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#798812 05/11/21 07:37 AM
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First, I want to preface this by saying that I am *so thankful* that we have new armor. The old look was getting unbearable to me.

*

But in regards to efficacy...

I'm not sure what I think about this yet. I'm definitely curious what most of you think about this.

Is the reeling condition very useful?

I'm wondering, if I have a set of +1 Scale and I trade it in for a set of Adamantine Scale... I'm not sure I'm gaining anything; in fact, I'm worried I might actually be losing out. The +1 Scale increases my AC by 1. The Adamantine armor will lower my attackers to hit chance by 1 (effectively the same as raising my AC by one), but only in regards to that attacker and only after I've already been successfully hit.

Am I not better off in my normal +1 Scale?

Unless... the reeling condition stacks. I haven't noticed; does anyone know?

If you get hit while wearing Adamantine Scale and the Adamantine helm... does that equate to a -2 to hit? If so, then I can start to see the value.

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Reeling also apply when other characters are attacked while your +1 AC is only for the armor wearer.

I don't find these armors really interresting because I'll personnaly always choose an armor that increase the AC (if available).
But it's not too weak or too OP, so I guess it's +- ok...

Thats said, according to me it does not make much sense for such an armor not to be at least "a bit" better. In exemple I'd find them much more interresting if they were +1 armor that gives the reeling condition for one turn.
(such an armor = rare, crafted, maximum 2 adamantine items, a boss to fight, a hard location to find,...)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 05/11/21 09:09 AM.
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This is another example of what I was saying in a different post. They make such a big deal out of the adamantine armor and weapons that you expect them to be something more special. Then you get it and you wonder if it was worth everything you had to do to get it.

I went with the mace because I wanted to give Shadowheart something a bit more special. She was using the Watcher spear previously. After getting the mace and almost dying to do so, I thought, "It's not even + 1? Well, I guess it's okay."

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Yea, they're not really optimal. Just the advantage for heavy armor use as it's the only +17 AC armor I've seen in the game so far.

Had they been +1 it would have helped, same goes for weapons

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The Adamantine Splint Armor is currently the only way to increase Lae'zel's AC without giving up two-handed weapons.

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Originally Posted by agouzov
The Adamantine Splint Armor is currently the only way to increase Lae'zel's AC without giving up two-handed weapons.

Well, not really. I usually up her Str by one and her Dex by one at fourth level, which means she has the same AC from her starting armor.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Reeling also apply when other characters are attacked while your +1 AC is only for the armor wearer.

That's a good point.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
...I'd find them much more interresting [sic] if they were +1 armor...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
...I thought, "It's not even + 1? Well, I guess it's okay."

Originally Posted by EvilVik
Had they been +1 it would have helped, same goes for weapons

I agree with these above quotes. Adding a +1 to these armors and weapons would help. The forge is presented as such an amazing, life-changing thing. Right now, the reeling condition is interesting and nice, but it's not enough on its own to warrant the storytelling power being given to the forge.

It needs something more.

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It will be when we see rest of game.

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Many high ranking drow died, went crazy or were turned to stone for the secrets of the adamantine forge. Turns out my mate dave, a backwater druid that sells random crap knocks out better armor for the cost of a cantrip and the sneak button. A bit like the bark you need to get from the underdark to make a generic +1 weapon, the alternate method being just rob it from a generic vendor.

The quest can be amazing but if the reward is recieved by "wth is this?" Why bother? Drow make insane magic weapons by lore (min +2h+1d), the drow are not going to make an effort for anything less than a +3h+3d weapon that fires lightning bolts every swing or amror that is resistant to all damage types. Not suggesting the "best armor and weapons in EVER!" should be.....good or anything I mean that would be OP right?

In 5e non-enchanted adamantine armor makes you immune to critical hits, while adamantine weapons, bolts or arrows always do critical hits. Also Adamantine weapons can damage ANY monster, penetrate any armor or construct unless it is etherial in which case needs to be enchanted. Yes these weapons without enchantments are better than most very rare magic weapons. Slap a few enchants on them and they are up there with D&D legendaries like the sun blade.

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Reeling doesn't begin to compare to a +1 armor. It's a conditional property that doesn't even do anything unless you've been hit first, and even then only lasts for a brief time. +1 is always on. Reeling is also counterintuitive on an armor. The purpose of wearing armor is to make you not get hit in the first place. The better the armor, the worse Reeling becomes on it. Sure, it's a bonus, but the mechanics are at odds with each other.

It makes more sense on a Shield where it triggers on a miss, i.e. block. But then again it perfectly highlights how BG3 only animates dodges in combat. Dodge > Reeling.. what?

The way the Adamantine Forge is set up as something exceptionally amazing, it sure doesn't deliver. There's a recurring feeling in BG3 that there's a complete disconnect between the story and the gameplay. "Legendary heroes", "all-powerful Wizards" and "infernal commanders of Hell" are level 1. The legendary Adamantine Forge of the Underdark that Drow die for produces weapons and armor that can't match what the refugee Tiefling smith had to offer.

BG3 wants so hard to be epic.

Even at low levels and the low level mechanics can't match that. I wish Larian could show some restraint and leave room for things to grow dynamically. Compare to BG1 where you go to Nashkel mines where you have a mundane iron crisis to investigate. Low level content for low level characters. You don't find some legendary forge in the Underdark after already encountering Mind Flayers, Devils, Hags, Spectators, Drow, Bulette, Minotaurs, Githyanki and Dragons. And that's why the Forge also feels disappointing. They could have saved it for level 7-8 with some really amazing weapons and armor for those levels. But I guess at level 7 we will be teleporting between planes and meeting gods, then.

