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Intellectually, he knows that he loves his sister, but his emotional capacity to do so has been removed. Intellectually he knows that he probably still loves Ellesime, but he is not capable of love, and his condition has eaten away even his memories of what it was like to love. He still remembers it as a concept, much like one might remember having learned to ride a bicycle or flying for the first time at some specific point in one's life without actually remembering what it was like.

That's a very fucked up notion of love considering that he had no qualms about betraying her and other elves with his Tree of Life shenanigans. Love without respect isn't love, it's obsession. He was obsessed about Ellesime, he never loved her. You could argue he loved Bodhi, but not Ellesime considering how he backstabbed her.

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
And with his ability to feel destroyed and his memory of his life as an elf badly deteriorated he has become the monster they punished him for being previously. He didn't set out to be a monster initially, but now that he has become one anyway, why exactly should he not pursue his old goal? Why should he care about torturing some shadow thieves or a couple of bhaalspawn? "The law" means nothing to him and his conscience has been taken away with his soul. What is left for him but to seek power for the sake of power, and maybe settle some scores along the way?

As for him being mediocre, I disagree. His plans were pretty solid all the way through. Set up shop and provoke a war with a guild of incompetent losers. His base got attacked sooner than anticipated but it was still anticipated and he easily moved to Spellhold instead. Meanwhile he had dealings with the Drow and provoked them into engaging the surface elves, tying up their forces so he could pursue his actual goal with minimal interruptions. And despite some serious interference from a player character that just will not die, he still executes the whole thing.

Set up a shop in a town where magic is illegal, never bother to get a license or some political clout to protect himself from cowled wizards in case they get onto him. That's Irenicus being dumb. Now he is arrested and while he is obviously dangerous Cowled Wizards (who btw have at least one lvl 30 wizard at their disposal) don't decide to execute him on spot like they do with PC who ignored their warnings, but they send him to Magical Asylum without increasing the guard or taking any special precautions despite the guy literally murdering like dozen of Cowled Wizards before. That's Irenicus having plot armor. Oh, and Imoen is sent with him, even though it's her first time minor offense (she only casted like 1 magic missile, something that gets PC getting warned, not arrested to be shipped to a looney house), how convenient, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Exactly. How low did we fall? I think it is the Final Fantasy X effect, when bad writing became good writing for the new generation .

I feel hurt. I love FFX...

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
When people try to tear down the classics in defense of BG3, I imagine a rat nipping at the heels of a wolf.

It's even funnier when people try to argue this is an actual sequel, i guess for some kind of validation.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Irenicus got mad for power and went way too far in his pursuit of it, but back then he wasn't a monster. He was simply too ambitious and not worried about consequences. So he had to be punished. To do so they took his soul away, and with that his ability to feel anything. Thus he became an induced sociopath who remembers what it was like to feel, but who cannot do it anymore. And he knows that he cannot feel, and he desperately want to feel, but he just cannot.

So he wanted to become a god just for the sake of more power and didn't care that people may die, but he wasn't a monster? How does this makes sense? If he had a reason to want godlike powers aside from being a powerhungry megalomaniac I could have agreed with you, but it is established that he just wanted more power and was totally okay with innocent people dying. That's pure evil. Also for a person who can't feel anything he surely feels annoyed and frustrated a lot.


Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Intellectually, he knows that he loves his sister, but his emotional capacity to do so has been removed. Intellectually he knows that he probably still loves Ellesime, but he is not capable of love, and his condition has eaten away even his memories of what it was like to love. He still remembers it as a concept, much like one might remember having learned to ride a bicycle or flying for the first time at some specific point in one's life without actually remembering what it was like.

That's a very fucked up notion of love considering that he had no qualms about betraying her and other elves with his Tree of Life shenanigans. Love without respect isn't love, it's obsession. He was obsessed about Ellesime, he never loved her. You could argue he loved Bodhi, but not Ellesime considering how he backstabbed her.

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
And with his ability to feel destroyed and his memory of his life as an elf badly deteriorated he has become the monster they punished him for being previously. He didn't set out to be a monster initially, but now that he has become one anyway, why exactly should he not pursue his old goal? Why should he care about torturing some shadow thieves or a couple of bhaalspawn? "The law" means nothing to him and his conscience has been taken away with his soul. What is left for him but to seek power for the sake of power, and maybe settle some scores along the way?

As for him being mediocre, I disagree. His plans were pretty solid all the way through. Set up shop and provoke a war with a guild of incompetent losers. His base got attacked sooner than anticipated but it was still anticipated and he easily moved to Spellhold instead. Meanwhile he had dealings with the Drow and provoked them into engaging the surface elves, tying up their forces so he could pursue his actual goal with minimal interruptions. And despite some serious interference from a player character that just will not die, he still executes the whole thing.

