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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Allow casting an action & bonus action spell in the same turn EXCEPT when the bonus action spell is from Sorcerer's Quicken.
Hmm ... interesting suggestion, but im not adding it. :-/

It would be unfair to let everyone else abuse absence of rule, while you will be punishing the only class that actualy need to spend some resource to abuse it. laugh

Im allways for options, but those options should aply same to everyone ... not single ruleset for Sorcerer, and second ruleset for everyone else, that is just wrong. :-/
This doesn't just punish sorcerer and isn't a "single ruleset for Sorcerer, and second ruleset for everyone else." It's "a single rule for Quicken Spell, and universal spell rules for every caster including sorcerer."

Quicken is a much bigger problem because you can turn any spell into a bonus action. Which allows for double fireball and other powerful spell combinations without needing to spend 2 levels on Fighter (and thus be 2 levels behind on spell progression). This is especially bad in BG3 because of the lack of a long rest limit, so a sorcerer effectively has infinite sorcery points. Normal bonus action spells are much weaker then full-action spells, so it's less of a problem to allow that for all casters.

I'm assuming that Larian also fixes the game so Haste doesn't allow the casting of an additional spell, which is unbalanced because of the exact problem above.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by 1varangian
If Larian insist on keeping this in because "being OP is fun", this nonsense needs to be contained in lower difficulty settings.
I disagree ...
Im allways against difficiulty settings "contain" any toggleable option. :-/

You should be able to turn this on/off even on Hard, if that difficiulty gives you power for enemies you want. :P

Toggles for every little detail are a developer's way of saying "we have no clue, figure it out yourself". If they can't figure out how to make 4-5 difficulty settings to cover every major playstyle, I wouldn't trust them to get much else right either.

And I don't want to have to wade through a huge list of toggles before I start to play. I want to click on "CORE RULES" and start playing.

***

There's too much debate on these forums whether or not some particular feature that could eventually fall under difficulty settings should be kept or added or brought back. Having even a rough sketch of difficulty settings would save a lot of trouble.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
By the time EKs get Fireball at level 13 it's probably not as gamebreaking. I guess the "power build" in BG3 could be a Sorcerer 9 / Fighter 2 that could erase all encounters with an alpha strike before they even get a turn.

That's true, I didn't take that into consideration; I just used Fireball as example because it had been mentioned before.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Dexai
It seems likely to me that extra attacks will be implemented as extra actions (just like the extra attack from Haste is implemented right now)
Really? I expected this to be implemented by adding ability that will do two strikes instead of one ...
(BTW i was unable to find it, but should we be able to attack two separate targets with multiattack or not?)

Yes, I think so, because of how Haste was implemented as just giving you another action "point" to use. I can be wrong, of course, and we'll see how they do it when we see it.

And yeah, they should be able to attack different targets or even move between attacks if they want to. From the Player's Handbook, Chapter 9: Combat, Movement and Position, Breaking Up Your Move (just getting all the subtitles in there since I can't give you a page number wink ):
Quote
Moving Between Attacks

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Dexai
action, action, Surge, action, action, Haste action
I dare to presume Surge also restores only one Action, just as it does now (doesnt it? didnt try on patch 6) while under effect of potion. smile

Depends entirely on whether you or I turn out to be correct about whether Extra Attack will be implemented as an extra attack or another action, I guess.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Dexai
limit it to one spell per action type. So a Hasted wizard could potentially Misty Step (bonus action) away from melee, throw a Fireball (action), but then not be able to throw a second Fireball with his Haste action but have to lob a cantrip at the enemy instead.
I cant quite imagine how would you like to explain this rule to new players. laugh

I would explain it like I just did. When a player tried to use another spell with another action type I would just have a red text notification appear that said they couldn't and why, just like how it does now when you can't move rocks and so on.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Reaply maybe ... dunno, have to keep researching. laugh
But Hex is regular leveled spell ... same as Misty Step, same as Healing Word ... and yet you cant use neither of those in same turn as any other spell that isnt Cantrip. O_o

So if this rule would be aplied ...
I dare to say that you would need to separate it into two turns ... like this:
1st round: Hex + Eldrich Blast (since that is cantrip, and therefore okey)
2nd round: Scorching Ray

Honestly I think that would be a fair trade off over two turns as it would give your melee classes a purpose. Misty step, hunters mark and hex are class specific support spells even though they are "levelled" they do no damage or apply combat disadvantage. Hex and hunters mark have a strict set of rules apply to the effects. You must attack with something that requires a ranged saving throw or a weapon otherwise it doesn't do anything. Potential damage is a best case scenario and very rarely applies max damage.

