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Didn't read all your comments but considering the abysmal difference in difficulty between this encounter and other ones I think this is just Larian testing their own playerbase to see what % wants to suffer. How many people will keep fighting, how many will just reload and skip, how many will cheese their way to victory etc. Cool stats to have to begin with and gives you an idea about game balance and difficulty levels going forward I guess.

Personally I loved that encounter. Not because I've seen my party die twice in a row but precisely because I see this as a sign of Larian slowly testing the ground to appeal to players wanting higher difficulty for combat.
Like if you think this encounter should be nerfed etc : Don't worry, it probably will.
If you loved it and want the entire game to look like this : Hopefully it will be possible.


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designing a game where its up to the player how much of the unbalanced content yuo want to use/misuse is bad/sloppy design, Larian oiously want the player to have as many options as possible for how to engage an encounter, but alot of choices should not equal trivaial content, as mentioned before its all about balance and right now balance is not on par with how much promise/potential the game has, i am sure that we will get some difficulty setting along the way, but if everythign is not scaled/balanced correctly a overall difficulty setting will only exagerate the problem.

Last edited by Ormgaard; 28/10/21 11:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by TheHero
The hardest part in this Battle with the Giths is within your disciplined or not disciplined Brains.
Do you want to cheese or not is the question here.
I find it hard not to cheese a bit at least. By using opportunities to shove when possible and crouch when possible. Also Area effects like Grease are great.
everyone of you know what i mean, we where all down this road several times.
Of course you cheese. The PC's are intelligent adventurers who would milk every resource and tactic to their fullest potential to win. If you are at all roleplaying them, they will cheese to the max. That's why in an RPG gameplay and narrative can't be disconnected.

Also, if I as a player have to consciously play worse, all victories are hollow. Self-control doesn't lead to anything positive in this context no matter how many times someone from the "if you don't like it, don't use it" -camp posts their mantra.

Larian are also throwing impossible enemies at you because they want you to cheese, or exploit some gimmick. But all that does is make normal encounters meaningless.

Cheese doesn't belong in RPG's. Unless it's clever and well matured. Larian cheese isn't.

I disagree here. How is it different from kitting strong mob one character while the others shoot him from a distance.


Kiting a Warrior Character is absolutly viable, because Warriors/Fighter Class normally have not enough intelligence to realize that they are beeing kitet and at the same time shot by someone elso.
So Kiting isnt really a cheese if you can get it done and can hold the Aggro somehow.
If you can kite a Wizard or other INT base Class, then i really wonder what the AI is doing when they dont realize they have range spells at hand.

Last edited by TheHero; 28/10/21 11:29 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by TheHero
The hardest part in this Battle with the Giths is within your disciplined or not disciplined Brains.
Do you want to cheese or not is the question here.
I find it hard not to cheese a bit at least. By using opportunities to shove when possible and crouch when possible. Also Area effects like Grease are great.
everyone of you know what i mean, we where all down this road several times.
Of course you cheese. The PC's are intelligent adventurers who would milk every resource and tactic to their fullest potential to win. If you are at all roleplaying them, they will cheese to the max. That's why in an RPG gameplay and narrative can't be disconnected.

Also, if I as a player have to consciously play worse, all victories are hollow. Self-control doesn't lead to anything positive in this context no matter how many times someone from the "if you don't like it, don't use it" -camp posts their mantra.

Larian are also throwing impossible enemies at you because they want you to cheese, or exploit some gimmick. But all that does is make normal encounters meaningless.

Cheese doesn't belong in RPG's. Unless it's clever and well matured. Larian cheese isn't.

I disagree here. How is it different from kitting strong mob one character while the others shoot him from a distance.
It's not different at all. Kiting is exploiting poor AI and the game's limitations. Your point eludes me.

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I think the point is that kiting was a very common way of cheesing BG1 enemies (BG2 too, though not to the same extent, since ranged was much less powerful in the sequel and characters didn't walk at the same abysmal pace).