Set up a shop in a town where magic is illegal, never bother to get a license or some political clout to protect himself from cowled wizards in case they get onto him. That's Irenicus being dumb. Now he is arrested and while he is obviously dangerous Cowled Wizards (who btw have at least one lvl 30 wizard at their disposal) don't decide to execute him on spot like they do with PC who ignored their warnings, but they send him to Magical Asylum without increasing the guard or taking any special precautions despite the guy literally murdering like dozen of Cowled Wizards before. That's Irenicus having plot armor. Oh, and Imoen is sent with him, even though it's her first time minor offense (she only casted like 1 magic missile, something that gets PC getting warned, not arrested to be shipped to a looney house), how convenient, isn't it?
When you have a shot at borderline godhood, are you really going to stand with your private parts in your hand and just stare at the chance or are you going to go for it? Some people could theoretically get hurt by it but let's be honest, some people are always hurt by something and it's probably not going to be so bad and you mean really well, right?

If this sounds like a stretch then have a look at Elon Musk. The guy who is going to "save the planet" with "brilliant" electric cars and whatnot is also doing a whole bunch of pointless rocket launches and investing in a crypto with a carbon footprint the size of a small country. Is he a bad guy, though? Or just a nerd who dreams big but can't always quite grasp the finer details of what he's doing?

So yeah, Irenicus went for it. Then he got punished and became what you see in the game. And that thing indeed isn't capable of love anymore, but that doesn't mean he didn't feel it before he got punished. Now, did he betray Ellesime? Of course he did. And that's not something that anyone should do to people they love, but it does happen on a fairly regular basis, and that in itself doesn't show that people don't love the people they betray. But some times they love something else more, some times emotions ebb and flow, and some times people just rationalize too damn well.

Take Keldorn's wife. You reckon she doesn't love Keldorn? She did betray him, after all. Granted, she did that after he sort of betrayed her by never being around, only that's not formally a betrayal so it doesn't count, but logically it kinda is, and so maybe it should count anyway? Kind of confusing, isn't it? And messy. And not very neat and orderly. That's love for you.

As for his planning being bad, no, not really. Magic is illegal where he sets up shop but so what? What are the Cowled Wizards really going to do to him? He can kill them off at will, however many they come at him. Their pathetic magics are useless. He cannot be contained. He cannot be controlled. They have no purpose but to die by his hand, something they come to understand as they die, ever pathetic, ever fools. My point is, he does not fear them in the slightest so why should he bother ingrating himself?

Yes, they take him in, but only after he's killed a whole bunch without breaking a sweat and them taking him in, along with Imoen, is part of his condition to "surrender". Is that unfair on Imoen, sure, but when has that ever stopped the Cowled Wizards? Him getting arrested is entirely on purpose and according to plan, he knows where they'll take him, and he knows that it won't contain him. On top of that, he has Boddhi for backup and the Cowled Wizards don't know a thing about her.

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Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Irenicus got mad for power and went way too far in his pursuit of it, but back then he wasn't a monster. He was simply too ambitious and not worried about consequences. So he had to be punished. To do so they took his soul away, and with that his ability to feel anything. Thus he became an induced sociopath who remembers what it was like to feel, but who cannot do it anymore. And he knows that he cannot feel, and he desperately want to feel, but he just cannot.
Thing is, the "more power at any cost" is probably the most overused motivation when it comes to villains. And the BG saga repeats it with Sarevok, JonBon and Mel. To me it is the hallmark of "safe writing", that is sticking to the tropes publishers know usually sell well.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Why are you arguing over details that don't matter to you, then? Seems like a waste of time and space. Larian asked for feedback and trying to shoot it down isn't useful to anyone.

Because this is the General Discussion forum, maybe? I mean, it's what this forum is for, discussing things about the game. The better question is, why are you so bothered that I disagree with your assessment? Perhaps I feel that your stated position isn't of much use to anyone, and don't want to see what you think makes a good game implemented, when I don't see an issue with what is presented, especially in this context. I mean, you're chastising me for replying to a topic in the General Discussion forum, how am I supposed to think that any other ideas you have are noteworthy, when you don't understand what "General Discussion" means?

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Why are you arguing over details that don't matter to you, then? Seems like a waste of time and space. Larian asked for feedback and trying to shoot it down isn't useful to anyone.

Because this is the General Discussion forum, maybe? I mean, it's what this forum is for, discussing things about the game. The better question is, why are you so bothered that I disagree with your assessment? Perhaps I feel that your stated position isn't of much use to anyone, and don't want to see what you think makes a good game implemented, when I don't see an issue with what is presented, especially in this context. I mean, you're chastising me for replying to a topic in the General Discussion forum, how am I supposed to think that any other ideas you have are noteworthy, when you don't understand what "General Discussion" means?
Without solid reasoning a disagreement is sometimes just a condescending attitude of "you're wrong and Larian knows better, don't change anything". That's not really discussion.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Why are you arguing over details that don't matter to you, then? Seems like a waste of time and space. Larian asked for feedback and trying to shoot it down isn't useful to anyone.

