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I really do like most of the game but there are a couple of deal breakers that are making me not want to continue playing this game.

Food. Rarely if ever does food come up in D&D. Usually only if it is a major plot point (i.e. stuck in the northern waste, lost running out of rations). This alone may stop me from ever finishing the game or even playing it when full release comes out. I get the complaints people had about resting, I just don't agree with them. If you want to play it so you can only take 1 long rest per so many hours go ahead no one is stopping you, but to restrict it for others, make it longer to play because you have to look around for food, ugh boring. If I have to find things I want quests, adventure not hunting for food so I can rest so I can then attempt the next fight. Maybe you could try making this an optional rule so those of us who don't want hours of food collecting can enjoy it too?

Money. Playing D&D I have never had to fill packs with trash to sell. Money is so tight in the game that we have to fill our packs with plates, cups, jugs, garbage and run back to sell it then run back to where we are adventuring. This takes me out of the immersion really quickly. It takes time, it's boring and repetitive. Nothing is better than finding good loot, but no one wants to keep filling the bags to sell junk. That is very video game and less D&D.

As a DM if I made my players have to loot every cup, plate, and tool loading up their packs so they could barely move because that is the only way to get money to buy food, armor and weapons. Then need that food to rest we would never get anywhere in our sessions. We only have 2 /1/2 hours a week. I would lose players. I want to play a video game but feel like I'm playing D&D around the table. I loved the day 1 version, Money and the ground effects were my only complaints (ground effects were a huge problem felt like DOS2 but no mechanics for players to survive), now it's money and the food/rest, and ground effects. (I still have a problem with how many stupid low level mobs carry around oil and other flammable liquids)

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Food - I'm always down for giving players more option, so I think adding this in for someone who doesn't want to deal a resting mechanic is a fair request.

However, I can't agree with the statement that food rarely comes up in D&D. Obviously, D&D is played table-by-table and DM has a different relationship to food and general adventuring rules. For some campaigns/settings, survival/nourishment can be an essential part of gameplay. In others, it's more of a role-play / afterthought mechanic. But by RAW, food definitely plays a role in D&D. From chapter 8 of the Player's Handbook:
Quote
Characters who don't eat or drink suffer the effects of exhaustion. Exhaustion caused by lack of food or water can't be removed until the character eats and drinks the full required amount.

Food
A character needs one pound of food per day and can make food last longer by subsisting on half rations. Eating half a pound of food in a day counts as half a day without food.

A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a character automatically suffers one level of exhaustion. A normal day of eating resets the count of days without food to zero.

Water
A character needs one gallon of water per day, or two gallons per day if the weather is hot. A character who drinks only half that much water must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion at the end of the day. A character with access to even less water automatically suffers one level of exhaustion at the end of the day.

If the character already has one or more levels of exhaustion, the character takes two levels in either case.
These rules are obviously enforced differently by different DMs/Settings. But there's a reason why Goodberries have a non-healing use, and Create Food and Water is a 3rd level spell.


Money - BG3 is meant to be a videogame first and foremost, so I don't think "videogamey behavior" is explicitly an issue. However, I do agree with you that the current looting system creates a bit of busy work (and can potentially unbalance the economy). I wouldn't mind if they simply changed "junk" to be valueless so that the economy is overall easier to balance. On top of this, an "auto-loot" system like Solasta (where areas you've cleared is looted for you afterwards), wouldn't hurt too.


At the end of the day, I don't think Larian's vision is to recreate the table-top experience, despite drawing a lot of inspirations from it. I don't think you wanting that is wrong in any way - I just think you'll be disappointed by BG3 if that's what you're strictly looking for. Saying as someone who thinks BG3 has a ton of potential, I think Solasta will probably satisfy your wants much more when it comes to a faithful adaptation.

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Originally Posted by Blueknight113
Money. Playing D&D I have never had to fill packs with trash to sell. Money is so tight in the game that we have to fill our packs with plates, cups, jugs, garbage and run back to sell it then run back to where we are adventuring. This takes me out of the immersion really quickly. It takes time, it's boring and repetitive. Nothing is better than finding good loot, but no one wants to keep filling the bags to sell junk. That is very video game and less D&D.
Idk if things have changed in recent patch, but I'll just leave this here
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=758912&page=1 - This is an old thread, sure, but I haven't seen/read about significant updates to the loot in BG3 EA since then. I got ~20,000gp in my most recent playthrough (gp + selling valuable items I didn't need) without picking up much junk.

