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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Meh seriously after the PTSD, here is another theory to explain something that does not make any sense.

Once again like in many threads, when the story of BG3 lack of coherence people are crafting theory in their head to explain what is not possible to explain.

When people have to imagine things in their head for such details... There's really something going wrong.

It makes perfect sense that he's used to giving orders to more people. This isn't bending over backwards mental gymnastics.

If anything, I feel like people are bending over backwards trying to find reasons to hate.

Yeah perfect sense that he's at the door asking to open because they have been slauthered then suddenly forgot they have been slauthered.

He's shouting "form a line" like a captain would in an army. It's not a reason to hate, it's something I found ridiculous since day 1 and that I still find wierd in every playthrough.

No problem if you don't but don't try to get into Aradin's head. He hasn't write BG3's dialogs. But maybe Larian's writer when it was time to write this cinematic were thinking something like you......... (Probably not).

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Originally Posted by JandK
If anything, I feel like people are bending over backwards trying to find reasons to hate.
+1


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
If anything, I feel like people are bending over backwards trying to find reasons to hate.
+1

+1. Almost feel sorry for them. Must suck to be a hater who can't enjoy something.

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Originally Posted by TripSin
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
If anything, I feel like people are bending over backwards trying to find reasons to hate.
+1

+1. Almost feel sorry for them. Must suck to be a hater who can't enjoy something.
Because any criticism is "hating" and obviously anyone who finds flaws and verbalizes them is on a mission of hatred. Obviously.

Meanwhile, certain people here can look at something slowly fall out of the backside of a dog and still insist that if Larian made the dog then Larian made what came out of the dog and therefore it's a fantastic chocolate brownie. A bit mushy, sure, but it still tastes great.

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Cute effort, but unless you find this sentence in at least single another topic ... not "any criticism" is "hating" ...
Just stupid one. wink


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
If anything, I feel like people are bending over backwards trying to find reasons to hate.
+1

Sometimes it feels as if, but I don't fully agree here.

I think it's ok to point out things one finds noteworthy - and while I don't get a feeling of cringe about anything in this game (I had one in D:OS2, but it was very minor), I can understand that some people may feel different.

However, so far I enjoyed my time with BG3 a lot, it's a game which still in EA provides MUCH more fun and playtime than many titles by big publishers (looking at Electronic Arts and Activision).

On the other hand: criticizing is not hating, I understand that one can feel this way about naming of the characters - to my ears they all sound nice and I really feel like that the companions are who they are.

Looking forward to more adventures with my gang. <3


Larian, please improve QoL / UX.

And give us Halsin as companion, please.
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Cute effort, but unless you find this sentence in at least single another topic ... not "any criticism" is "hating" ...
Just stupid one. wink

Oh okay, so you're the one who determines whether people's opinions are stupid or not.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Cute effort, but unless you find this sentence in at least single another topic ... not "any criticism" is "hating" ...
Just stupid one. wink
But are you capable of seeing any criticism as not stupid?

I mean, we literally have a "secret" worshipper of a god of secrecy and shadow who has the super unconspicuous name "Shadowheart". It's a bit like having a Soviet spy that goes undercover as a totally normal tenth generation American who goes by the single name Stalinesque. Yeah, I'm sure McCarthy will totally let that one fly, won't he? For bonus points, Stalinesque should fancy having patches with hammers sewn onto his clothes and he should spit and curse every time he sees something capitalist. Will totally blend in, obviously.

That's basically Shadow doing her thing until she emotionally confides in Tav that actually she's, oh my gosh, a Shar worshipper on a super secret mission??! The cringe bit isn't so much Shadow herself, I suppose, but rather the whole setup. Everything about her screams "not a typical cleric" and none of her behavior suggests she's actually a goodly-aligned cleric either, and yet the scene is trying to make it out as if it's a big shock and totally surprising that she's "not what she seems" and also a worshipper of an evil god.

The "I'm a shar worshipper" scene would be so much stronger if we ever had a reason to think of Shadowheart as something other than a cleric with a super fake name who doesn't appear to be aligned with a good god, but being played seriously here it just doesn't work, to the point where the whole thing is more than a little bit cringe.