Because this is the General Discussion forum, maybe? I mean, it's what this forum is for, discussing things about the game. The better question is, why are you so bothered that I disagree with your assessment? Perhaps I feel that your stated position isn't of much use to anyone, and don't want to see what you think makes a good game implemented, when I don't see an issue with what is presented, especially in this context. I mean, you're chastising me for replying to a topic in the General Discussion forum, how am I supposed to think that any other ideas you have are noteworthy, when you don't understand what "General Discussion" means?
Without solid reasoning a disagreement is sometimes just a condescending attitude of "you're wrong and Larian knows better, don't change anything". That's not really discussion.

...and when that reasoning is dismissed because you believe "bad writing" or "doesn't fit the tone", both of which can be very subjective, it's open to debate, or dismissal out of hand. You see, I have provided my reasoning, and it doesn't have anything to do with "Larian knows better". This is just another example of you not trying to refute the arguments provided, but simply trying to dismiss someone from the dialog for having the audacity to either disagree, or not see it as being as much of an issue as you want it to be. This is the second time, in two posts that you have gone after me, instead of my stated positions on your thoughts on the topic. Yet you want to accuse me of being condescending?

I realize that you probably thought you'd get a whole lot of pages of "Yeah". Reading through the things you post, I can see a lot of approval fishing, and I can also see the indignation required to post things like "why are you discussing the game in the General forum". I can't do anything about your failure to understand what a particular forum is used for, and that's the first time that I went to you, instead of your idea, because you didn't provide anything else to reply to, just an attack on my discussing the ideas in a thread in the General section of the forums.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
When people try to tear down the classics in defense of BG3,
More importantly, that doesn't invalidate the criticism.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
How come? It is beautifully delivered and you can feel the struggle and emotional undertones. It is sincerely acted and his story arc supports it, he attempted to clone her, constructed a sanctuary for her, lingering for his memory and past.

All I saw was a creepy objectification of a woman and a desire to own her, not love.

That's kinda part of it though. Although I would say that rather than objectify her directly, he objectifies their love. And of course, all his attempts to recreate their love fails to satisfy him, because he can no longer love. He only remembers the feeling and knows that this wasn't it. And over time even the memory fades and he stops spending time in his recreated chambers, stops trying to clone her, stops trying to recreate his feelings, and all that remains is the abandoned attempts to do so alongside all the other long abandoned and forgotten projects that litter his laboratory (remember Reevar anyone? The poor servant and friend, ever dutiful to Irenicus, now trapped in continual torment and unlife in that vat as Irenicus has forgotten he even exists? I don't even want to go back and see what that monologue was like in fear of it being ruined by my maturity, but I can tell you that when I played BG2 as a younging that tragic "I no longer wish to come back" sound clip absolutely broke my heart). And instead the knowledge of having lost it festers in him and becomes bitterness and hatred.

Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
I actually prefer realistic villians with motivation that complements their nuanced worldview, Master and Kerghan are good examples, and so are Illusive Man from ME, Kreia from KOTOR2, Caesar from Fallout New Vegas. Yes, they aren't examples of outstanding writing, they are written in good and decent ways, not outstanding, but nevertheless as characters they are complex and for them power is means to achieve something, not an end of their ambitions. If we talk about outstanding writing of villians, here's an example:

Now, I hardly think Irenicus is the height of mature and nuanced writing (I consider him to be a great example of how even a meagre villain can be elevated to heights far above it's own writing by great acting, since it is Warner's performance that 100% makes that character in the way he breathes life into the pompous and stereotypical voice lines) either, but when you say you like nuanced and complex characters and then go on to list Wyll and, of all things, somebody as flat as the Illusive Man alongside examples like Kreia, and I have to say you come of as somebody who likes the idea of being somebody who likes complex characters more than somebody who is able to tell what gives a character depth, especially with how you just casually dismiss the nuance even meagerly written characters like Irenicus does have and reduce him to a one-dimensional caricature what BG2 actually presents. Sure, Irenicus (the forum poster) is in my opinion completely inflating Irenicus' (the character) complexity. But that's little different from how you blew up Wyll's complexity in response just a few posts ago too.

Or maybe you're just doing said dismissing like that for the sake of arguing on the internet after somebody disliked something you like.


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- Common actions super heroes VFX (jump, dash)
- New VFX for sneak attack (looks like an evil power)
- Jumping so high rather than climbing
- Various animals climbing ladders
- Falling asleep (Bugs Bunny animation)
- Arrow/bold that are shooted with the power of 4yo child playing with a ball.
- Shove VFX/animation/distance
- Pool of blood
- Pool of poison
- Characters moving like chickens (chain mechanic)
- Sun always shining
- Healing liquid surfaces
- Throwing ennemies way too far
- Dipping

Every details in BG3 shout something else than the previous detail. Looking at a sex scene then see a cow climb a ladder. Crushing a mindflayer's head then looking at a badger sitted like a human.

