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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
5) After XXX time have the goblin attack the druid camp regardless OR have the Tieflings attack the goblins to attempt to get on the road. Being backed into a corner like the tieflings would cause them to do "something" rather than wait to die.
Please no timed quests!

+1

What you *could* do is a conditional advancement of the quest. For example, if you reach the Goblin camp, this might serve as a trigger that in the meantime, an attack on the grove occurs. If you get to act 2 without killing the bandit leaders, the druids grove might get wiped out.

But this would not be timed, but just advancing the quest at certain stages in the narration.

Last edited by Arne; 17/11/21 01:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Endlessdescent
They advertised one thing, delivered another, and whether or not it is good is beyond the point.
The funny part is that you see youreself as completely inocent in your example ... all their fault huh?

Actualy its like they Advertised something, you EXPECTED another, and then they delivered ...
Something that meets their advertising in their eyes, but not your expectations ...

No given promise was broken and you could theoreticaly know better what to expect if you were listen to their (and not just their) advertising more closely ... but you were like "yay pizza, lets get there" and then completely ignored what ingredients will be used. Funny enough, for last year there are terabites of content all over internet where people are complaining that salami was too dry, tomatoes too fade, or paste too thin (or thick, matter of prefferences) ... yet you refuse to listen to all those, since "yay pizza, me hungry" ... and now you are complaining that pizza you got dont meet your expectations ...
Question here: Is that really fair to blame the food for that? O_o

When the message one is trying to convey is being (widely) misinterpreted, blaming the receiver is generally a bad idea. It more likely means that the communication could have been handled better on the sender's side.
You are obviously very much in tune with the company and I have no doubt you are having the experience you expected from their claims, but it's also undeniable that many of us feel that our expectations have been somehow betrayed. I wish I had had your clarity, I wouldn't have bought the game.

I agree with pretty much everything that the OP said, this game does not feel like D&D for reasons that go beyond homebrew rules and game mechanics.

I see how such over the top characters could appeal to some people. Personally I find they cost the story and the immersion much more value than they add. I feel I wouldn't enjoy having Mr. Swen at my table, either as a player or DM.

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Originally Posted by Arne
If you get to act 2 without killing the bandit leaders, the druids grove might get wiped out.

But this would not be timed, but just advancing the quest at certain stages in the narration.
Advancing between acts sounds good to me. 😊 They could add a message to let people know to finish any quests they want to complete before moving to the next act.

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It is not a "timed quest" as it isn't a quest. It is a choice in a world that doesn't revolve around the player. Goblins plan to attack and destroy the camp, they don't necessarily want the tieflings dead just the druids, story options? Convince the tieflings to team up with the goblins for a free road to BG. It isn't super mario world where you need to complete level 1.1 to progress to level 1.2.

The player is a character in a living world that happens to exist and function before player got there right? If the player died on the ship and wasn't there to "save the day" what would happen? Currently in BG 3 absolutely nothing. The world would be midday forever and everything and everyone would wiggle about "awaiting player 1" to insert coin. The astral plane isn't as static as the BG world currently.

My suggestion wasn't "do this" my suggestion was "do something" or "something must happen". Inaction doesn't prevent the world from turning until you decide, you are not a deity at level 1. It rains, it gets windy, wildlife eat grass or get eaten. Causality!

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Originally Posted by lucad83
When the message one is trying to convey is being (widely) misinterpreted, blaming the receiver is generally a bad idea. It more likely means that the communication could have been handled better on the sender's side.
You are obviously very much in tune with the company and I have no doubt you are having the experience you expected from their claims, but it's also undeniable that many of us feel that our expectations have been somehow betrayed. I wish I had had your clarity, I wouldn't have bought the game.

A hundred times this. When so many people politely say that the goods are not as advertised, then the goods are not as advertised. If you disagree, good for you Ragnarok, but don't invalidate everyone elses legitimate perception.

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Originally Posted by Arne
To be fair, also BG2 had some of these issues:

(1) The introductory Irenicus dungeon was a mess of areas with crystals and Djinns, areas with prisoners, areas with Nymphs and forest, areas with clouds and other Djinns. It didn't make sense, it seemed as if they wanted to cram cool stuff into a small map.
(2) In Amn, you could literally walk into a random tavern, manipulate a picture on a wall and directly step into a Lich's tomb. With no corridors, rooms or maze like secret passages in between.
(3) The Underdark had a single map where Drow, Illithids, Duergar and Kuo Toa were crammed together, living almost next to each other.