And yet pointing this out is bending over backwards to hate on the game?

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Oh okay, so you're the one who determines whether people's opinions are stupid or not.
Once again, cute effort ...

But if you read abowe, you can see this:
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
If anything, I feel like people are bending over backwards trying to find reasons to hate.
+1
Do you know what that means? :P
"I" was not the judge here ... wink :P

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
But are you capable of seeing any criticism as not stupid?
I believe i am ... (dont we all?)
Its common sence ... once one person is complaining about something that majority of other people clearly conciders to be minor detail not worthy of any atention ... its stupid. smile

I mean we could be nitpicking every single sentence in game and provide multiple hours of analyse to decide if that particular sentence should, or should not be said as it is ...
But isnt there more pressing matters? laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
I mean, we literally have a "secret" worshipper of a god of secrecy and shadow who has the super unconspicuous name "Shadowheart". It's a bit like having a Soviet spy that goes undercover as a totally normal tenth generation American who goes by the single name Stalinesque. Yeah, I'm sure McCarthy will totally let that one fly, won't he? For bonus points, Stalinesque should fancy having patches with hammers sewn onto his clothes and he should spit and curse every time he sees something capitalist. Will totally blend in, obviously.

That's basically Shadow doing her thing until she emotionally confides in Tav that actually she's, oh my gosh, a Shar worshipper on a super secret mission??! The cringe bit isn't so much Shadow herself, I suppose, but rather the whole setup. Everything about her screams "not a typical cleric" and none of her behavior suggests she's actually a goodly-aligned cleric either, and yet the scene is trying to make it out as if it's a big shock and totally surprising that she's "not what she seems" and also a worshipper of an evil god.

The "I'm a shar worshipper" scene would be so much stronger if we ever had a reason to think of Shadowheart as something other than a cleric with a super fake name who doesn't appear to be aligned with a good god, but being played seriously here it just doesn't work, to the point where the whole thing is more than a little bit cringe.
This i would use as perfect example of those "more pressing matters" laugh

I really honestly and without a single doubt concider "whole Shadowhearts setup being wrong" as much bigger narative problem than the fact that Aradin yelled "form a line" while there was only two of them to form it. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
And yet pointing this out is bending over backwards to hate on the game?
Nope, where did you get that?


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We live in a world of "Smith's", " Carpenter's", "Barber's", "Weaver's", "Forrester's", "Farmer's", "Lake's", "River's, "Ocean's" , Gunn's", and so on; not to forget one named folks such as Madonna, Sting, Bono, The Edge, ad infinitum. And let's not leave out almost every single rap musician , DJ and VJ out there, with nouns and adjectives as names. And this is in "modern" times.

Shadowheart is no more or less a stretch, and name variants such as Gale and Wyll (for Gail and Will) are about as normal as anything now. Many of them also are borne by both males and females.

I see nothing wrong with the names chosen.

I find it far more objectionable to enter an MMO game, and run across 15 Drizzt's, a dozen Elminster's, and a zillion folks named Godkiller, Kingslayer, UberDude, BestThief and the like.

But, I'm sure someone can come up with a mod allowing you to change Shadow's name to Jane Doe, Karen, or Susie Sunlight.

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Originally Posted by ArvGuy
The "I'm a shar worshipper" scene would be so much stronger if we ever had a reason to think of Shadowheart as something other than a cleric with a super fake name who doesn't appear to be aligned with a good god, but being played seriously here it just doesn't work, to the point where the whole thing is more than a little bit cringe.

The scene is also weak because a supposedly "big reveal" is done through dialogue. "Yes, I worship Shar bla bla..." And how many opportunities did they have for a better scene that would show instead of telling?

The shrine of Selûne with her statue in it. Some moonlighty magic could awaken and probe Shadowheart which sends her into channeling Shar's dark magic which dramatically shatters Selûne's statue? Establish the Shar vs Selûne conflict as real at the same time. The goblin fort is a full on Temple of Selûne. They are being set up as big players in the plot but it's not going anywhere and the conflict between them isn't realized even though you have a Sharran in the party.