If you want to buy literally every magic item merchants have to offer, sure you'll probably need to collect and sell all the cups+etc. But there's more than enough gp laying around in gold coins and valuable items to "properly" outfit a level 4 party with a magic item or two each. 5e isn't Pathfinder, where the game is ~balanced around everyone having a full assortment of +1 magic items at early levels and +5 to +6 magic items at late game.

I agree that there is too much trash loot in the game and Larian should remove a lot of it. But that's more an annoyance problem - opening up a chest to find a fork and a plate is just not fun - than a money problem imo.

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Hours of food collecting really ?
There are enough food to long rest after every combats... Every characters start with a supply bag and you can buy them.
On top of that you can find TONS of food even if you don't look for food at all. My issue with resting is the exact opposite : there are too many food and it's not harder enough to find some.

I agree that there aren't enough money in the game. In the end it does not look badly balanced, but it's ridiculous to open a chest to find 23 gold... what a reward !
I'd rather find 210 gold even if an armor is a bit more expensive.

You don't have to loot all junk items to make money... but I agree that there are way too many junk items in the game.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/10/21 09:49 PM.
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I don't understand the food and money problem. Food is everywhere; I always end up with way more than I need, and I never feel like I'm lacking for money. Not to mention, there's not a lot for sale that can't also be found somewhere.

Just to mention: I hear a lot about how there are so many containers and so many plates and cups and whatnot... none of that bothers me. I like it. It gives the rooms a sense of fullness that they wouldn't have otherwise. I like candles and cutting boards and random things lying about. In some games I'll pick the stuff up to sell it, in others I won't.

But what I don't want is a room with nothing but valuable treasure to pick up. How boring. That kind of thing makes me feel like painting by number. Where every character by this point has exactly blah number of gold pieces, as opposed to an open feeling world where there are tons of things all around that you can take the time to pick up or not, meaning every player who goes through is going to have a different inventory.

To each their own, of course, but I just want to be a voice saying that I like all the clutter and all the small items, and I would hate it if Larian got rid of that stuff.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I don't understand the food and money problem. Food is everywhere; I always end up with way more than I need, and I never feel like I'm lacking for money. Not to mention, there's not a lot for sale that can't also be found somewhere.

Just to mention: I hear a lot about how there are so many containers and so many plates and cups and whatnot... none of that bothers me. I like it. It gives the rooms a sense of fullness that they wouldn't have otherwise. I like candles and cutting boards and random things lying about. In some games I'll pick the stuff up to sell it, in others I won't.

But what I don't want is a room with nothing but valuable treasure to pick up. How boring. That kind of thing makes me feel like painting by number. Where every character by this point has exactly blah number of gold pieces, as opposed to an open feeling world where there are tons of things all around that you can take the time to pick up or not, meaning every player who goes through is going to have a different inventory.

To each their own, of course, but I just want to be a voice saying that I like all the clutter and all the small items, and I would hate it if Larian got rid of that stuff.

+1 to all of this. Too much food is out there, and it doesn't take that long to clear the containers in a room. Though an auto-loot, or radius-loot feature would be handy.

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I really hope that amount of food required for Long Rest will be adjustable in difficiulty settings, with option to set it to 0 if people want to ...
I get you, its not question of how long, or how often you actualy need to "search for food" ... its more that the fact you need is anoying. laugh

About trash items ...
Do you know that you can quite easly let them lay just where they are and final difference between your funds if you would pick them would be aproximately 15g per dungeon run? Meaning completely irellevant?
I mean this is problem that resolve itself, as long as you start to act the way you want to. O_o

Since you are using DM example ... imagine it from other way around:
DM: You entered a room.
Player: What do we see?
DM: Nothing significant, imagine it anyway you wish.
Pretty lame, if you ask me. laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I don't think I've ever enjoyed food as a mechanic in ANY RPG. I don't really understand Larian's choice to include food of all things in BG3 when they're streamlining everything else. And there's so much of it it's a non-mechanic currently. It's just extra item management and a few extra clicks before resting. No previous D&D CRPG has had food as a resource so Larian's choice is really baffling.

