Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 18 of 23 1 2 16 17 18 19 20 22 23
Joined: Jul 2021
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Shar armor

Sharmor.

Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
In addition to skill checks to make sure the player has the relevant information, they can just put books on the hundreds of bookshelves in this game to explain anything they need. If they haven't already. I'm saving the reading for the full game. Or they can use NPC's to explain relevant lore. And then there's the DM voice that can narrate where that works. It's not like there's a shortage of means.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
The problem isn't the means, it's the execution. They already do have plenty of books in circulation. Some out here are arguing that the books should be enough or that the players should research who Shar is on their own.

The other side of it is that some think that there should be some cutscene or something that explains who Shar is, at least giving some basic knowledge and information to the player so when Shadowheart does her "big reveal" the player isn't wondering, "Shar who?"

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
It's important to note that a "failed" roll does not necessarily have to mean no information. It might just mean that the information you get is more general or basic, or perhaps from the perspective of how the common man views and fears Shar while rolling high nets you more context.


Optimistically Apocalyptic
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
Or you know, instead of focusing on how many memes they can generate, Larian could do some worldbuilding, like a normal RPG - you know the stuff: minor quests that flesh out the world, highlights larger conflicts, important concepts and characters.

Namedropping stuff and having easter eggs "for fans" is fine. Relying on outside sources to create a connection with their characters is not.

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by EliasIncarnation
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
this would help at lot. Instead, you can tell that we're supposed to know who Shar is from the "that's okay, i don't judge people on their religions" line. Does anyone remember what all the options for dialogue are from the player character when SH reveals her secret? I'd be interested to see if most of them seem to have insider knowledge on who Shar is or not.

The options all seem to imply that the player's character knows about Shar, since they would be overreactions otherwise.

yea, there's no doubt with that. Every one of them assume knowledge of Shar. Side note, i had to laugh when SH says "this type of headpiece is worn by my brothers and sisters". Kind of blows the whole "it's just a circle" out of the water lol

Not to throw water on the burning oil but that quote could be interpreted to support either side of that point.

Last edited by Sozz; 01/11/21 07:17 PM.
Joined: Jul 2009
I
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
I
Joined: Jul 2009
This "its just a circle" excuse is pure nonsense.
In the FR that is not just a circle. Its like meeting Charles Manson and not noticing anything suspicious about him just because he has a "stylised star" tattooed on his head.

Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The problem isn't the means, it's the execution. They already do have plenty of books in circulation. Some out here are arguing that the books should be enough or that the players should research who Shar is on their own.

The other side of it is that some think that there should be some cutscene or something that explains who Shar is, at least giving some basic knowledge and information to the player so when Shadowheart does her "big reveal" the player isn't wondering, "Shar who?"
Sometimes I wish the plot would be more focused. They could have created a fine story, or the beginning of a larger story, on the Shar vs Selûne premise. The goddesses of Light and Darkness and their Clergy battling it out hundreds of years ago would have made for an amazing opening cinematic without spoiling any of the plot. It would have also set the stage for Shadowhearts big reveal.

There's just so many ingredients and factions in the BG3 plot right from the start it's really difficult to focus.

Joined: Jul 2021
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
Originally Posted by 1varangian
The goddesses of Light and Darkness and their Clergy battling it out hundreds of years ago

Lathander: "Ey, what am I, chopped livah?"

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The problem isn't the means, it's the execution. They already do have plenty of books in circulation. Some out here are arguing that the books should be enough or that the players should research who Shar is on their own.

The other side of it is that some think that there should be some cutscene or something that explains who Shar is, at least giving some basic knowledge and information to the player so when Shadowheart does her "big reveal" the player isn't wondering, "Shar who?"
Sometimes I wish the plot would be more focused. They could have created a fine story, or the beginning of a larger story, on the Shar vs Selûne premise. The goddesses of Light and Darkness and their Clergy battling it out hundreds of years ago would have made for an amazing opening cinematic without spoiling any of the plot. It would have also set the stage for Shadowhearts big reveal.

There's just so many ingredients and factions in the BG3 plot right from the start it's really difficult to focus.

Right now, it still feels so unfinished. I'm playing through Grymforge and wondering why Shadowheart is dead silent. I would think she'd be more vocal about... Everything! Even in the Underdark, she's eerily silent, unlike through most of the EA up to that point. Shouldn't she be fangirling?