They're also missing the mark on Shadowheart's visual transformation once you find out. She could turn from looking ordinary to wearing Sharran armor to really drive the reveal home. But no. How can she transform when she already had a Sharran armor and a symbol on her forehead before we were supposed to know?

It's almost like they think the Origin stories justify some really lackluster writing. Because you can play as her, there can be no secrets and they're not even trying. If this is what it means to have playable companions in an RPG, I don't ever want to see this feature in a game again.

edit: The cringe level with Astarion's vampire "reveal" is just as high as with Shadowheart's "reveal". This kind of writing really doesn't help you like these characters at all. Although with Astarion it's more of a visual problem. They could still correct it and give him a "high elf" form without the fangs and red eyes and the character would be much better for it.

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Another problem with those reveals (and other things like the "romance") is that they happen too fast. No idea if that is because Larian wanted to cram it into the EA, but after a few hours you don't have a connection to the characters (and the way most characters behave certainly does not help) and thus you do not care about the big reveal. And that is in addition to you never really have a reason to believe that they are anything else because its so obvious.

Compare that to Wrath of the Righteous

Camillas reveal at the end, if you follow her quest line.
You could already suspect it, but most people still had doubts about her at least. Also, it wasn't obvious from the start who she is with a cringe name like Shadowheart wearing Shar symbols. You had hints, but that is all.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Another problem with those reveals (and other things like the "romance") is that they happen too fast. No idea if that is because Larian wanted to cram it into the EA, but after a few hours you don't have a connection to the characters (and the way most characters behave certainly does not help) and thus you do not care about the big reveal. And that is in addition to you never really have a reason to believe that they are anything else because its so obvious.
Spot on. Don't care about the big reveals, and don't believe in the forced romances without any foundation. I'd just like to ask the writers why they are rushing so much and the gameplay designers why they feel they must create so many gimmicks and hoops and loops for combat. I'd like to believe the story and the characters.

If they can't get this stuff right, BG3 will just be a "fun romp" with funny combat with easy repetitive exploits. It needs to be much more than that.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Another problem with those reveals (and other things like the "romance") is that they happen too fast. No idea if that is because Larian wanted to cram it into the EA, but after a few hours you don't have a connection to the characters (and the way most characters behave certainly does not help) and thus you do not care about the big reveal. And that is in addition to you never really have a reason to believe that they are anything else because its so obvious.

Compare that to Wrath of the Righteous

Camillas reveal at the end, if you follow her quest line.
You could already suspect it, but most people still had doubts about her at least. Also, it wasn't obvious from the start who she is with a cringe name like Shadowheart wearing Shar symbols. You had hints, but that is all.


Camellia literally has an amulet to hide alignment. If that's not enough as a big red flag "I'm evil" then I don't know what would be needed.
The Owlcat doesn't even try to hide it.
Already at the first meeting, you can easily guess that something is wrong.
If, however, the player missed it, Owlcat made sure that her combat dialogue clearly indicated a strong mental imbalance.

By the way this is probably the worst written evil companion I've ever seen in a game. Already Dorn was much better written.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Oh okay, so you're the one who determines whether people's opinions are stupid or not.
Once again, cute effort ...

But if you read abowe, you can see this:
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
If anything, I feel like people are bending over backwards trying to find reasons to hate.
+1
Do you know what that means? :P
"I" was not the judge here ... wink :P
No, but you +1'd the person who decided they were the judge, didn't you? I don't know what +1 means in Czech, but in the languages I do speak, it does not typically mean "I completely disagree". smile

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I really honestly and without a single doubt concider "whole Shadowhearts setup being wrong" as much bigger narative problem than the fact that Aradin yelled "form a line" while there was only two of them to form it. laugh
Obviously the "form a line" thing is just a momentary thing of very minor importance, a small wrinkle that feels a bit daft but whatever, whereas the way Shadowheart's narrative is played has a lot bigger impact since it's being done over hours and affects a major character. Obviously there's a difference.

