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Originally Posted by auriejir
as for the playersexual thing, yeah, it would definitely not hurt to have a baseline preference from the followers and them requiring a bit more "work" in order to convince them to see us as a romance target, with potentially an initial rejection and then the character coming back after some time passed...
I don't think that an initial rejection based on sexuality followed by a later acceptance would be a good implementation. That would seem to imply that sexuality is a choice and you can make someone be attracted to you by perseverance even if you're the "wrong" gender for their sexuality.

An initial caution - "I've never been in a relationship with a man so let's take it slow okay?" - is fine, but an outright "I'm not attracted to men" [time passes] "okay now I'm attracted to men" is...not great.

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Let's just randomize companions' sexuality every playthrough... laugh More realistic for both the player and their character NOT to know their preferences, no? smile

Personally, I dislike romances in BG3 and their current (approval-based) implementation and have little hope this changes. I'd rather Larian's (writing/voiceacting) work/effort went just about anywhere else...

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D&D doesn't care about queer, as it doesn't care about homos and it doesn't care about straights. There is no love parade, no gay marriage and no civil rights for trans.

And you know why? Because it's a fantasy fiction world which doesn't care about real world politics and social concerns.

And I am tired of people bringing that kind of irrelevant stuff into my hobby.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I said it countless times and i say it again, even tho it may not be directly related to the topic ...
Companions should have sexual prefferences (both gender and race) and react with different way to our proposal (also should not propose themselves, unless we match both their prefferences).

Like: Wyll like Woman ... Human, Elf, Drow or Tiefling
(I take the liberation to presume that Mizora can act as a proof that he would obviously not have problems with horns and tails ... laugh )
And you showcase the issue with this idea. I don't recall Wyll expressing interest in tieflings or drow in the game. Wyll constantly tries to flirt with Lae'zel and prefers her to Shadowheart. There is even some humorous banter because of that. And Lae'zels looks can hardly be considered a beauty standard in this setting. So my personal interpretation of Wyll's romantic inclinations would be different from yours. And I am pretty sure it is different for other players too.

The moment you start imposing restrictions on a system that was previously open, you will get a lot of unhappy players who would find that the romances they have pursued in the EA are suddenly not possible anymore. And a lot of negative feedback as a result. I doubt that Larian would be interested in this.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
An initial caution - "I've never been in a relationship with a man so let's take it slow okay?" - is fine, but an outright "I'm not attracted to men" [time passes] "okay now I'm attracted to men" is...not great.

Quoting this to second it; I generally like the shape of what Ragnarok has to say here - that everyone should be ultimately available in a player-sexual way, but that that should not abolish them having individuality and personality, which includes various leanings and preferences - those leanings and preferences, because of the ultimate player-sexual end point, should not be absolutes, and if you're running against how they might normally lean, then some acknowledgement of this - while still moving forward - would be nice, and would make the interpersonal setting feel that much more realistic.

Currently, in another game I'm involved in, there is an NPC who has only ever been with other women, and generally considers that to be her preference, however, since she's been travelling with the party: while she's been physically attracted to a couple of the female party members to various degrees, she couldn't really make friends with one of them, and the other doesn't see her 'that way'... however, one of the male party members has bonded with her very closely, and they share a great many similarities in beliefs, outlooks and desires for the world around them... over the past few months of game time, they've developed a very tentative affection for one another, and she's been working out a lot of very confused and uncertain feelings. Just recently there was a very sweet evening conversation between them where she explained that she preferred girls, and always had, but that she liked him, and that he was sweet, and kind and that she'd never been attracted to boys, and still wasn't, but that he was nice, and she thought maybe, it would be nice to try to see if this goes any further... but that she's nervous about it, and wants to move carefully... she was so adorably embarrassed about it all and he was really sweet and supportive it was a very nice little conversation. They haven't gone any further than hugs and occasional kisses so far, and likely won't for a while, as they're carefully seeing what they're each okay with... but it's really nice; this is, to me, the case of how an adaptable player-sexual npc should be done. She's clearly got, and still has, her own lesbian preference, and the ways that that impacts related parts of her character still do, but her relationship with this player is a stronger element than her normal physical preferences, for this specific, particular situation, and so it's progressing tentatively and carefully, but it is progressing.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
D&D doesn't care about queer, as it doesn't care about homos and it doesn't care about straights. There is no love parade, no gay marriage and no civil rights for trans.

And you know why? Because it's a fantasy fiction world which doesn't care about real world politics and social concerns.

And I am tired of people bringing that kind of irrelevant stuff into my hobby.

Amen.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I don't think that an initial rejection based on sexuality followed by a later acceptance would be a good implementation. That would seem to imply that sexuality is a choice and you can make someone be attracted to you by perseverance even if you're the "wrong" gender for their sexuality.