Last edited by GM4Him; 01/11/21 10:08 PM.
Joined: Aug 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2020
I think the problem with leaving most of the Shar information to in-game books and such is that it's pretty likely that the player just...won't retain the information even if they did read it. There's a bunch of books around the game, all with all kinds of info, most of it unrelated to the main story. Why should the players do more than think "oh, this story is neat" and just file it away in the back of their minds never to be touched again? I'm all for expecting more of players, but for new players, context needs to be given. Regardless of Larian's intepretation of Shar, they should give us a concrete sense of who Shar is in the setting so that we can properly roleplay our characters. It's as simple as this; we should know what our characters know. If our character is expected to know who Shar is, and the dialogue options for the reveal imply that they do know, then we should know as players. ESPECIALLY because this is tied to the story of a major character. Larian is still telling a story, and if they want this reveal to land, then they should make sure we have the information needed to give this reveal an emotional context. This is a story, you do actually have to give players clear information sometimes so they know what's important and what to care about.

And just to touch on whether or not Shadowheart's armor is too obvious, I think the problem is that we know explicitly she's a cleric, it's something anyone can see. Sure, maybe if she were a fighter or a rogue or an average person, people coudl brush off the disks as jewellry. But Shadowheart is a cleric, it's observable that she's a cleric, someone who is, by definition, deeply devoted to a deity. So we take that given information, add that to the fact she's decked out in a particular symbol, then it's only logical to assume, even if you don't know about Shar, that the black disk is related to the deity she serves. If I saw someone who prominently wore a bunch of red squares as jewerly, I would assume they just liked the look. But if that same person told me that they're deeply religious, I might start to assume that those squares are related to their religion somehow. And the fact we can't ask Shadowheart what deity she worships is weird in that regard. Even if she lied, that'd make sense and be fine. But the story as it is gives us no choice but to not be interested.

Joined: May 2019
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2019
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Or you know, instead of focusing on how many memes they can generate, Larian could do some worldbuilding, like a normal RPG - you know the stuff: minor quests that flesh out the world, highlights larger conflicts, important concepts and characters.

Namedropping stuff and having easter eggs "for fans" is fine. Relying on outside sources to create a connection with their characters is not.
Agreed.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I think the problem with leaving most of the Shar information to in-game books and such is that it's pretty likely that the player just...won't retain the information even if they did read it. There's a bunch of books around the game, all with all kinds of info, most of it unrelated to the main story. Why should the players do more than think "oh, this story is neat" and just file it away in the back of their minds never to be touched again? I'm all for expecting more of players, but for new players, context needs to be given. Regardless of Larian's intepretation of Shar, they should give us a concrete sense of who Shar is in the setting so that we can properly roleplay our characters. It's as simple as this; we should know what our characters know. If our character is expected to know who Shar is, and the dialogue options for the reveal imply that they do know, then we should know as players. ESPECIALLY because this is tied to the story of a major character. Larian is still telling a story, and if they want this reveal to land, then they should make sure we have the information needed to give this reveal an emotional context. This is a story, you do actually have to give players clear information sometimes so they know what's important and what to care about.

Here's the problem, your first sentence, and then your last sentence here. They do provide cursory information. The problem is that the player can, and in this case likely did, fail to make the connection between "evil Goddess that wipes her followers minds" and "that can be problematic". How deep do they have to dive into any specific lore topic to make it clear? Retention of information, and actually using what is provided, aren't the developers mess up. If nothing was provided, sure, but some information is provided. If someone is "speed running" it, and misses out on key things, that's on them. Note here that I'm not talking about an actual "world's fastest clear" here, but as with my example from swtor above, where players skipped the cutscene that explains what's happened on the planet, and didn't understand why the planet was essentially dead. So for this, things like "I don't have the time, or desire, to read the books provided in game, if I wanted to read, I'd hit Google", or similar. I'm left with the impression that we're going to need little signs at the "entrance" to various areas, explaining everything that the area is about, and some players would be complaining about all the exposition.

Again, at some point, yes, a player is going to have to do some footwork. Whether that's searching for lore books in game, or outside of the game on their own. This may come as a shock to some of us here, but that's why Wikis for these kinds of games exist. When I started in the TES series, with Oblivion, I had no idea about the lore. After over 1000 hours in Skyrim, and something close to that in ESO, I still don't. But I learned enough from the books that I've read in Oblivion, Skyrim and ESO that I have a handle on what's going on, and if anything comes up that I just don't understand, there are resources where I can look it up. Ironically, those resources are based on what other players found, in game(s) that I either didn't play, or that I missed in one of the games I did play. They dug a lot deeper into the provided lore than I did. The problem with doing something like this here is that there is 50 years of lore behind this game. If this is confusing a new player to the franchise, not just Baldur's Gate, but DnD in general, they're in for a really bumpy ride.