But for the purpose of "weird things that makes one cringe", wouldn't you say that a somewhat seasoned mercenary commander telling his one remaining melee grunt to "form a line" is a bit silly? It's like having a Roman commander tell his one surviving legionary to form a testudo. An order to "form a line" delivered in good form, with authority, sounds like something a combat veteran in command might say, but the comment doesn't fit the actual context in which it is being used, and the actual execution of said line doesn't help. "Form lines" or "Form up" or "Hold the corner" would all have worked a little better, particularly if he'd then also held the corner with his grunt and kept the gobbos off the archer.

But yes, this is indeed a very, very minor thing. It's still a bit silly, though. At least I personally think so. laugh

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Aradin clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the shed or the best commander. His "form the line" line actually makes sense in that context. He's trying to lead his band in a stressful situation even though he has little grasp of military tactics. And the line is so unimportant we shouldn't really be talking about it but there I go.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Another problem with those reveals (and other things like the "romance") is that they happen too fast. No idea if that is because Larian wanted to cram it into the EA, but after a few hours you don't have a connection to the characters (and the way most characters behave certainly does not help) and thus you do not care about the big reveal. And that is in addition to you never really have a reason to believe that they are anything else because its so obvious.
There was countless topics about this ...
Yes players are used to get "romance that need to be build through whole game just to get that sweet single night together" ... and no, that is not what we are geting (with most companions) here ... what we are geting here is "im horny, wanna bang? OK" kind of thing (again, not with all companions).

Wich is perfectly okey and understandable ... if you dont want that kind of relationship, simply pick "go sleep alone". :P

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
No, but you +1'd the person who decided they were the judge, didn't you? I don't know what +1 means in Czech, but in the languages I do speak, it does not typically mean "I completely disagree". smile
I just love how is this topic full of trying to catch each other and failing. laugh

Exactly as you said ... it does not mean "i completely disagree" ... indeed it means the oposite "i completely agree" ...
Yet, and i admit i might be wrong on how this works in english ... but in languages i speak good enough, agreeing with someone judgement is still something different, than being a judge yourself. wink :P

So ... cute effort, but missed again ... hope you have as much fun as i do. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Obviously the "form a line" thing is just a momentary thing of very minor importance, a small wrinkle that feels a bit daft
Sounds to me almost like you also agree with judgement ...
Carefull now, you could fall into your own trap. laugh :P

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
But for the purpose of "weird things that makes one cringe", wouldn't you say that a somewhat seasoned mercenary commander telling his one remaining melee grunt to "form a line" is a bit silly?
Well, if you really wish to know all you need to do is read previous conversations. laugh

But ... no. smile
It depends on few factors you need to keep in mind:

First of all is situation ...
Do you have time to concider your situation, find a best strategy and potentialy discuss it with others ... or are you in heat of battle, where you yell the first things that come to your mind, so at least something is happening? :P > B is corect.

Second is length of order ...
I mean we all know that Goblin is yelling orders for every type of trooper he have with him ... and i dunno about you, but i was allways like "Ugh, shut up and die finaly ... i want to play, not watch your monologue here." > So, even tho "cover our archer" would make more sence and being lot more fiting ... short order is better here once again.

Third there is definition ...
As far as i know, once you have at least two people, they can "form a line" ... it would be incredibly short line no doubt about it, but it will be a line. > So his order makes perfect sence.

Then there is question about importance ...
As we both agreed allready, this is so minor problem so even if he would indeed yell "form a testudo" i would quite honestly not even care. laugh

And last but not least, what else do you want? ...
I mean so far nobody was able to submit single as short and more effective comand (and i admit that by saying nobody i mean Maximuuus, since noone else even cared enough) ... so, until you have any replacement in mind, even this is still better than him being silence with subtitles on screen saying:
"Cinematic pending, we are curently trying to figure some comand that would fit to give single soldier in such screwed situation Aradin and his group are." laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
It's like having a Roman commander tell his one surviving legionary to form a testudo.
Well, i was unable to find minimum number of Soldiers need to form tetudo ... but i would dare to say that this formation would be litteraly impossible with two soldiers. laugh
So, there is difference. :P

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
An order to "form a line" delivered in good form, with authority, sounds like something a combat veteran in command might say, but the comment doesn't fit the actual context in which it is being used, and the actual execution of said line doesn't help.
What do you mean actual execution?
I dont claim that i was in army (in czech we dont have compulsory military service anymore) but as far as i know, since my Sibling is working in military in last few years, formations are codenamed ...