For resting, I would boldly introduce a slightly more punishing system for Core Rules difficulty.

1. Ditch the pocket dimension safety camps completely. They are just weird and unimmersive. Ditch food.

2. Place campsites and other rest zones on the actual areas you explore.

3. Yes, that would mean backtracking to the previous rest spot for a long rest. Or pushing on for the next one. Meaningful player choice there, because...

4. Introduce random encounters to already explored areas spice things up. Goblins, wolves, bandits etc. in the wilderness. Drow patrols, hook horrors and many others in the Underdark. So going back to the previous rest spot isn't just tedium, it's a mechanic. Spend all your resources in a fight and risk encountering something on your way to camp. Yes, this would make the game harder and force the player to think more. Normal difficulty could still have teleport to last camp and back without encounters. Not all random encounters need to be combat. There could be traveling merchants to trade with or rob, or Clerics you could roll Deception against to heal your evil party for free. Roll Intimidation or Animal Handling to avoid combat sometimes.

Big part of why the world of BG3 feels dead and pre-scripted is because already explored areas are exactly that, dead. The free teleporting to your pocket dimension camp from wherever creates a dull feeling of safety and being in full control of your enemies when it could be a feeling of thrill, danger and adventure. Random encounters would change all that and bring the world to life.

5. Chance to be ambushed during resting when in a hostile area. One party member on watch duty. Perception checks, minor illusions to lead hostiles away, 1v monsters... stuff.


As for the trash loot everywhere, I absolutely hate it. It should be removed, or at least flagged somehow so you don't have to interact with it.

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My last tabletop game we basically had a setup with the DM that we auto bought a weeks worth of rations every time we went to camp and were auto deducted X gold for doing it.

We also had characters that could summon food.

Food is a non issue in D&D games. It's kind of a non issue here, too.

But money I'm a bit up in the air on. If you're not buying the valuable stuff and gearing yourself to the teeth, you're stealing it, and I've had a lot of trouble with the boss encounters if I *don't* gear to the teeth. Not everyone is a perfect player that metagames or has perfect strategy for every encounter.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I don't think I've ever enjoyed food as a mechanic in ANY RPG. I don't really understand Larian's choice to include food of all things in BG3 when they're streamlining everything else. And there's so much of it it's a non-mechanic currently. It's just extra item management and a few extra clicks before resting. No previous D&D CRPG has had food as a resource so Larian's choice is really baffling.

For resting, I would boldly introduce a slightly more punishing system for Core Rules difficulty.

1. Ditch the pocket dimension safety camps completely. They are just weird and unimmersive. Ditch food.

2. Place campsites and other rest zones on the actual areas you explore.

3. Yes, that would mean backtracking to the previous rest spot for a long rest. Or pushing on for the next one. Meaningful player choice there, because...

4. Introduce random encounters to already explored areas spice things up. Goblins, wolves, bandits etc. in the wilderness. Drow patrols, hook horrors and many others in the Underdark. So going back to the previous rest spot isn't just tedium, it's a mechanic. Spend all your resources in a fight and risk encountering something on your way to camp. Yes, this would make the game harder and force the player to think more. Normal difficulty could still have teleport to last camp and back without encounters. Not all random encounters need to be combat. There could be traveling merchants to trade with or rob, or Clerics you could roll Deception against to heal your evil party for free. Roll Intimidation or Animal Handling to avoid combat sometimes.

Big part of why the world of BG3 feels dead and pre-scripted is because already explored areas are exactly that, dead. The free teleporting to your pocket dimension camp from wherever creates a dull feeling of safety and being in full control of your enemies when it could be a feeling of thrill, danger and adventure. Random encounters would change all that and bring the world to life.

5. Chance to be ambushed during resting when in a hostile area. One party member on watch duty. Perception checks, minor illusions to lead hostiles away, 1v monsters... stuff.