Quote
And just to touch on whether or not Shadowheart's armor is too obvious, I think the problem is that we know explicitly she's a cleric, it's something anyone can see. Sure, maybe if she were a fighter or a rogue or an average person, people coudl brush off the disks as jewellry. But Shadowheart is a cleric, it's observable that she's a cleric, someone who is, by definition, deeply devoted to a deity. So we take that given information, add that to the fact she's decked out in a particular symbol, then it's only logical to assume, even if you don't know about Shar, that the black disk is related to the deity she serves. If I saw someone who prominently wore a bunch of red squares as jewerly, I would assume they just liked the look. But if that same person told me that they're deeply religious, I might start to assume that those squares are related to their religion somehow. And the fact we can't ask Shadowheart what deity she worships is weird in that regard. Even if she lied, that'd make sense and be fine. But the story as it is gives us no choice but to not be interested.

Joined: Oct 2021
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Oct 2021
Obviously, her armor circle is a lid trapdoor spider. Haha

[img] https://twitter.com/j_motoki/status/1455286671101005826?s=21 [/img]

Last edited by organichilimango; 02/11/21 01:59 PM. Reason: .
Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by organichilimango
Obviously, her armor circle is a lid trapdoor spider. Haha

[img] https://twitter.com/j_motoki/status/1455286671101005826?s=21 [/img]

I hope you don't get in trouble with the arachnophobes... aargh

Joined: Nov 2020
Banned
Offline
Banned
Joined: Nov 2020
Here's the thing, the comparison you made to your own experience in Oblivion is completely off-mark. This thread isn't about wether or not the game should give you extensive exposition on background that, if known, would enrich a player's experience. This thread is about the game failing to convey information about something it, itself, is trying to treat, namely Shar.

In other words, this is not A New Hope not telling you the code of the Jedi, or of the Sith, or about the events of the Prequels. That stuff doesn't matter as far as the story a New Hope tries to tell goes. This is a New Hope completely neglicting to sell you on the Force -- what it is, what it means and what it does -- because whatever, they'll figure it out. And if not give 'em postcards, it's all the same.

Like, staying with this example, if George Luca had done that, and hadn't he hired Sir Alec Guinness to do precisely just that -- sell the audience on space magic -- i'm pretty positive Star Wars would be remembered as A New Hope, some wonky sci-fi movie from the 70s.

Good writing, really, is what it comes down to, and giving the viewer/reader/player every tool they need to comprehend and appreciate in full the story you set out to tell them.

Joined: Aug 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2020
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I think the problem with leaving most of the Shar information to in-game books and such is that it's pretty likely that the player just...won't retain the information even if they did read it. There's a bunch of books around the game, all with all kinds of info, most of it unrelated to the main story. Why should the players do more than think "oh, this story is neat" and just file it away in the back of their minds never to be touched again? I'm all for expecting more of players, but for new players, context needs to be given. Regardless of Larian's intepretation of Shar, they should give us a concrete sense of who Shar is in the setting so that we can properly roleplay our characters. It's as simple as this; we should know what our characters know. If our character is expected to know who Shar is, and the dialogue options for the reveal imply that they do know, then we should know as players. ESPECIALLY because this is tied to the story of a major character. Larian is still telling a story, and if they want this reveal to land, then they should make sure we have the information needed to give this reveal an emotional context. This is a story, you do actually have to give players clear information sometimes so they know what's important and what to care about.

Here's the problem, your first sentence, and then your last sentence here. They do provide cursory information. The problem is that the player can, and in this case likely did, fail to make the connection between "evil Goddess that wipes her followers minds" and "that can be problematic". How deep do they have to dive into any specific lore topic to make it clear? Retention of information, and actually using what is provided, aren't the developers mess up. If nothing was provided, sure, but some information is provided. If someone is "speed running" it, and misses out on key things, that's on them. Note here that I'm not talking about an actual "world's fastest clear" here, but as with my example from swtor above, where players skipped the cutscene that explains what's happened on the planet, and didn't understand why the planet was essentially dead. So for this, things like "I don't have the time, or desire, to read the books provided in game, if I wanted to read, I'd hit Google", or similar. I'm left with the impression that we're going to need little signs at the "entrance" to various areas, explaining everything that the area is about, and some players would be complaining about all the exposition.

Again, at some point, yes, a player is going to have to do some footwork. Whether that's searching for lore books in game, or outside of the game on their own. This may come as a shock to some of us here, but that's why Wikis for these kinds of games exist. When I started in the TES series, with Oblivion, I had no idea about the lore. After over 1000 hours in Skyrim, and something close to that in ESO, I still don't. But I learned enough from the books that I've read in Oblivion, Skyrim and ESO that I have a handle on what's going on, and if anything comes up that I just don't understand, there are resources where I can look it up. Ironically, those resources are based on what other players found, in game(s) that I either didn't play, or that I missed in one of the games I did play. They dug a lot deeper into the provided lore than I did. The problem with doing something like this here is that there is 50 years of lore behind this game. If this is confusing a new player to the franchise, not just Baldur's Gate, but DnD in general, they're in for a really bumpy ride.