Childish/Mature. Serious/fun. According to the reality of the FR/totally unrealistic.

I think a game can bring all of these things but it has to be "situations". The game has to choose a main tone : BG3 doesn't have one even if it's sold as a "mature" game.

If your exploration looks "realistic" one second then totally give another tone when you jump, the game does not look coherent.

BG3 is mixing way too much tone everywhere according to me. Some VFX, animations and "physics laws" are really strange. In my opinion if they reworked this (the list is just to give an idea), the game would look more coherent.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Irenicus got mad for power and went way too far in his pursuit of it, but back then he wasn't a monster. He was simply too ambitious and not worried about consequences. So he had to be punished. To do so they took his soul away, and with that his ability to feel anything. Thus he became an induced sociopath who remembers what it was like to feel, but who cannot do it anymore. And he knows that he cannot feel, and he desperately want to feel, but he just cannot.
Thing is, the "more power at any cost" is probably the most overused motivation when it comes to villains. And the BG saga repeats it with Sarevok, JonBon and Mel. To me it is the hallmark of "safe writing", that is sticking to the tropes publishers know usually sell well.
This part is true. But the motivation is also somewhat relatable. Power is one of those concepts that universally cover all other things that we might covet, and being willing to break rules to attain something you covet is also somewhat relatable.

Jon, being a fantasy fiction villain, is of course taking that over the top with his power goal being godhood and the rules he's willing to break to get that being all of them. But isn't that mindset fairly common too? I seem to recall a former world leader who quite recently was willing to burn down his country to maintain his dream of being in power. I seem to recall the richest ever dude tweeting about a super-dirty crypto currency to enhance the value and make even more money. And so on, and so forth.

I think the bigger problem with Jon is that we never get access to his original thoughts before he messed up the first time. His hopes, dreams, fears, his plans for what came after, his moral conflicts if any, and how rationalization process to reach the conclusion that he had to go for it. And at some level, I think the silly "moah powah!!" motivation is even working for Jon, as it creates a contrast between the expected cartoon villain one would normally attribute that sort of simple motivation to with the obviously hyperintelligent but fundamentally pitiful creature that the punishment has turned him into.

Also, one might even argue that Jon isn't the only villain and maybe not even the real villain. He's a villain and certainly he needs to be put down, but he's also just a symptom of the complete disregard of others and lack of forethought by the Elves, who took a wielder of unfathomable magics, removed his ability to feel right and wrong, and then sent him out into the world to be a menace to everybody else.

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Originally Posted by ArvGuy
This part is true. But the motivation is also somewhat relatable. Power is one of those concepts that universally cover all other things that we might covet, and being willing to break rules to attain something you covet is also somewhat relatable.
Sure, which is why I think it is the "safe" choice, it's travelling a well travelled road with low risk, high gain (which btw I expect BG3 to take as well when it comes to the main villain, expect the next powergrab for divinity). Though personally I cannot say that I find the motivation of power at any cost relatable, nor interesting to explore.

You can also see how this approach to safe writing is reflected in the protagonist. For all the story implies losing your soul is terrible, in the game is after the initial cutscenes there aren't many consequence. You can take as long as you want hunting Irenicus, nothing happens. Even the slayer choice comes at the low cost of a reputation drop... which you can offset by donating to temples. What is the cost of one's soul, indeed.

There have been some datamined spoilers that at least in BG3 using the tadpole too much might result in passing the point of no return, but who knows.

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I rebel against the notion that e-ver-y-thing - villains included - must be a subversion or else they are not considered "mature". It is possible to produce a well-written so-called "safe" villain and, conversely, it is possible to produce an amateurishly constructed "risky" villain.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I rebel against the notion that e-ver-y-thing - villains included - must be a subversion or else they are not considered "mature". It is possible to produce a well-written so-called "safe" villain and, conversely, it is possible to produce an amateurishly constructed "risky" villain.
Which I don't think anyone here asked for? It's not a one or the other situation, a writer can simply avoid using tropes (whether straight or subverting) altogether.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I rebel against the notion that e-ver-y-thing - villains included - must be a subversion or else they are not considered "mature". It is possible to produce a well-written so-called "safe" villain and, conversely, it is possible to produce an amateurishly constructed "risky" villain.
Which I don't think anyone here asked for? It's not a one or the other situation, a writer can simply avoid using tropes (whether straight or subverting) altogether.

Basically, I don't care which "category" Jon Irenicus happens to "fit" into; the writing and voicework that brought him to life were both on-point.

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