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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by robertthebard
But since we're talking about it, what is the shove action for, if not to shove someone/something? What are the spells in one's spell book for, if not to use them? "but barrelmancy"... Yeah, I've never used it. I have blown up some barrels that were already in place by a mob or two, but I've never placed any, or carried a ton, literally, of them around. This isn't something that Larian invented. I never used food to heal either, not even in Skyrim. I was all the way through my first run before I learned about dipping, from the forums, and I've missed a lot of content because it never occurred to me to abuse the resting system. What is the point of destruct-able environments, if one isn't going to destruct them? Note that if we're going to complain about that here, we have to complain about it everywhere they're available, it's not like Larian invented them either.
Larian did invent barrelmancy - teleporting and exploding barrels was very much D:OS1&2 gameplay.

snip

Sorry, you lost me here. Baldur's Gate had exploding arrows, you can loot one from the first encounter outside of Candlekeep. Exploding barrels, the infamous "red barrels" have existed in games for years, predating even Larian studios. So no.

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Originally Posted by TheHero
Kiting a Warrior Character is absolutly viable, because Warriors/Fighter Class normally have not enough intelligence to realize that they are beeing kitet and at the same time shot by someone elso.
So Kiting isnt really a cheese if you can get it done and can hold the Aggro somehow.
If you can kite a Wizard or other INT base Class, then i really wonder what the AI is doing when they dont realize they have range spells at hand.
While this seems a little like offtopic ... i simply cannot left this without a comentary.

I just cant understand where this idea of person with small Intelligence stat being on the edge of pure demention is taken from. O_o
Intelligence is only numeric value showing you the amount of information your character is capable to remember, how precise is he able to recall those information, and ability to quickly understand new, or previously unknown concepts. :-/
It dont mean that character who have Intelligence 8 is so stupid so it dont understands that chasing that dude who keeps runing away from him, is bad idea ... especialy since he allready have 4 arrows from the other dude shoot in back. -_-
Hells, not even animals are so stupid so they dont understands concepts of pain and danger. :-/


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Instead of shove hurling people 50+ feet it just needs to be nerfed to like 5 ft. It’s also possible to beat every encounter in early access without “cheesing” them - game just needs difficulty slider for people who can’t figure out how.

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Originally Posted by Aaezil
Instead of shove hurling people 50+ feet it just needs to be nerfed to like 5 ft. It’s also possible to beat every encounter in early access without “cheesing” them - game just needs difficulty slider for people who can’t figure out how.

Which seems, based on feedback, to be quite a few of them. The problem I have with this limit suggestion is that, if you push a target that is one foot away from a cliff edge, a situation where I'd be likely to use it, the arc of the fall is going to carry them much further than that. That's the way physics works. The lack of ground under the target doesn't mean they do a Wile E Coyote type fall. They are going to continue in the direction they were shoved, and down, hence the arc, and that's going to be determined by how far down they have to go. Forward momentum isn't going to just stop, until it hits something that doesn't move.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Sorry, you lost me here. Baldur's Gate had exploding arrows, you can loot one from the first encounter outside of Candlekeep. Exploding barrels, the infamous "red barrels" have existed in games for years, predating even Larian studios. So no.
Crap you are right. I remember nothing about them being near BG1 start, but I don't return to that game very often. Those were shitty. I suppose that is fine then. At least Larian is adapting the janky part of BGs, that I prefer to forget. Maybe they will get to do Halflife3 next, and all they learn from the series, is slidey controls.

I didn't say that Larian invented barrels. Many games have barrels. They didn't invent push either.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The problem is not in the system, its in our heads ... after all, you admited that youreself:
No, if players gravitate toward repetitive way of playing and ignore core systems, then it is a system problem.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Wormerine
If they find a simple exploit that works every time, they will just keep using it.
See?
Guns dont kill people, people kill people. wink
[/quote]
I am not gonna go into gun control topic, but didn't you just make fun of yourself?

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The problem is not in the system, its in our heads ... after all, you admited that youreself:
No, if players gravitate toward repetitive way of playing and ignore core systems, then it is a system problem.
I am unable to understand this mindset ... we allready cleared out that in Barrels topic ...