So even the fact that he runned forward during yelling that order might be fitting the formation since "line" could easily be just fomration that is suppose to keep meele enemies occupied, while ranged damage dealers kill the others.

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
"Form lines" or "Form up" or "Hold the corner" would all have worked a little better, particularly if he'd then also held the corner with his grunt and kept the gobbos off the archer.
Cant imagine how "form lines" would be better, if people are complaining that you are unable to form single line. laugh
Using plural would make this whole situation even more silly. laugh

"Form up" i like ... that would be fitting, presuming they use only single formation, wich would be also silly, just for different reasons. laugh

"Hold the corner" ... i mean this isnt bad ... but since AI is forcing meele characters to push enemies out of that corner, run towards them and fight there ... its not quite what will happen.

Still "form a line" seem best to me, sory. :-/

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
But yes, this is indeed a very, very minor thing. It's still a bit silly, though. At least I personally think so. laugh
smile


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Cringe.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Ixal
Another problem with those reveals (and other things like the "romance") is that they happen too fast. No idea if that is because Larian wanted to cram it into the EA, but after a few hours you don't have a connection to the characters (and the way most characters behave certainly does not help) and thus you do not care about the big reveal. And that is in addition to you never really have a reason to believe that they are anything else because its so obvious.
There was countless topics about this ...
Yes players are used to get "romance that need to be build through whole game just to get that sweet single night together" ... and no, that is not what we are geting (with most companions) here ... what we are geting here is "im horny, wanna bang? OK" kind of thing (again, not with all companions).

Wich is perfectly okey and understandable ... if you dont want that kind of relationship, simply pick "go sleep alone". :P
How does that solve the problem? It's like arguing that if people don't want to eat a shit sandwich, they should just starve to death. That's an argument that justifies even the most shitty of decisions in even the shittiest of games. Don't like pay to win bullshit? Just grind or fuck off and play something else. Don't like loot box gambling? Just fuck then.

I mean, pardon my blunt speech but rather than explaining how something is not actually a problem, what you are saying is literally that if people don't like the taste of the backside of a dog then they should just not play the game, ignoring how doggie bottom is fairly universally considered bad.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
No, but you +1'd the person who decided they were the judge, didn't you? I don't know what +1 means in Czech, but in the languages I do speak, it does not typically mean "I completely disagree". smile
I just love how is this topic full of trying to catch each other and failing. laugh

Exactly as you said ... it does not mean "i completely disagree" ... indeed it means the oposite "i completely agree" ...
Yet, and i admit i might be wrong on how this works in english ... but in languages i speak good enough, agreeing with someone judgement is still something different, than being a judge yourself. wink :P

So ... cute effort, but missed again ... hope you have as much fun as i do. laugh
To put this bluntly, you're getting into very slippery territory if you want to argue that just being moral support of an action totally alleviates you of the moral consequences of said action. More clearly put, if someone is being a bully towards someone else and you go pat the bully on the back and say "well done, I totally agree with what you did", you're clearly not better than the bully, are you?

So yeah, cute effort with the lame "I wasn't me", but that was the catchfrase in a song a while back about a guy who feels bad about cheating on his girlfriend. It's not actually a rebuttal in this particular situation. And it's frankly a bit silly that I even have to explain that.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
But for the purpose of "weird things that makes one cringe", wouldn't you say that a somewhat seasoned mercenary commander telling his one remaining melee grunt to "form a line" is a bit silly?
Well, if you really wish to know all you need to do is read previous conversations. laugh

But ... no. smile
It depends on few factors you need to keep in mind:

First of all is situation ...
Do you have time to concider your situation, find a best strategy and potentialy discuss it with others ... or are you in heat of battle, where you yell the first things that come to your mind, so at least something is happening? :P > B is corect.