That said your point is valid obviously.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
This doesn't just punish sorcerer and isn't a "single ruleset for Sorcerer, and second ruleset for everyone else." It's "a single rule for Quicken Spell, and universal spell rules for every caster including sorcerer."
I dont see difference between those.
My Sorcerer can cast only one damaging leveled spell ... but your Cleric can easily cast two leveled heals. laugh
And you say that is balanced?
Let me laugh even harder (I feel like im using this meme really often lately laugh )

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Quicken is a much bigger problem because you can turn any spell into a bonus action. Which allows for double fireball and other powerful spell combinations without needing to spend 2 levels on Fighter (and thus be 2 levels behind on spell progression). This is especially bad in BG3 because of the lack of a long rest limit, so a sorcerer effectively has infinite sorcery points.
I have read that previously, much more than once ... and i still believe it would be unfair to limit only single mechanic and keep everything else unchanged. :-/

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Normal bonus action spells are much weaker then full-action spells, so it's less of a problem to allow that for all casters.
It depends on wich level you are checking ...

Warlock that can use Hex and Scorching ray in single turn on level 3 gets 3x2d6+3x1d6 ... 54 damage ... what enemy survives this on level 3? laugh
While he should only have 1d10+1d6 ... 16 ... still quite significant diference if you ask me. :-/

Sorcerer on the same level can with his Metamatic do 3x2d6 + 3x2d6 ... 72 damage ...
While he should only have 3x2d6 + 1d10 (presuming he will use Firebolt) ... 46 ...

And before anyone says it ... yes im aware that 72 is more than 54. laugh
But compared to their regular (aka rule aplied) damage potential, Warlock can do more than three times as much ... while Sorcerer dont even do double. laugh

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I'm assuming that Larian also fixes the game so Haste doesn't allow the casting of an additional spell, which is unbalanced because of the exact problem above.
That is different topic in my opinion.

Originally Posted by 1varangian
And I don't want to have to wade through a huge list of toggles before I start to play. I want to click on "CORE RULES" and start playing.
That is the idea im defending for last year, any time difficiulties come in some topic ...
You either pick your Difficiulty profile ... and play.
Or you then roll down to toggle options and adjust it just they way you like. :P

Just like you can do in Pathfinder. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 11/11/21 06:04 PM.

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I don't really mind being able to cast 2 healing spells.
I don't think it has bad consequences considering their homebrew system (monster stats, skills and so on).

But the sorcerer is going to be OP when we'll be able to cast level 3+ spells.

Dnd's rule is coherent while BG3's actual rule (or lack of...) will have terrible consequences on the class balance.

Think a bit further than "I like to cast misty step + a damage spell" and keep in mind we only have level 2 spells. 2 fireball, 2 lightning bolt, 2 haste, 2 wall of fire,... This would be absolutely ridiculous.

Your poll really lack interresting options but if I have to choose : DnD, definitely.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 11/11/21 06:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dexai
And yeah, they should be able to attack different targets or even move between attacks if they want to. From the Player's Handbook, Chapter 9: Combat, Movement and Position, Breaking Up Your Move (just getting all the subtitles in there since I can't give you a page number wink ):
Quote
Moving Between Attacks

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
That certainly changes things. laugh
In that case you are probably right ... another action indeed seems like the only way to implement this. :-/


Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Dexai
limit it to one spell per action type. So a Hasted wizard could potentially Misty Step (bonus action) away from melee, throw a Fireball (action), but then not be able to throw a second Fireball with his Haste action but have to lob a cantrip at the enemy instead.
I cant quite imagine how would you like to explain this rule to new players. laugh
I would explain it like I just did. When a player tried to use another spell with another action type I would just have a red text notification appear that said they couldn't and why, just like how it does now when you can't move rocks and so on.
That could work ...
But i meaned before they do something ... i mean its not hard to simply let all unusable spell icons to become inactive with red writing teling "you allready used simmilar action" ...
But how to explain it in advance ...

I mean:
If you say: "Cant use same spell twice" ... i would like to cast Fireball + Shatter ... would it be possible?
If you say: "Cant use same type of spells" ... i would like to cast Fireball + Magic Missiles ... would it be possible?
If you say: "Cant use second damaging spell" ... i would like to cast Fireball + Sleep ... would it be possible?
Take it that im DnD lame, i have no idea what "types" of spells are there ... laugh


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There are no notable breaks in the balance of the spell system caused by allowing bonus action spells to be cast alongside action spells by the same character in the same turn, with the exception of one notable high level BA spell combination, and sorcerer's quicken spell. No, Rag, the cleric spending their spell slots to cast a healing word and a cure wounds in the same turn is not a balance problem; healing is, until much higher level a generally very ineffective use of actual combat turns

In Larian's game, the smoothest way to make the spellcasting fair and flexible is to leave us with the ability to cast with all parts of our turn economy, without an arbitrary limitation, and to simply rewrite Quicken itself to read:

Quote
"Quickened Spell:
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting. If you cast a spell as a bonus action using this Metamagic, you can't use an action to cast another spell during the same turn, unless it is a cantrip."


