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That might be a bit too much for Larian to keep track of

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Originally Posted by timebean
Do we know it is the tadpole Raphael is interested in and not something else? Like the artifact?

Enjoy these timelines, btw. Helpful to think thru it all.

Yeah, we don't know for sure that the tadpole is what Raphael is interested in. It's just the strongest guess right now, especially because Gale offers it up as a possibility.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by timebean
Do we know it is the tadpole Raphael is interested in and not something else? Like the artifact?

Enjoy these timelines, btw. Helpful to think thru it all.

Yeah, we don't know for sure that the tadpole is what Raphael is interested in. It's just the strongest guess right now, especially because Gale offers it up as a possibility.

True. But I think Gale’s intelligence and confidence can also be his biggest detriments. If you won’t help him, he goes off to find Raphael to make a deal. My hunch is that he fails to make that deal because Raphael does not care about the tadpole(s). It could be something unexpected that he wants…like Mizora or the artifact…or even Shadowheart and her glowy hand powers. Tadpole seems too obvious to me, although such a thing would be good for recruitment via coercion/control…much easier to get bodies for the Blood War that way.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
That might be a bit too much for Larian to keep track of

Also, Szass Tam changed things in Thay. Could be that they're going for Szass Tam has made it so that other races can now be Red Wizards or something.

I hadn't given much thought to any of the racial aspects because the way the books and tomes were laid out, it just seemed to make sense that Eliette was the apprentice. I'm going to have to delve into it further.

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Originally Posted by timebean
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by timebean
Do we know it is the tadpole Raphael is interested in and not something else? Like the artifact?

Enjoy these timelines, btw. Helpful to think thru it all.

Yeah, we don't know for sure that the tadpole is what Raphael is interested in. It's just the strongest guess right now, especially because Gale offers it up as a possibility.

True. But I think Gale’s intelligence and confidence can also be his biggest detriments. If you won’t help him, he goes off to find Raphael to make a deal. My hunch is that he fails to make that deal because Raphael does not care about the tadpole(s). It could be something unexpected that he wants…like Mizora or the artifact…or even Shadowheart and her glowy hand powers. Tadpole seems too obvious to me, although such a thing would be good for recruitment via coercion/control…much easier to get bodies for the Blood War that way.

The more I've thought about it, the more I think it's more complicated than Raphael wanting the tadpole.

Moonrise has captured Mizora. What exactly do they want from Mizora? She's a cambion, just like Raphael. I'm guessing there's a connection, and I don't just mean between Raphael and Mizora; rather, I mean a connection between Moonrise and these cambions. Surely the have a reason for wanting Mizora, other than they happened to stumble across her.

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And how does Astarion for in. After all, his back tattoos scars from Cazador are written in Infernal.

So what did Cazador have to do with devil's?

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This is a big question mark in my timeline, we know that BG:3 is a "sequel" to Descent into Avernus, Elturel is maybe a week or month Returned, when we start. We also know that Devils attacked Thorm, ??? We have a Cambion interested in our tadpole (or something else related), we have a githyanki device, that I for some reason think has an infernal connection (did it have infernal runes at one point?) , one of our companions will be an escaped lieutenant of Zariel (and our tadpole vision seems show she has a special connection to her) and of course Wyll has a pact with Mizora.

Most of our main characters already have some tangential connection to the main plot (...leaving out Tav... rolleyes) Shadowheart is a Sharran who was sent to take the Artifact, Lae'zel is a Githyanki see: Artifact, and Gale, though we don't know much about him, has some clear connections to Netherese magic, which we know is at play with the Tadpole. That leaves Wyll and Astarion, Wyll has an infernal connection being a Warlock and because of Mizora who's been taken to Moonrise (I should add a list of people taken to Moonrise) so really that Leaves Astarion, how can we fit him in? His master is a vampire, Cazador, who wrote, in Infernal, something on his back, a contract? a contract related to the Absolute, Zariel, Elturel or maybe the Artifact?

In FR lore I forget who the Vampire Hellknight is (it was retconned for the module anyway, I think) but he shows up during Descent doesn't he? Hmm I think that's a dead end but what else can you think of?

I'm also curious how they're going to deal with the resolution of Descent into Avernus, most people I imagine would expect Zariel to be redeemed at the end.

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The general canon rules for FR modules is that Adventurers do not ultimately change the status quo of the situation - so if a Lich is trying to bath the world in a life extinguishing fog - they are presumed to succeed in stopping it. If a devil drags a city into the hells, they are presumed to see it returned... however, if graa'zt is involved in a demonic soul claiming plot, the adventurers are presume to stop it, but they are NOT presumed kill or otherwise dethrone him in the process...

So, what this means for the "general rules" of module canon... is that Elturel was rescued, but Zariel, unfortunately, is not presumed to have been redeemed.