As for the trash loot everywhere, I absolutely hate it. It should be removed, or at least flagged somehow so you don't have to interact with it.
disagree about these ideas. for random encounters, why add sandbox elements when it's really unnecessary to this game. Your encounters are all story/quest-related. and you even mentioned you hate trash looting. isn't random encounters are another type of time-wasting " trash looting "?
also, the current campsite is fine. the camp environment change with your current locations. I can't think any locations on the map could shove all characters and also make sure all the cut scenes could play well. Besides, you got more NPC to come to your camp through the story. They don't actually travel with you.

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If everything is auto in a video game, then what's the point of playing? Food and other items make treasure that you find special. As mentioned, if you only ever find special loot and there isn't much of a search system, it would get pretty boring.

I'm also a DM, and I've said pretty much the same thing. But it did hit me. Without the mundane in a video game, the special isn't as special.

Imagine you start the game on the nautiloid. The game has your character immediately roll the dice like in tabletop. You make a Perception check. Narrator voice says, "You find 30 gold and two potions of speed on a dead mind flayer and some thralls."

Well. No need to search the room now. No need to map it out and see all the cool graphics they spent a million hours working on. Just run out the door and go. Sure, it speeds up the game, but in the end you'd miss out on so much.

That said, I think it all goes back to a bad item management system. If they fixed that, the useless junk wouldn't be an issue.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I don't think I've ever enjoyed food as a mechanic in ANY RPG. I don't really understand Larian's choice to include food of all things in BG3 when they're streamlining everything else. And there's so much of it it's a non-mechanic currently. It's just extra item management and a few extra clicks before resting. No previous D&D CRPG has had food as a resource so Larian's choice is really baffling.

For resting, I would boldly introduce a slightly more punishing system for Core Rules difficulty.

1. Ditch the pocket dimension safety camps completely. They are just weird and unimmersive. Ditch food.

2. Place campsites and other rest zones on the actual areas you explore.

3. Yes, that would mean backtracking to the previous rest spot for a long rest. Or pushing on for the next one. Meaningful player choice there, because...

4. Introduce random encounters to already explored areas spice things up. Goblins, wolves, bandits etc. in the wilderness. Drow patrols, hook horrors and many others in the Underdark. So going back to the previous rest spot isn't just tedium, it's a mechanic. Spend all your resources in a fight and risk encountering something on your way to camp. Yes, this would make the game harder and force the player to think more. Normal difficulty could still have teleport to last camp and back without encounters. Not all random encounters need to be combat. There could be traveling merchants to trade with or rob, or Clerics you could roll Deception against to heal your evil party for free. Roll Intimidation or Animal Handling to avoid combat sometimes.

Big part of why the world of BG3 feels dead and pre-scripted is because already explored areas are exactly that, dead. The free teleporting to your pocket dimension camp from wherever creates a dull feeling of safety and being in full control of your enemies when it could be a feeling of thrill, danger and adventure. Random encounters would change all that and bring the world to life.

5. Chance to be ambushed during resting when in a hostile area. One party member on watch duty. Perception checks, minor illusions to lead hostiles away, 1v monsters... stuff.


As for the trash loot everywhere, I absolutely hate it. It should be removed, or at least flagged somehow so you don't have to interact with it.

Solasta says hi. Fire it up, leave all your rations in your chest in town, and remove the Good Berry spell from your caster that may have it, and try to rest. It's more than a bit ironic that it was touted as the best thing since sliced bread, on these very forums, but is now conveniently ignored because it's inconvenient?

I hope a core rules setting does introduce some more restrictions, we actually agree on this. In regard to trash loot, however, you can already ignore it. I leave it in chests already, so evidently there's a mechanic for it already in game. I am certainly not picking up everything in a room, unless it's something interesting, or a lore book. Plates and the like? I leave 'em where they are, and money isn't much of an issue. I have yet seen anything that I would consider junk that I'm forced to pick up.

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Originally Posted by ALexws
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I don't think I've ever enjoyed food as a mechanic in ANY RPG. I don't really understand Larian's choice to include food of all things in BG3 when they're streamlining everything else. And there's so much of it it's a non-mechanic currently. It's just extra item management and a few extra clicks before resting. No previous D&D CRPG has had food as a resource so Larian's choice is really baffling.