Second is length of order ...
I mean we all know that Goblin is yelling orders for every type of trooper he have with him ... and i dunno about you, but i was allways like "Ugh, shut up and die finaly ... i want to play, not watch your monologue here." > So, even tho "cover our archer" would make more sence and being lot more fiting ... short order is better here once again.

Third there is definition ...
As far as i know, once you have at least two people, they can "form a line" ... it would be incredibly short line no doubt about it, but it will be a line. > So his order makes perfect sence.

Then there is question about importance ...
As we both agreed allready, this is so minor problem so even if he would indeed yell "form a testudo" i would quite honestly not even care. laugh

And last but not least, what else do you want? ...
I mean so far nobody was able to submit single as short and more effective comand (and i admit that by saying nobody i mean Maximuuus, since noone else even cared enough) ... so, until you have any replacement in mind, even this is still better than him being silence with subtitles on screen saying:
"Cinematic pending, we are curently trying to figure some comand that would fit to give single soldier in such screwed situation Aradin and his group are." laugh
I'm not going to cut this into bits, because that's just aggravating to look at. Yes, he had time to consider his tactical situation because there's clearly not much to consider. Running is out, individual engagement means dying in detail, so the only option is a defensive stance with focus on coherency. Length of order is a rebuttal that makes no sense. If they have time to form up then he has the time to give a coherent order, and indeed giving something that is not a coherent order is the hallmark of a rubbish commander that should be demoted on the spot. This is not good guys and bad guys in the backyard with wooden swords, this is life or death, do or die horribly kind of stuff.

And then definition, "form a line" means forming a battle line rather than standing around like a mob. A line is singular and in context it has to be in formation, meaning both grunts stand shoulder to shoulder. Apparently no order is given to the archer or the archer willfully disobeys a direct order. Neither is good. Ordering to "Form up" means they fight in formation but use their own judgment to find their place in the formation. Ordering to "form lines", notice the plural, means forming up according to type. It's been done since the Romans so yes, warriors with any kind of training, even mercs for rent, would certainly understand the concept intuitively and implicitly.

Execution, do the three mercs then following the tactics ordered by the commander? They do not. They're not holding a tight formation in the corner where the archer is shielded and the walls protect their flanks. They are not making the numerical advantage of the enemy count for as little as possible. They are not making themselves hard to flank and gang up on.

Lastly, two people cannot possibly manage to not form a line. They could be running in zig-zag and they'd still be forming a line. So the argument that two people can form a line literally makes no sense, because could they ever not do that? If that's the interpretation then he might as well have shouted "continue to exist!!" and the effect would be the same. Point being, it's just not a good order. And despite all the creative back-bending of you and others, there's still no way to interpret it as a good order.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
An order to "form a line" delivered in good form, with authority, sounds like something a combat veteran in command might say, but the comment doesn't fit the actual context in which it is being used, and the actual execution of said line doesn't help.
What do you mean actual execution?
I dont claim that i was in army (in czech we dont have compulsory military service anymore) but as far as i know, since my Sibling is working in military in last few years, formations are codenamed ...

So even the fact that he runned forward during yelling that order might be fitting the formation since "line" could easily be just fomration that is suppose to keep meele enemies occupied, while ranged damage dealers kill the others.
If your argument for him talking nonsense is that he's just talking in code then any discussion at any time becomes irrelevant because anything is just code. At that point you've essentially accepted any disconnect at any time between what is said by characters and what they do, because it's just code. It extremely obviously makes zero sense to even have that communication happen in the first place in a medium like a game if the communication isn't coherent or "in a code" that is never given to the player. This is so silly that it pretty much has to be bait.

By the by, modern militaries don't fight in formations like this. It worked great with medieval weapons. It is awful when some jerk with a machinegun can wipe everybody out in an instant. Or multiple jerks with machineguns. Or some joker with a mortar. Or an absolute comedian with a precision rifle from half a mile away. Or tank people, artillery people, something airborne, or even a clown with a radio-detonated device and binoculars. You get the picture, I'm sure. If not, ask your sibling.