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I keep wondering, how did the companions end up on board the Nautiloid? No one says, and we don't get an option to ask.

1. Shadowheart. Did she sneak on board and steal the weapon? Or did she get her hands on the weapon somewhere else, and then ultimately get captured and taken aboard the Nautiloid?

--at least two groups knew the weapon was on the Nautiloid. The githyanki and the True Souls. Did they also know it had been stolen by a Sharran agent who had been captured by the Mind Flayers?

___

2. Astarion. He says, "They took you, just the same as me." He said he was in Baldur's Gate when those beasts snatched him.

--was he taken randomly? Or is it more likely that his capture was arranged? And if so, by whom? Cazador, perhaps. Did Cazador arrange for Astarion to be captured by the mind flayers in some sort of trade or bargain?

___

3. Wyll.

--were they after Wyll or was he just in their way of getting Mizora?

___

4. Gale.

--there's Netherese magic inside of him, requiring him to feed off of magic items.

--there's Netherese magic doing something to the tadpoles.

--coincidence?

____

5. Lae'zel. Her creche is in the Tears following the moon. How the heck did she end up on the Nautiloid? It's not like she has some story about being in a patrol that was overwhelmed by mind flayers.

--so she just happens to be on the same Nautiloid that another githyanki creche is chasing because they know the weapon is on board?

--did Lae'zel's creche know the weapon was on board? (Lae'zel sure doesn't seem to know anything about the weapon.) Did her creche know she had been captured?

--it all feels too convenient; Lae'zel just happens to be a prisoner on board while another creche is chasing the Nautiloid for reasons not having to do with Lae'zel.

--no, Lae'zel almost certainly has to have something to do with the weapon, just somehow unknowingly.

--or maybe there's betrayal among the creches? It's portrayed as a gith artifact. Was it stolen, or did Lae'zel's creche allow it to be taken by the Sharrans? After all, the artifact seems to go to who it wants, as if it's sentient.

____

6. Karlach.

--does her story add up? She's on the front lines of the war, sees the Nautiloid, flies up to it somehow, gets on board in an effort to escape the hells, and then...

--gets a tadpole in her eye?

--there wasn't much time for her to get captured and have a tadpole forced into her eye. The ship was under attack and seriously damaged by this point, and it's questionable how many mind flayers were going about their business.

--these are tadpoles that have to be put into someone's eye. It's not like catching the cooties because she got on board.

***

There's something else I also think is worth considering.

The opening scene shows a mind flayer put the tadpoles in Tav and Lae'zel's eyes. This is before the gith attack. This is before the Nautiloid went to the hells and found itself attacked by devil kin.

There were dead mind flayers laying all around. Why? Who killed them? What happened right before that left mind flayers dead?

Almost as if there was a rebellion on the ship.

Did one faction of the mind flayers change the plans? Is it possible that the regular mind flayers were delivering the bodies to Moonrise, but then another mind flayer betrayed the cause?

Perhaps that led to a modified tadpole getting put into the origin eyes?

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I think that the assault on the ship by the Gith has already been ongoing for a while by the time the game starts, and they are responsible for the dead mindlayers.

I don't remember if Shadowheart and company raided the Gith or the Mindlayers to get the Dodecahedron. If it was the Mindflayers they might also be the ones responsible for the dead crew.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
I think that the assault on the ship by the Gith has already been ongoing for a while by the time the game starts, and they are responsible for the dead mindlayers.

I don't get that impression.

The scene starts. Mind flayer comes through the door. There's no sense of urgency or concern. It takes the time to infect Lae'zel, and then Tav.

The mind flayer leaves, glancing at a dead mind flayer on the way out. It goes to the helm and begins the attack on the city (Elturel, I believe).

Now the gith arrive, and now there is a sense of urgency. The attack is on. The mind flayer responds. The dragons engage in battle with the ship, and the mind flayer takes evasive action, traveling dimensions.

This scene is not the picture of an ongoing attack from before the scene started. It's the picture of:

Something big happened and upset the natural balance on the ship. Now, because whatever went down just happened, this mind flayer is conducting business, infecting the origin characters. In fact, the mind flayer is bent on acquiring even more people. This is an epic raid on a city, almost as if the mind flayer were desperate for additional people.

The gith arriving complicate matters.

Originally Posted by Dexai
I don't remember if Shadowheart and company raided the Gith or the Mindlayers to get the Dodecahedron. If it was the Mindflayers they might also be the ones responsible for the dead crew.

I don't think there's anything to remember because I don't think it was ever said one way or the other. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, Shadowheart and friends might have been responsible for the mayhem on the ship prior to the start. That was my initial thought, but I don't see any of Shadowheart's people lying around dead.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I think Shadowheart is Ketheric Thorm's daughter.