For resting, I would boldly introduce a slightly more punishing system for Core Rules difficulty.

1. Ditch the pocket dimension safety camps completely. They are just weird and unimmersive. Ditch food.

2. Place campsites and other rest zones on the actual areas you explore.

3. Yes, that would mean backtracking to the previous rest spot for a long rest. Or pushing on for the next one. Meaningful player choice there, because...

4. Introduce random encounters to already explored areas spice things up. Goblins, wolves, bandits etc. in the wilderness. Drow patrols, hook horrors and many others in the Underdark. So going back to the previous rest spot isn't just tedium, it's a mechanic. Spend all your resources in a fight and risk encountering something on your way to camp. Yes, this would make the game harder and force the player to think more. Normal difficulty could still have teleport to last camp and back without encounters. Not all random encounters need to be combat. There could be traveling merchants to trade with or rob, or Clerics you could roll Deception against to heal your evil party for free. Roll Intimidation or Animal Handling to avoid combat sometimes.

Big part of why the world of BG3 feels dead and pre-scripted is because already explored areas are exactly that, dead. The free teleporting to your pocket dimension camp from wherever creates a dull feeling of safety and being in full control of your enemies when it could be a feeling of thrill, danger and adventure. Random encounters would change all that and bring the world to life.

5. Chance to be ambushed during resting when in a hostile area. One party member on watch duty. Perception checks, minor illusions to lead hostiles away, 1v monsters... stuff.


As for the trash loot everywhere, I absolutely hate it. It should be removed, or at least flagged somehow so you don't have to interact with it.
disagree about these ideas. for random encounters, why add sandbox elements when it's really unnecessary to this game. Your encounters are all story/quest-related. and you even mentioned you hate trash looting. isn't random encounters are another type of time-wasting " trash looting "?
also, the current campsite is fine. the camp environment change with your current locations. I can't think any locations on the map could shove all characters and also make sure all the cut scenes could play well. Besides, you got more NPC to come to your camp through the story. They don't actually travel with you.
We are talking about the resting system and the attrition based game design D&D is based on. Which currently is not working in BG3 because you can rest whenever you want without any real cost attached to it in complete safety. Any spell slot or ability that says "per long rest" actually means "per encounter". The game is in a broken state and it will get worse and worse as the characters level up beyond 4. That's why.

Last edited by 1varangian; 24/10/21 12:13 PM.
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Personally I think the whole issue is the really poor method we have for searching for stuff.

In tabletop, usually I ask, can I search the room and either the DM narrates what we find or ask for some roll like investigation to determine how well it was searched and what we find. Never have I had to search a box, search another box, search that dresser, etc.

Same thing with bodies, I ask after a combat to search the bodies and that happens to a group of them, I don't have to roleplay going through each individual body.

My suggestion would be drop all containers that have nothing and add a passive investigation check like they been doing for perception checks. If you detect something, that container has a soft yellow glow about it.

This would let you search rooms quickly.

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Probably when they release the game there will be difficulty levels, thus for players that don't like a challenge and/or grinding and just want to click and win - there will be an easy mode or story mode even.

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Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
Personally I think the whole issue is the really poor method we have for searching for stuff.

In tabletop, usually I ask, can I search the room and either the DM narrates what we find or ask for some roll like investigation to determine how well it was searched and what we find. Never have I had to search a box, search another box, search that dresser, etc.

Same thing with bodies, I ask after a combat to search the bodies and that happens to a group of them, I don't have to roleplay going through each individual body.

My suggestion would be drop all containers that have nothing and add a passive investigation check like they been doing for perception checks. If you detect something, that container has a soft yellow glow about it.

This would let you search rooms quickly.

Solasta has very limited loot areas, boxes or baskets here and there. I think it went to the other extreme. If the box is in baskets are highlighted and in easily accessible areas, why even bother having them? There's no real game or challenge elements to it. There are however, some boxes and crates in that game that requires some puzzle solving to get to. That makes getting to those boxes increase more meaningful and fun. You have to first solve the puzzle and then you can get the cool item.