An initial caution - "I've never been in a relationship with a man so let's take it slow okay?" - is fine, but an outright "I'm not attracted to men" [time passes] "okay now I'm attracted to men" is...not great.
curiously, that's exactly what I did not wanted to convey... I tried many different formulations and none were satisfying... anyway, the idea was the character initially stating what they usually do, what their comfort zone is and gives some kind of metric as to how far off the proposition is for them. then after some time, they could potentially come around. I'm not advocating for any form of insistence from the player or a binary change, more something like experimentation with potentially something like a definitive "no" if the character's preferences are too far away from what our character is... which I would not necessarily appreciate but it would be a great characterization...
on the opposite side of the idea, the character might discover something new and like it, that is what I was going in my previous post...

Originally Posted by Nyanko
D&D doesn't care about queer, as it doesn't care about homos and it doesn't care about straights. There is no love parade, no gay marriage and no civil rights for trans.

And you know why? Because it's a fantasy fiction world which doesn't care about real world politics and social concerns.

And I am tired of people bringing that kind of irrelevant stuff into my hobby.
D&D is just a framework for real people to live their fantasy. as a white male, I spent 25 years in my life before realizing what representation even meant. why ? because it was absolutely obvious to me that everyone could be anything. but it turns out if you never see people like you doing specific things, you might end up thinking that there is a reason for this and the reason is people like you simply can't do it... it might be that those persons absolutely lack imagination or that our society is built around the idea that those in power will do all they can to stay in power, I am not quite sure, but when I see backlash at the simple idea of bringing diversity, I really think that some people absolutely lack imagination...

Last edited by auriejir; 14/11/21 03:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
And you showcase the issue with this idea. I don't recall Wyll expressing interest in tieflings or drow in the game. Wyll constantly tries to flirt with Lae'zel and prefers her to Shadowheart. There is even some humorous banter because of that. And Lae'zels looks can hardly be considered a beauty standard in this setting. So my personal interpretation of Wyll's romantic inclinations would be different from yours. And I am pretty sure it is different for other players too.

The moment you start imposing restrictions on a system that was previously open, you will get a lot of unhappy players who would find that the romances they have pursued in the EA are suddenly not possible anymore. And a lot of negative feedback as a result. I doubt that Larian would be interested in this.
First of all ... it was example. laugh
Second ... it would not be set by players, but by developers, who actualy know what partner would Wyll preffer, since they are the one who decide it. laugh
And third and last ... what are you talking about? o_O
"Romances they have purused in EA not possible anymore", have you even read it whole? The point there is that any romance is possible, exactly bcs people would be dissapointed if they are blocked out for some character strictly.

Originally Posted by Niara
Currently, in another game I'm involved in, there is an NPC who has only ever been with other women, and generally considers that to be her preference, however, since she's been travelling with the party: while she's been physically attracted to a couple of the female party members to various degrees, she couldn't really make friends with one of them, and the other doesn't see her 'that way'... however, one of the male party members has bonded with her very closely, and they share a great many similarities in beliefs, outlooks and desires for the world around them... over the past few months of game time, they've developed a very tentative affection for one another, and she's been working out a lot of very confused and uncertain feelings. Just recently there was a very sweet evening conversation between them where she explained that she preferred girls, and always had, but that she liked him, and that he was sweet, and kind and that she'd never been attracted to boys, and still wasn't, but that he was nice, and she thought maybe, it would be nice to try to see if this goes any further... but that she's nervous about it, and wants to move carefully... she was so adorably embarrassed about it all and he was really sweet and supportive it was a very nice little conversation. They haven't gone any further than hugs and occasional kisses so far, and likely won't for a while, as they're carefully seeing what they're each okay with... but it's really nice; this is, to me, the case of how an adaptable player-sexual npc should be done. She's clearly got, and still has, her own lesbian preference, and the ways that that impacts related parts of her character still do, but her relationship with this player is a stronger element than her normal physical preferences, for this specific, particular situation, and so it's progressing tentatively and carefully, but it is progressing.
This really sounds great, but to implement it this way that would require A LOT of additional work. :-/


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As a lesbian woman, I'm already happy, that there are same sex relationships in most games nowaday. I mean - remember how we women only had Anomen (aka one of the worst companions ever) as a love interest in the old games?
I would be ok, if the sexuality of the companions would be addressed, but that is not a focus for me, since I'm as romantic as a stone. But it would make sense, if they have some preferred gender for example and maybe are surprised, that they find themselves attracted to a pc from the other gender - would give the characters some depth.
I mostly play romances to see, if they add storyline, so I often do all available romances - male and female - and then settle for my favorite one (which is Shadowheart in BG3).


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
This really sounds great, but to implement it this way that would require A LOT of additional work. :-/

Not really, at least, not to do in basic form... it would just be the kind of structure that we're already talking about; characters with preferences but which are nevertheless open to pursuit by anyone, and the way the various relationship building dialogues and cutscenes run are different based on whether the pursuing player is in line with their usual preferences or not.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
This really sounds great, but to implement it this way that would require A LOT of additional work. :-/

Not really, at least, not to do in basic form... it would just be the kind of structure that we're already talking about; characters with preferences but which are nevertheless open to pursuit by anyone, and the way the various relationship building dialogues and cutscenes run are different based on whether the pursuing player is in line with their usual preferences or not.

I mean it would work like that with Shadow ...
That night scene ia almost inocent ...