This prevents the quicken spell power break, but still allows player to flexibly cast with their Actions and BAs elsewise - and also allows them to counterspell mid-turn if they need to, regardless of the situation.... which other folk's suggestions of other limitations ("Don't allow the casting of two levelled spells on a turn", etc.) tends to indelicately block out. So, this is the solution I'd like to push for on that score.

Last edited by Niara; 11/11/21 06:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Your poll really lack interresting options but if I have to choose : DnD, definitely.
I was just about to write: Ugh ... okey you win, i'l add it there ...
But then i find out i cant edit that pool. :-/

So ... is there something im missing, or is that really impossible? laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
This doesn't just punish sorcerer and isn't a "single ruleset for Sorcerer, and second ruleset for everyone else." It's "a single rule for Quicken Spell, and universal spell rules for every caster including sorcerer."
I dont see difference between those.
My Sorcerer can cast only one damaging leveled spell ... but your Cleric can easily cast two leveled heals. laugh
And you say that is balanced?
No. Your Sorcerer can cast two spells just as easily as my Cleric. The spells just naturally have to be a bonus action.

Your sorcerer can cast Misty Step (or Dragon's Breath or Magic Weapon) and Fireball; my Cleric can cast Spiritual Weapon (or Healing Word or Sanctuary) and Cure Wounds. But your cleric can't cast Heal and Cure Wounds because those are both actions, just like my sorcerer can't cast Fireball and Burning Hands.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
This doesn't just punish sorcerer and isn't a "single ruleset for Sorcerer, and second ruleset for everyone else." It's "a single rule for Quicken Spell, and universal spell rules for every caster including sorcerer."
I dont see difference between those.
My Sorcerer can cast only one damaging leveled spell ... but your Cleric can easily cast two leveled heals. laugh
And you say that is balanced?
No. Your Sorcerer can cast two spells just as easily as my Cleric. The spells just naturally have to be a bonus action.

Your sorcerer can cast Misty Step (or Dragon's Breath or Magic Weapon) and Fireball; my Cleric can cast Spiritual Weapon (or Healing Word or Sanctuary) and Cure Wounds. But your cleric can't cast Heal and Cure Wounds because those are both actions, just like my sorcerer can't cast Fireball and Burning Hands.
Yes, just like Wizard can, just like Warlock can ...

I dunno, it just dont feels right i cant help it. :-/
I see what you mean, i understand it ... but i just see that diferently. laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dunno, it just dont feels right i cant help it. :-/
I see what you mean, i understand it ... but i just see that diferently. laugh
That's totally fair for you to feel like that about quicken. There's always been a huge debate on these forums as to the balance of the bonus action + leveled spell restriction.

But that's your personal feelings, and you wouldn't want your personal feelings to affect this poll right? I was just advocating for the option to be put on the poll. I'm not even sure I'd agree with it; I also don't like the idea of a Cleric/Bard being able to cast a leveled spell AND Healing Word, since Healing Word is kind of OP in 5e and encourages whack-a-mole gameplay.

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I don't like the one spell restriction per turn. I also don't care that it creates any balance problems.
It is after all a single player game with OPTIONAL co-op.
Not everything has to be balanced in some way.

As I would change, when you cast a spell, you can only use spells of a lower level.
For example, if you use a level 3 spell, then you can only use level 2 spells and lower.
You can also make it accumulate.
It's not perfect, but it's better than wasting points on a cantrip (and much more fun).

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I am perfectly fine with being able to have spellcasters can as many leveled spells as they can in a round, only if the mobs can do it too and the AI is optimized so they will do so as often as possible.

Just think about how much fun it will be to have your party hit with 2-4 fireballs constantly. So much fun being nuked for total party kills without being able to do anything!