I do think that the best way is really an in-between. I think it would be really good to implement more Perception checks for characters to find and auto-pickup items of value based on your Perception check. Roll a 10, auto-pickup items of low value only, if present. Roll a 15, pickup better items and low value if present. Roll a 20, pickup awesome gear if present. Player only has to come within 15 feet of said items.

Then, if you want to go searching manually, you can. Your choice, but give players who hate the treasure hunt the ability to just make Perception checks to find the best stuff. (Low value means useful items that aren't super special, so no forks knives spoons but maybe weaker spell scrolls, potions, etc.)

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That just means I would still have to go through every single container afterwards to make sure I didn't miss out on anything.


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Hmmm, I dont think a perception check to give you a INDICATION of the whereabouts of valuable loot would be bad no. But I wouldn't make crates inaccessible per se. ANd I would make these things optional. I personally don't check every crate lol. Especially if 3 in a cluster have already been empty. But auto pick-up loot? ehmmm... is clicking to pick up an item really that tiring? xD.

I get people would only want to spend as little time looting as possible these days. Same thing with endless backtracking. Hence why nigh on any rpg with a semi open-ish world has fast-travel these days. Not sure where the sweet spot would be in this really. Clutter is needed to make a world feel lived in to some degree. Being able to pick up a good portion of it, makes it feel a little less static, at least to me. I've been long since cured of taking everything nailed down with me xD. Fallout and Skyrim punished you well enough for that (ah the long slow walks beacuse you couldnt fast travel :D). I mean why would I take non magic loot with me? Maybe in the early stages it can make you some money, but asuming that at full release you also get some money for questing, I hope this is not that much of a necessity.

I assume things will be streamlined clutter and lootwise, I personally do not really wish to turn this into a: press F to loot entire dungeon game.

But maybe some narrative driven at a glance looting like Merry Mayhem described could be a alternative. I quite liked the narration based secrets you could find in Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 well enough. Maybe this would also be a option for some hidden shortcuts into areas, utilising more of the athletics skills and such. or finding a use for items such as... rope? laugh.

I dont really remember how much the loot availability changed during EA of DoS 2 and full release, but I am sure they will figure out a middle ground to satisfy both the kleptomaniacs as the more casual looters among us.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
That just means I would still have to go through every single container afterwards to make sure I didn't miss out on anything.

The point is that auto search, or quick search, or whatever you want to call it, would be for those who are content to not necessarily have to search every container. I suppose a secret roll is not necessarily good, because then you wouldn't know whether you rolled high enough to find everything. So, I guess when I say a secret roll, I don't mean totally Secret. I just mean that I don't want the quick search pulling up the dice rolling window and so on and so forth, and I don't want the little dice roll icons popping up every 2 seconds. I came up with a slight tweak idea on a different thread where the player would hit a quick search button instead. So instead of Auto search, it would be a quick search button. The player could hit the quick search button and search everything within 30 ft of the characters. Then it would pull up a loop window showing all the loot you found within 30 ft of your characters, and the results of your dice roll at the top of the loot window, showing how well you rolled per character.

So let's say you're searching the basement of the toll house with all those crates jars and so forth. You could spread your entire party out so that each party member searches every crate and barrel and jar and vase within 30 ft of them. You hit the quick search button, all four characters make a roll, a loot window pops up with all the loot you found, and it tells you that the MC rolled a 15, Astarion rolls an 11, Lae'zel rolled a 9, and Shadowheart rolled a 21. Now you know exactly how well each of the characters searched. So you know you don't have to search anything that Shadowheart searched because she rolled so well. You might want to search everything that Lae'zel searched because she didn't roll well at all.

Each character would get one dice roll for quick search per container.

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No, you don't understand. I don't have to search all containers because I like it. I have search every container because all containers have to be searched. That's why I want less numbers if empty, pointless containers, or containers that just contain a single worthless plate or cup. If you have an entire stack of crates and none of them contain anything of worth, they should just make them a single container or two and have those ones be empty or contain a single hammer or carrot or whatever.

Clicking on containers appeals to the gambler in us, the joys of discovery (even if it's not hitting the jackpot) vs the chance of not finding anything. As currently is, the amount of blanks is so overwhelming that it makes searching for things not fun and unrewarding. It's exhaustive how pointless it is to go through them. It's a chore.


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