I play the way i want to play no matter how "unoptimal" my way is, and im having fun no matter what other (and potentialy better) options game provides me.
You should try that sometimes. laugh

If someone play they way he hates to play ... i dunno, sounds like sign of masochism to me. :-/
Maybe they should talk to someone. :-/

Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Wormerine
If they find a simple exploit that works every time, they will just keep using it.
See?
Guns dont kill people, people kill people. wink
I am not gonna go into gun control topic, but didn't you just make fun of yourself?
Cant you see the paralel? laugh
Its about blaming object for persons own actions. o_O

True, in our case the "object" is piece of code, but that isnt important here.

I mean come on ...
Have you ever used cheats in game? And if not, why not? Its most effective way after all ...
There is many silngle player game that allows you to use cheats and become invulnerable, give you unlimited ammo, or single strike/shoot kill ... do you use them?
And if you do ... and you find game boring and lacking any challenge ... is that fault of cheat existence, or your own if you use them?
How is this any different?
Yes ... in one way its called "cheat" and in other its called "cheeze" ... doesnt even sound so different to me. laugh
But the story behind those is the same, its piece of code that developers left there for you to abuse and have fun ... IF you want to ...

I obviously understand its easier to blame others, than to take responsibility for your own actions ...
But its time. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 28/10/21 07:48 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I mean come on ...
Have you ever used cheats in game? And if not, why not? Its most effective way after all ...
So, you don't care that the game is broken. Got it. Fine, good for you. I like my games, however, to be well put together. I did use cheats years ago for those old arcade games PC adaptations. I found limited coins mechanics to not be fairly balanced and fun - and interestingly enough - they were!


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If someone play they way he hates to play ... i dunno, sounds like sign of masochism to me. :-/
Maybe they should talk to someone. :-/
I don't play games that I don't find enjoyable. Why would I? If the book sucks, I suppose I can write my own, but it doesn't make the book any better. If BG3 won't provide well designed, balanced and tested systems - then I don't have any need for it, do I?

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
So, you don't care that the game is broken. Got it.
Well ... more like i dont care that you concider it broken. :P
Since i dont ... and as far as i can tell, neither do Larian, thankfully. laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Well ... more like i dont care that you concider it broken. :P
Since i dont ... and as far as i can tell, neither do Larian, thankfully. laugh
You did just compare cheese to cheats - which by definition break the game, and that’s why they are not part of the core ruleset.

So, at least, it seems we agree on what impact those features have on the game.

Last edited by Wormerine; 29/10/21 01:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
You did just compare cheese to cheats - which by definition break the game, and that’s why they are not part of the core ruleset.
Cheats dont "break" the game ...
Cheats allow players to ignore some mechanisms they dont wish to deal with ... and therefore have fun. :P
Bugs "break" the game. wink

Well part of core ruleset is this sentence:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So basicaly ... everything is fine as long as people included IN THAT SPECIFIC SESSION are fine with that. :P
In even simplier words: You keep your nose out of my game, i keep my nose out of yours, and everyone will be happy. ^_^

Originally Posted by Wormerine
So, at least, it seems we agree on what impact those features have on the game.
I'm afraid we don't agree ... because I don't get the impression that the fact that someone completely unknown to me in the world is using cheats to play a game would affect my playing the same game in any way.
On the other hand, you seem to have set out on a crusade to drive out all those heinous crooks, because ... I don't even know why ... just BECAUSE! I suppose. laugh

So ...
While in my eyes the impact is none, i cant shake the feeling that you would not agree with that. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 29/10/21 01:59 PM.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Sorry, you lost me here. Baldur's Gate had exploding arrows, you can loot one from the first encounter outside of Candlekeep. Exploding barrels, the infamous "red barrels" have existed in games for years, predating even Larian studios. So no.
Crap you are right. I remember nothing about them being near BG1 start, but I don't return to that game very often. Those were shitty. I suppose that is fine then. At least Larian is adapting the janky part of BGs, that I prefer to forget. Maybe they will get to do Halflife3 next, and all they learn from the series, is slidey controls.