I'm someone who generally likes to read lore books in rpgs, I don't mind doing reading in RPGs at all, but this is a major part of the story we're talking about. This is different from skipping a cutscene. A cutscene specifically is meant to convey information that's probably going to be relevant to the plot. What other way do devs have to reliably convey information? But I as someone who LOVES crpgs, have been trained to think that ingame books aren't going to include things that will be necessary to appreciating major plot points. You're right that at some point the player has to take responsibiilty, but where do you think that point should be? I think that conveying information that's important to allow a major character twist to be impactful through a medium that in general conveys only extra information that doesn't impact the body of the story otherwise isn't where that line should be drawn. To give another example, it would be like in Mass Effect 2, when you find out that Mordin was part of the team that created the Genophage, but until that point the only way to know anything about the genophage would be if you'd read letters and popups around the game. Not only might you miss them, but just reading that information won't get across the emotional and narrative weight you should be feeling.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Here's the thing, the comparison you made to your own experience in Oblivion is completely off-mark. This thread isn't about wether or not the game should give you extensive exposition on background that, if known, would enrich a player's experience. This thread is about the game failing to convey information about something it, itself, is trying to treat, namely Shar.

In other words, this is not A New Hope not telling you the code of the Jedi, or of the Sith, or about the events of the Prequels. That stuff doesn't matter as far as the story a New Hope tries to tell goes. This is a New Hope completely neglicting to sell you on the Force -- what it is, what it means and what it does -- because whatever, they'll figure it out. And if not give 'em postcards, it's all the same.

Like, staying with this example, if George Luca had done that, and hadn't he hired Sir Alec Guinness to do precisely just that -- sell the audience on space magic -- i'm pretty positive Star Wars would be remembered as A New Hope, some wonky sci-fi movie from the 70s.

Good writing, really, is what it comes down to, and giving the viewer/reader/player every tool they need to comprehend and appreciate in full the story you set out to tell them.

Actually, I see it as being right on the mark. A new player, in a new (to me) franchise. Thread is about a new player being confused about some dialog concerning a deity that they don't understand. What was Oblivion about? Oh yeah, a deity that I know absolutely nothing about, trying to take over the world. TES general trope: I am a prisoner, thrust into the middle of a world shattering event, from the very beginning of the game, and if Oblivion is my first game in the series, which for me it was, then I'm completely in the dark about what any of that means, unless I pay attention to the lore when it's presented, even if it's presented in books, which a lot of it is.

Joined: Nov 2020
Banned
Offline
Banned
Joined: Nov 2020
Um, what? All you know, and all anyone knows, at the beginning of Oblivion is that the Emperor got axed. The Emperor, voice acted by Patrick Stewart, whom you met and talked to as to give weight and meaning to the world shattering event that by itself would have meant nothing to any new player. You learn about Mehrunes Dagon way later on, and the game eases you into that too. You're not just dropped into some random inn, given a quest and asked to read on some random book about some God you know nothing about, because that would suck.

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
This might not be related, but how did you guys rationalize having Viconia in your party. We're not told much about Shar in that game except from Viconia herself, and while that game had little to do with Shar or Selune it is a similar dynamic to Shadowheart. Of course Vic was pretty different in BG:I to II

Also maybe the threads just gotten so long that the original point has already been dealt with but I thought that the issue was that currently the only way to get to the Shar reveal was through insight checks involving Shadowheart, when a valid way of doing it would be through a (currently absent) History or Religion check. But it seems the conversation now is more about how the game is rolling out it's world's exposition. With a bunch of straw-'new players' involved, a lot of the arguments about it seem to revolve around assumptions around what is and isn't common knowledge in the Baldur's Gate area about Shar and her followers trappings. We currently do get quite a bit of exposition around primarily the Dark Justiciar with seemly a great deal more to come from Moonrise Towers, considering the importance of the Weapon and it's interest to all parties, Shar included, I think it's reasonable to assume that a great deal of exposition will be given to us around her and Selune as the game progresses.

I guess what I'm saying is, complaining about how the exposition is rolled out isn't totally warranted. I would have liked a prologue for better insight into our character, but I think expecting a game to stop, bring everyone up to speed on hundreds of years of FR lore, when they could and should 'show' us instead is fine.

Also consider that we're still getting more scenes and dialogues added to the EA, some of this might be premature too.

Page 18 of 23 1 2 16 17 18 19 20 22 23

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5