They will eventually balance the equipment so that the adamantine gear will be at the top when you discover it. But that doesn't really shake the feeling of fake epicness.

Last edited by 1varangian; 05/11/21 08:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
BG3 wants so hard to be epic.

Even at low levels and the low level mechanics can't match that. I wish Larian could show some restraint and leave room for things to grow dynamically. Compare to BG1 where you go to Nashkel mines where you have a mundane iron crisis to investigate. Low level content for low level characters. You don't find some legendary forge in the Underdark after already encountering Mind Flayers, Devils, Hags, Spectators, Drow, Bulette, Minotaurs, Githyanki and Dragons. And that's why the Forge also feels disappointing. They could have saved it for level 7-8 with some really amazing weapons and armor for those levels. But I guess at level 7 we will be teleporting between planes and meeting gods, then.

I said this already somewhere else. It's storyline/game design 101. You need to start small, maybe give a glimpse of high level enemies in the prologue, but then hit on a small fisher village aka Nashkel mines and fight kobolds.

I get that Larian needs to grab attention and BG3 needs to sell. But that's what a prologue is for. Afterwards, you can take a step back, you don't need to continuously throw high level enemies and allies at players. A common hunter or peasant girl can also be interesting if written well (Compare to Minsc or Jaheira).

It's the same in all great games:

(1) In BG1 you start in the middle of the wilderness, investigating kobolds in Nashkel.
(2) In Civilization, you start with a single settler and build a civilization flying to the stars
(3) In 3d Shooters you start with a crappy pistol, encounter more and more dangerous enemies and get more and more powerful weapons
(4) In Command and Conquer/Starcraft, you start with basic units, encounter more dangerous enemies and get better units to tackle them

-> In all of these games, a part of the game is starting small and encountering more and more powerful enemies and weapons

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And Grym, the legendary Eternal Guardian of the Forge.

Clubbed to death by a 4th level Fighter. But it could have been a 1st level Fighter because the fight is 100% about puzzle or exploits and 0% D&D rules.

It could be a 50%/50% split and it would perhaps still feel appropriate. But the way Larian introduce epic looking content too early and throw D&D rules out the window just makes it fall flat, both challenge and reward.

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I don't feel you are being entirely fair to Larian here. We have been fighting bandits in the ruins, goblins outside the druid grove, several packs of goblins in the village, an owlbear, goblins near the goblin camp (I didn't kill the goblin leaders or free the druid - sorry tieflings your on your own), a swamp hag and her red caps, gnolls, a gith patrol, a pack of ogres, minotaurs, weird burrow monstes, hook horrors, duergar slavers, an angry magic mushroom... true we are only level 4, but I think we would be level 7 without the level cap. My point is that we have actually had quite an adventure and when I read my list of defeated enemies it seems to be steadily increasing in challenge. So to me it would seem fine that the story at this point rewarded us with something nice. Truly we are not killing quite as many low level monsters before progressing as we did in BG1, but that is because DnD has changed, evolved if you will, even if you think the old way was more enjoyable. I think bg3 would feel padded and take entirely too long to play if we had to kill 3-4 times as many enemies to level up and progress the story. Also another change they made in 5th Edition was that monsters on higher levels should not be as invincible as they were in the old days, and also monsters several levels below you should still be able to hurt you so it works both ways, makes the challenges a bit more fluid. In 3rd edition (which I think BG1 was) there was a span of maybe 2 levels above and below you could meet a monster. If you were 3 levels below it would simply just munch the party and 3 levels above it would be zero challenge. I´m glad they changed that.

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
In 5e ... adamantine weapons, bolts or arrows always do critical hits.

Only to objects. Still, giving the major benefit of adamantine armor to generic metal helmets pretty much ruins adamantine in BG3.

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With how the adamantine forge was hyped up by the clues you can find in the underdark, I was slightly disappointed with the weapons and armor. I mean they are not bad, but they are also not material for legends, if you understand what I mean. I would like them to get a bit of a buff.

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Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
In 5e ... adamantine weapons, bolts or arrows always do critical hits.

Only to objects. Still, giving the major benefit of adamantine armor to generic metal helmets pretty much ruins adamantine in BG3.

Yeah, I fear their design philosophy creates more problems than it fixes. If protection from critical hits from the common helmet is extended to enemies, there will be little point in having a Champion subclass for the Fighter. Further, I don't want my party immune to critical hits, and if this property is tied to all helmets I won't be able to use any of the magical helmets I find. This property should be restricted to Adamantine Armor, so there is something cool about it, no homebrew needed.

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Agree, simply swap the effects of helmets and adamantine armour - give reeling to helmets - give crit prevention to adamantine armor, and you've already made the game so much better.

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Originally Posted by Muldeh
Agree, simply swap the effects of helmets and adamantine armour - give reeling to helmets - give crit prevention to adamantine armor, and you've already made the game so much better.

+1

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Easy solution...what we can make in the forge is crap, because we don't have the wisdom of the masters.

Drop a hint to this and leave the quest to finish a master weapon unfinished.

There is a portal to the forge to return later...

At higher levels, IF and only IF you have uncovered all the clues, you can find a memory shard that will grant you the wisdom of the ancient master crafters (Hope you saved some inspiration rolls).

In your memories...more quests!...a vault with more molds and master craft regents (I play Pike TYVM) . Add some very nasty Drow that guard the path to this vault...throw in a High level Beholder...and what the hell...some Driders and nasty High Priestesses of Lolth....YUM!!! Oh and you better have true seeing and some high level spells to uncover the runes and clues on this journey.

We should be close to end game at this point so "Daddy needs a new pair of Shoes!".

P.S. Some enchantment options...Cuz options.

Last edited by Van'tal; 13/03/22 04:54 PM.

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