I didn't say that Larian invented barrels. Many games have barrels. They didn't invent push either.

Nope, but that's where the dialog always goes, that barrelmancy is a Larian thing. Maybe the name for it is?

The problem is, I've seen a video on YouTube where someone ended the battle for the Druid Grove in one round. Yes, barrelmancy was the key. However, my thought, after "well, that's pretty messed up" was "but hilarious to see". I wasn't, however, motivated to do it myself. It was hilarious though.

Which brings me to the general gist of the discussion after this: I don't care if a player is using mods, or cheats, or exploiting systems in their SP game. I've seen some games with pretty "tight" mechanics abused by The Spiffing Brit. To the point where I watch his videos to see what he's found in games that allows him to completely break them, no matter how well they seem to be put together, and he does seem to always find a way. If I'm going to base my enjoyment of a game on what others are doing, I'm not going to enjoy a lot of games. Now, this situation changes in a MP environment. I'm going to expect to play with people that are playing the way I want to play. In MMOs/MP games this means I'm not knowingly playing with people that use 3rd party software to cheat, or that feel that they have to use broken mechanics to play. If they're doing it in their SP environments, more power to them, their money spent on the game isn't worth less than my money, and they are free to do whatever they like. It's none of my business.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
I don't care if a player is using mods, or cheats, or exploiting systems in their SP game. I've seen some games with pretty "tight" mechanics abused by The Spiffing Brit. To the point where I watch his videos to see what he's found in games that allows him to completely break them, no matter how well they seem to be put together, and he does seem to always find a way. If I'm going to base my enjoyment of a game on what others are doing, I'm not going to enjoy a lot of games. Now, this situation changes in a MP environment. I'm going to expect to play with people that are playing the way I want to play. In MMOs/MP games this means I'm not knowingly playing with people that use 3rd party software to cheat, or that feel that they have to use broken mechanics to play. If they're doing it in their SP environments, more power to them, their money spent on the game isn't worth less than my money, and they are free to do whatever they like. It's none of my business.
+ <3


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Very passionate answers, but have we lined up an answer for the original question.
In case you don't get what they're talking about when they say "cheese it up," Lets give you a quick walkthrough. When you first enter the mountain pass area, be sure to be on the upper side of the hill. After the Dragon flies over head, walk to the top side of the bridge where the teifling is looking on, engage with her or not, your call, wasted encounter. Drop off one of your ranged characters, I use Wyll with the bonus damage to EB and knock back. Start moving your party across the gate and the cut screen will activate, followed by Lae'zel's reaction, (trying not to give too much away, they did ask for no spoilers). Once on the other side by the ladder, drop another ranged character, I use Shadowheart or Gale here. Then walk down the side, slowly if your PC is some sort of ranged character, because you don't have to be all the way next to the dragon rider to start the encounter. There is another interactive cutscene, about 60-65% of the time that ends up a fight, or 100% of the time if you are not trying for Lae'zel's favor. Once it begins, who ever is the first PC to activate, move the horn to their inventory, put it into the hotbar, and call for reinforcments. The Orges will pull most of the agro and when the fight is over, they will get a little pissy with you about not having enough to eat. There is one enemy in particular you have to lock down fairly immedately or they will take out 2 characters inside as many turns. That's it, Gith patrol made easy. (Hopefully I didn't give too much away......)

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Well part of core ruleset is this sentence:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So basicaly ... everything is fine as long as people included IN THAT SPECIFIC SESSION are fine with that. :P
In even simplier words: You keep your nose out of my game, i keep my nose out of yours, and everyone will be happy. ^_^
I couldn't care less what you do. Unfortunately, as a only person in my specific session I am not having fun with current design, and that's my problem - so I am complaining to DM. Maybe Larian will fix things, maybe they won't. Maybe a kind soul with more tech knowledge will mod it to a more bearable level.

Anyway, no real point of arguing. I care not if I convince you. If Larian listens, they listen. If they agree, they agree. If they don't, they don't.

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