But it would need some new scenes for most others ... especialy those that go to bed so fast as Astarion.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
First of all ... it was example. laugh
Second ... it would not be set by players, but by developers, who actualy know what partner would Wyll preffer, since they are the one who decide it. laugh
And third and last ... what are you talking about? o_O
"Romances they have purused in EA not possible anymore", have you even read it whole? The point there is that any romance is possible, exactly bcs people would be dissapointed if they are blocked out for some character strictly.
The preferences of companions are now "set" by the players, since you can create your own headcanon story; the page is blank, so to speak. (Edit: And I'd point out that this is what the developers have decided. )For that to be set by the developer's, you'd first have to take this away from the player. And the companions have been available for a long time, which means people have their own interpretations. Frankly considering how much of a discussion changing Minthara's haircut caused (and the directions that discussion went), I think that keeping the companions playersexual makes sense as the safer choice.

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I think you're missing what Rag is saying, Ash... he's not suggesting that the character not be playersexual - he's saying precisely that they should be, but just that they should have developed characteristics in that field, which will modify how their dialogues and scenes play out if you do pursue them.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
I mean - remember how we women only had Anomen (aka one of the worst companions ever) as a love interest in the old games?

We can fix him! :P


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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by fylimar
I mean - remember how we women only had Anomen (aka one of the worst companions ever) as a love interest in the old games?

We can fix him! :P

I'd rather used modded companions. I seldom bothered with ANomen anymore after the first playthrough.


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It's understandable wink

Anomen is a lot more interesting as a concept character than as an actual party member in my mind, let alone a romantic interest. I just wanted to make a "fix him" joke.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
It's understandable wink

Anomen is a lot more interesting as a concept character than as an actual party member in my mind, let alone a romantic interest. I just wanted to make a "fix him" joke.

Yeah, he might sound interesting on paper, but sadly, he is just annoying. His whole plot is about some entitled person making demands basically.


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Anomen...I don't know *how* I managed to get through his entire romance. A shame the other male romances (Valygar, Haer'Dalis) were cut. Although the Viconia romance can also be said to be rather unhealthy, Anomen always seemed rather uncomfortably 'real' and IMO he certainly shouldn't have been the only option for female characters.


Although I didn't always like the idea of exclusively 'player-sexual' romance options, experience has taught me that if they aren't treated that way, they always end up skewing heavily. Queer romance options, options for female characters invariably get lesser priority-they are the ones that get cut, or get less work put into them.

I do wish that it extended a bit more to the writing though? All of the party members bar Asterion are written as being solely interested in the opposite sex everywhere except where you romance them, where the player character's gender isn't really mentioned at all.

I kinda feel like the player's gender and perhaps choice of race should impact the romance scenes and dialogue a little more than it does. Shadowheart and Minthara get over the player being a elf or gith really fast. Wyll and Gale talk about the women in their lives a *lot*.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
His whole plot is about some entitled person making demands basically.
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Anomen always seemed rather uncomfortably 'real'
haven't played bg 1 or 2 but it checks out

the medium is rapidly evolving, if bioware ( which is one of the main reference in the vast-character-pool / limited-party / romance-when-not-fighting genre ) is of any indication, they started with three possible romance in mass effect 1 ( space racist girl for guys, space nerd guy for girls, genderless space squid for everyone ) and added more options in the next games, with various degrees of success...
the way they did it, with characters having their own preferences is interesting for fleshing out the characters and, if you play the custom character straight with a self insert, you might even never notice the others aren't interested since neither are you...
I guess, the problem might be if you like a character which is defined as not interested, as much as it is realistic, it's a bit sad... maybe, there is the idea of character interpretation but this is another story

Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Wyll and Gale talk about the women in their lives a *lot*.
seeing wyll hit on laezel, then shadowheart while my (female) character stands just next to them was almost vexing... until shadowheart destroyed him and then, I was almost sorry for him. almost.
I mean, I wouldn't have tried him, his oath-of-glory-paladin act is rather annoying but, for all those years playing a female character, I rarely notice a difference in the way my character is perceived... and I don't know what to think about it. ( maybe that's a question for another topic ) the companions reacting a bit more to our race and gender might be interesting ( I would also like to be able to comment on the banter but asking for user input would kill the dynamic... )

back to the subject, it indeed kind of make no sense for some companions to be down to anything but I won't judge. on the other hand, I wouldn't say no to more female companion, at least one or two more, just to have a full party. ( maybe the bard in the druid grove ? )

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I disagree with the OP. It is better that the game doesn't make a big deal of it. There doesn't need to be some pronouncement of "I'M GAY!" just like there doesn't need to be any statement towards a member of the same gender saying "I'M STRAIGHT". It is simple enough that you can politely decline or accept any and all advancements from NPCs that aren't welcomed. It doesn't feel contrived or fake, it feels sincere because it truly doesn't matter. If you make the right choices in game, an NPC will be interested in you, or not, your choice. Any microscope on their sexual preference is a waste of time and cry for attention. Maybe in Forgotten Realms they have gotten over the need to label themselves. We could only be so lucky.

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