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Originally Posted by ArvGuy
To put this bluntly, you're getting into very slippery territory if you want to argue that just being moral support of an action totally alleviates you of the moral consequences of said action.
That is completely different topic ...
We were not talking here about any moral consequences ... just about action itself.

I mean if i see you that you broke a window by a ball and dont tell on you ... im your acomplice, and i share guilt (if they find out) no doubt about that.
But i still didnt broke it. wink

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
More clearly put, if someone is being a bully towards someone else and you go pat the bully on the back and say "well done, I totally agree with what you did", you're clearly not better than the bully, are you?
I gues it depends on situation ...
I know you wish to put me into bad light ... but it would not go so easly ...

To use your own example against you:
I could aswell claim that Maximuuus was bullying Larian for leting Aradin use bad line ... someone else stood for Larian and told him to stop ... and i shoved my support for the person who was against bullying ... how is that bad thing? :P
See? Its all matter of perspective.

But if you wish clear answer for your twisted example ...
Then no ... supporting bullying is no better than bullying itself ... aswell as not acting against it while we withness it, not helping bullyed person after that act, or god helps encouraging bullyed person to not report that to people who have actualy power to stop that. wink

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
So yeah, cute effort with the lame "I wasn't me"
What exactly is lame on claiming that you didnt do something you didnt do? smile
Seems perfectly reasonable to me. O_o

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
I'm not going to cut this into bits, because that's just aggravating to look at.
I am ... bcs funny enough, i have the same feeling for huge wall of text that is refering to something that is half monitor far from it. laugh
I mean this text in particular isnt "so huge" ... but anyway. smile

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Apparently no order is given to the archer or the archer willfully disobeys a direct order.
That would be true ... asuming Aradin is one ultimate leader of them all ...
When we later talked to that Archer woman she litteraly said that someone died and then say "as if i didnt teach him better" ...

SO what if ... and yes we are in purely speculative teritory here laugh ... Aradin and that Archer lady wich name i dont even remember are actualy equal in chain of comand? :P Aradin give order to his last subordinate, and ignored her bcs he knew she would be ignoring him aswell. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Ordering to "Form up" means they fight in formation but use their own judgment to find their place in the formation.
So basicaly stand wherever you wish ... i dont see much reason for such order. O_o

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Ordering to "form lines", notice the plural, means forming up according to type. It's been done since the Romans so yes, warriors with any kind of training, even mercs for rent, would certainly understand the concept intuitively and implicitly.
That is good argument and i like it!
Except it could be used without single change for "Form a line" aswell. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Execution, do the three mercs then following the tactics ordered by the commander? They do not. They're not holding a tight formation in the corner where the archer is shielded and the walls protect their flanks. They are not making the numerical advantage of the enemy count for as little as possible. They are not making themselves hard to flank and gang up on.
They are not suppose to hold tight formation ... the meele guys are suppose to "form a line" to hold meele goblins in their effort to get close to Archer ... and that is exactly happening. O_o
Where did you get tight formation?

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Lastly, two people cannot possibly manage to not form a line. They could be running in zig-zag and they'd still be forming a line.
Exactly ... laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Point being, it's just not a good order. And despite all the creative back-bending of you and others, there's still no way to interpret it as a good order.
That is the funny part, there is no argue here. laugh
Most of us agree that it was not good order ... we argue that it make sence that Aradin gave this order. wink

I believe i have seen some points even in your posts (not sure tho) things about hectic situation, poor leader qualities, etc. etc. laugh
Its all part of bigger picture. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
If your argument for him talking nonsense is that he's just talking in code then any discussion at any time becomes irrelevant because anything is just code. At that point you've essentially accepted any disconnect at any time between what is said by characters and what they do, because it's just code. It extremely obviously makes zero sense to even have that communication happen in the first place in a medium like a game if the communication isn't coherent or "in a code" that is never given to the player. This is so silly that it pretty much has to be bait.
That was a joke. smile
I try to mark them more clearly. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
By the by, modern militaries don't fight in formations like this.
True ... but for some reaason they still train them. laugh
(I mean line formation, tight formation, spread formation, etc.)

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 30/10/21 08:10 PM.

Vive et vivant. wink
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