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I was just advocating for the option to be put on the poll.
And you win ... im willing to add it, but sadly Edit dont let me. laugh
Tell me how and i do it. laugh

//Edit: So i was asking The Composer if there is a way to edit a pool ... and there isnt any. frown
So we would have to start new pool. :-/

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 11/11/21 09:13 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by dwig
If you dip a pair of warlock levels you can get eldritch blast with charisma added per hit (so 2d10 + 2 X cha at level 5).
Im not sure what are you talking about here ...
As far as i know, Eldrich Blast dont become stronger as other cantrips, instead it gets another beam ...

And im not quire sure what do you mean by "dip" ... but if you are talking about multiclassing, i also believe that you would need to reach level 5 as Warlock to get that second beam.

Not sure how it works with feat Magic Initiate: Warlock tho ... i presume then you would get both Hex and second beam, but lost Eldrich Invocations ...
But on the other hand, Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer adds charisma modifier to related element since level 6 ... there is no Force, nor Necrotic Dragon tho. laugh

"Dip" is a common term for multiclassing where you grab only a few levels and go back to your original class.

In this case the dip is for two levels, to get eldritch blast and agonizing blast (and whatever you want for the other invocation).

Eldritch blast does indeed get more blasts when it scales. That is what makes it so strong with agonizing blast, because you get your charisma bonus added to each hit. If a level 5 character (3 sorc/2 war) casts it twice they get 4 beams (two for each cast) and each does 1D10+cha damage.

Dragon sorc also adds charisma to damage (provided the element matches their heritage) but with fire bolt (for instance) that just adds charisma once per cast, instead of once per beam. You get a lot more +cha with eldritch blast.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I was just advocating for the option to be put on the poll.
And you win ... im willing to add it, but sadly Edit dont let me. laugh
Tell me how and i do it. laugh

//Edit: So i was asking The Composer if there is a way to edit a pool ... and there isnt any. frown
So we would have to start new pool. :-/
Hooray for ancient, barely functional forums! /s :P

Another option for Quicken is for it to cost spell level + 2 points.
2 points to quicken a cantrip (and be able to use your action to cast any spell, even level 9)
3 points to quicken a 1st level spell (and still able to use action to cast any spell)
4 points to quicken a 2nd level spell ("")
etc

I have no idea how balanced this implementation would actually be. But at the very least it'd be interesting, add decision making without limiting possibilities, and isn't as unbalanced as being able to cast 2 fireballs for 2 or 3 sorcery points.

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I actualy think this us better for function ... editing pools would compromite results ...
But Composer had good idea for aolution i shall create other topic later today (when i get to computer writing on telefon is pain) and then ask him to move coments there so we can continue....

Anyway if you have any other idea for vote options niw is good time to twll me.


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So ...
As many of you probably know i just recently started a pool, since i was curious about wich option would people prefer in matter to solving restriction of casting during single turn ... yet i was quite fast told that my pool miss another option some people would certainly prefer. :-/
And while i absolutely despise that option, and find it incredibly unfair towards Sorcerers ... i had to admit that they got a point ... my intention was to find what would people prefer, and so i should accept what would people prefer no matter how much i would personaly hate that option. laugh

And since there is (for logical reasons) no way to edit pools ... i had to start another topic ...
I really hope nobody will this time tell me that some option is missing, since i would hate to start third topic. laugh
(I shall write to Composer and ask for moving coments to this one, so we can continue any potential debate here)

There. smile
Now when pretalk is done ... lets get to topic itself.

Exact wording for rule is:
Quote
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

Meaning:
Once you cast any leveled spell (aka, not cantrip) that uses Bonus Action (that is actualy important part), you should no longer be able to cast another leveled spell using Action.
Note that this rule dont forbid casting by using second action, or reaction.

But many combination we probably use would no longer be possible:
Misty step + any non-cantrip spell
Hex + any non-cantrip spell
Healing Word + any non-cantrip spell
And (most importantly as it seems) ... Any non-cantrip spell alterned by Metamagic: Quickened Spell + any non-cantrip spell

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I apology once more for repeating the same question to you, but i have to admit that my first pool had skewed results, and therefore was practicaly useless. laugh
This time i add option "other idea" so this would not repeat. laugh

Thank you all for your patience and your votes. smile

So what ruleset would you preffer?
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 12/11/21 12:23 PM

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Voted for allow it (as it is now).

As I wrote in the other thread, I love using Misty Step + a noncantrip spell or Healing Word + a noncantrip spell! So, I definitely wouldn’t want the rule added to all spells!

A toggle would be okay, too.

Having it just for metamagic is better than having it for everything, but I can’t see myself ever using metamagic points on quickened for a cantrip, so that would make quickened useless for me. Most of the objections that I saw had to do with fireball. A better option for me than excluding all spells from quickened would be to only exclude fireball from quickened but let other spells be used.

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