It also occurs to me that Shadowheart's quest description is:

Daughter of Darkness

I'm not saying this proves that she's Ketheric Thorm's daughter, but it does nudge me more in that direction.

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Here's a twist. Thorm's daughter was a Selunite, like her father. She dies, tragically. Thorm falls etc. etc. fast forward, Thorm has come back, and with the Absolute's help, recreated or put his dead daughters memories into some urchin he's found, Shadowheart isn't the original, but being exposed to all the places familiar to Thorm's daughter is messing with her implanted memories.

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Ok. Confirmed 2 things. Apprentice backpack was where apprentice journal was in Whispering Depths, so it seems clear Eliette was not the apprentice of the Red Wizard, like you said.

I wonder if they had the journal elsewhere originally because I could have sworn it was with the Eliette journals and hence the confusion.

But a Red Wizard is Mulan human, and Eliette was high elf, so that coupled with the apprentice backpack near a dead body seems pretty clear that the apprentice was escaping and was killed by Eliette.

As for Shadowheart, yeah, I triggered her classroom scene again. Seemed pretty clear they were suggesting the kids were kidnapped by Dark Justiciars since SH says it seemed like the work of her brothers and sisters.

Also, it triggered her strange memory magic moment, so the theory about her being one of the kids originally does hold a lot of merit. It seems almost as if Selune's power tried to course through her while she was reading the school book about the abducted kids and their families. Then she said memories were trying to resurface. Hmmm...

Her magic moment only occurs around something related to Selune, so...

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Is it just around Selune? I'm trying to remember. You can get her to admit worshipping Shar in the Owlbear cave, but the magic hand thing looks like it only occurs around remnants of the Dark Justiciar attacks. Can anyone confirm that?

I think the triggers for her hand are: the school book, the justiciar helmet, the broken statue near the windmill. Triggers for her faith are all those, but also, the shrine in the owlbear cave and maybe entering the temple of selune? I've been clearing this speech challenge so early my last two playthroughs that I'm not sure if you can trigger it there

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Here's a question that's always plagued me, and it's another reason I thought the apprentice was Eliette.

Why is there spider eggs and webs in the Necromancer's Lair where the Necromancy of Thay is located? Did Eliette get into the Necromancer's Lair and lay eggs there? If so, why and how?

???

And what's with the spider egg in the Harper's Camp area in the pouch with the coins that the spiders are guarding? Is it special for some reason?

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Originally Posted by JandK
I keep wondering, how did the companions end up on board the Nautiloid? No one says, and we don't get an option to ask.

1. Shadowheart. Did she sneak on board and steal the weapon? Or did she get her hands on the weapon somewhere else, and then ultimately get captured and taken aboard the Nautiloid?

--at least two groups knew the weapon was on the Nautiloid. The githyanki and the True Souls. Did they also know it had been stolen by a Sharran agent who had been captured by the Mind Flayers?

___

2. Astarion. He says, "They took you, just the same as me." He said he was in Baldur's Gate when those beasts snatched him.

--was he taken randomly? Or is it more likely that his capture was arranged? And if so, by whom? Cazador, perhaps. Did Cazador arrange for Astarion to be captured by the mind flayers in some sort of trade or bargain?

___

3. Wyll.

--were they after Wyll or was he just in their way of getting Mizora?

___

4. Gale.

--there's Netherese magic inside of him, requiring him to feed off of magic items.

--there's Netherese magic doing something to the tadpoles.

--coincidence?

____

5. Lae'zel. Her creche is in the Tears following the moon. How the heck did she end up on the Nautiloid? It's not like she has some story about being in a patrol that was overwhelmed by mind flayers.

--so she just happens to be on the same Nautiloid that another githyanki creche is chasing because they know the weapon is on board?

--did Lae'zel's creche know the weapon was on board? (Lae'zel sure doesn't seem to know anything about the weapon.) Did her creche know she had been captured?

--it all feels too convenient; Lae'zel just happens to be a prisoner on board while another creche is chasing the Nautiloid for reasons not having to do with Lae'zel.

--no, Lae'zel almost certainly has to have something to do with the weapon, just somehow unknowingly.

--or maybe there's betrayal among the creches? It's portrayed as a gith artifact. Was it stolen, or did Lae'zel's creche allow it to be taken by the Sharrans? After all, the artifact seems to go to who it wants, as if it's sentient.

____

6. Karlach.

--does her story add up? She's on the front lines of the war, sees the Nautiloid, flies up to it somehow, gets on board in an effort to escape the hells, and then...

--gets a tadpole in her eye?

--there wasn't much time for her to get captured and have a tadpole forced into her eye. The ship was under attack and seriously damaged by this point, and it's questionable how many mind flayers were going about their business.

--these are tadpoles that have to be put into someone's eye. It's not like catching the cooties because she got on board.

***

There's something else I also think is worth considering.

The opening scene shows a mind flayer put the tadpoles in Tav and Lae'zel's eyes. This is before the gith attack. This is before the Nautiloid went to the hells and found itself attacked by devil kin.

There were dead mind flayers laying all around. Why? Who killed them? What happened right before that left mind flayers dead?

Almost as if there was a rebellion on the ship.

Did one faction of the mind flayers change the plans? Is it possible that the regular mind flayers were delivering the bodies to Moonrise, but then another mind flayer betrayed the cause?

Perhaps that led to a modified tadpole getting put into the origin eyes?

To your point, I think we can assume that the nautiloid has been in operation for some time, it might even have been to Avernus already. I initially thought that part of why our indoctrination went wrong is because the Mind-Flayer was rushing our process in order to refill the ranks up. We see that they have a tank that accelerates the process greatly.

The main point though is this, the Artifact is Gith in origin, it's probable that the Mind-Flayer's stole it from them, suffered serious damage and casualties doing so, forcing them to raid for more thralls and hosts, even while being pursued by Gith, furthermore this raid by the Mind-Flayers on the Gith could be where they got Lae'zel, if she wasn't part of the party we see attacking the nautiloid.

With this in mind, we can't really take for granted how long we've been 'On Ice' in the nautiloid after being nabbed, the opening movie is of Elturel, most of our characters are from Baldur's Gate, Lae'zel is from Creche K'liir, Karlach hopped on during a jaunt in Avernus, Shadowheart's cult operates in Baldur's Gate too...but she's the one who has the Artifact, she also shows great animosity to the Gith, so I'd go so far as to say the Sharran commandos didn't assault the nautiloid but a Gith outpost where the Artifact was kept, only to be nabbed by the Mind-Flayers...coincidentally? or to in turn gain the Artifact

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Is it just around Selune? I'm trying to remember. You can get her to admit worshipping Shar in the Owlbear cave, but the magic hand thing looks like it only occurs around remnants of the Dark Justiciar attacks. Can anyone confirm that?

I think the triggers for her hand are: the school book, the justiciar helmet, the broken statue near the windmill. Triggers for her faith are all those, but also, the shrine in the owlbear cave and maybe entering the temple of selune? I've been clearing this speech challenge so early my last two playthroughs that I'm not sure if you can trigger it there

She also has the weird magic thing happen to her in a scene at camp.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Here's a question that's always plagued me, and it's another reason I thought the apprentice was Eliette.

Why is there spider eggs and webs in the Necromancer's Lair where the Necromancy of Thay is located? Did Eliette get into the Necromancer's Lair and lay eggs there? If so, why and how?

???

And what's with the spider egg in the Harper's Camp area in the pouch with the coins that the spiders are guarding? Is it special for some reason?

I've wondered about those webs and eggs also. They're not in the rest of the necromancer's area, just there behind the gate by the book. Not sure. I'm starting to think it might just be a weird design choice, but I would, of course, prefer those kind of things to be clues.

Originally Posted by Sozz
Here's a twist. Thorm's daughter was a Selunite, like her father. She dies, tragically. Thorm falls etc. etc. fast forward, Thorm has come back, and with the Absolute's help, recreated or put his dead daughters memories into some urchin he's found, Shadowheart isn't the original, but being exposed to all the places familiar to Thorm's daughter is messing with her implanted memories.

My first reaction is that it feels like a wild idea, and I wonder what leads you there.

Then I start asking myself why the Dark Justiciars might have been taking children. Was it to fill their ranks? Or maybe they were looking for a particular child?

And then I question whether they even were taking children, despite what Shadowheart says. Why would they kidnap children under the cover of darkness and mystery when they're prepared to outright raid the village?

I'm just not sure.

One thing I'd bet anything on: once we know the answers, there's gonna be a ton of folks talking about how obvious it all was, lol.

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Plans within plans.


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I believe that camp scene only happens as a follow-up to seeing the first 'hand' scene, could be wrong there.

As for why you take children, easier to condition, large meme below. We know Thorm was leeching off the village for at least a little while before he revealed himself.
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

As for the webs in the Necromancer's lab, I can't say, spiders get around? Though that one spider egg object you find in the Harper lookout has had my head spinning for a while now, It's got to mean something right?

From everything we're finding, did the Justiciar conflict happen around 30 years ago? Where do we get a timeline for that? GM4Him says 1371 but I'm not sure where that comes from. At this point I'm wondering of the Cult in BG is made up of the refugees from Moonrise, such as the stolen children, Half-Elves live slightly longer than humans...I'm not sure if SH fits in well there, especially if the interlude is from 1371 - 1492

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