-> all these issues are relatively minor in comparison, but they are also a bit sloppy. If you compare this to the undercity map of BG1 were you had a whole area of a destroyed city which basically only housed the final fight, there is a completely different design philosophy behind it.

(1) I partially agree, but it still makes way more sense than anything we see in BG3. Irenicus is an insanely powerful wizard, reasons for many/most prisoners being there are given IIRC. It is a high-level party dungeon (and in BG2, you do start as a reasonably high-level character), not unlike what you get in some D&D high-level P&P adventures.
(2) Don't remember that at all, which Lich was that?
(3) Drow had their own map, so did the Illithids and Kuo Toa, no? Then yeah, there was the in-between "hub" Underdark location which wasn't exactly huge, but as long as you have to "gather your party and venture forth" and travel between maps, you can at least pretend in your head-cannon these locations are reasonably far away from each other (even though IIRC there is no travel time). This is impossible with e.g. the druids/tieflings and goblins.

Also, BG2 is a 21 years old game, it is not unreasonable to expect BG3 being better and not _MUCH_ worse. I will absolutely agree that BG1 with it's many non-dense outdoor locations etc. definitely had a less theme-parky feeling than BG2.

And everything being crammed together isn't the only problem with BG3's world/location building (though it's a major one) - even if you consider only a specific location where people (or goblins...) live, there are major verisimilitude issues.

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Great post, op.

Without humble beginnings there will never be a proper frame of reference for epic or high level content. When everyone and everything is epic and awesome from level 1, there will never be room for growth.

The constant barrage of "amazing" in Baldurs Gate 3 has made me completely numb to the point where nothing feels awesome or impressive anymore. It takes courage and skill to show restraint and write small and mundane things. I think Larian as a developer lacks that ability. Ultimately it will mean that while BG3 will be a high quality game, the doors to the RPG Hall of Fame will remain closed.

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Originally Posted by Endlessdescent
I see a lot in this thread people essentially asking, "if there is something wrong with this game, why is it still fun/why are we still playing it?" etc.

That's because despite the problems, BG3 is still a fun game. The poor writing is subjective, the fact remains it is an entertaining fantasy RPG. Despite acusations that I see things through rose tinted glasses, I enjoy many newer rpgs like this. Pillars of Eternity 1&2, DOS 1&2, Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous are all great, fun games.
Exactly. This is not a debate about whether BG3 in its current form is fun to play for many people, because of course it is. Just like hundreds of other games on Steam, GOG, and EGS being enjoyed by millions of gamers. The issue is whether the game feels like a Baldur's Gate game, set in the Forgotten Realms, and using D&D 5e mechanics? The issue of the game being "fun" to play has nothing to do with this and is an entirely separate issue. And I think it is very telling that generally, the people who are very favorable towards BG3 are those who don't really care that much about the game's ancestry and roots as a Baldur's Gate/FR game, because things like the game supposedly being part of the Baldur's Gate videogame franchise or a game set in the Forgotten Realms setting with all it's rich lore collected over decades are not at all relevant to them. So, your excellent OP is going to resonate only with those of us who care about this game actually being a **Baldur's Gate** game, and not just another RPG made by Larian that happens to be called BG3.

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Originally Posted by lucad83
When the message one is trying to convey is being (widely) misinterpreted, blaming the receiver is generally a bad idea.
That is exactly it ... its not widely. laugh
There was not even hundert people ... and even if there would, its like how much ... 0,000001% ?


Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by lucad83
When the message one is trying to convey is being (widely) misinterpreted, blaming the receiver is generally a bad idea.
That is exactly it ... its not widely. laugh
There was not even hundert people ... and even if there would, its like how much ... 0,000001% ?

No one will ever know how many people won't buy the game because "it does not feel like a BG game" (or a DnD game, or whatever you want).

But I saw a lot of people complaining on other forums I'm active on, especially at the beginning. Is that more or less than 0,000001% of players that will buy it ?
How could we know ?

This debate won't change anything but the title of this thread is still something many people agree with... even if they like the game for other reasons (people like me, in exemple).
I like BG3 a lot but I definitely think it was doable to create the same game with a better DnD/BG vibe. It's not because I like BG3 a lot that I'm convinced by "Larian's vision" or by a lot of core design choices they made.

But how could you understand ? You never played BG1 and 2 laugh (smile because you love them)

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
There was not even hundert people ... and even if there would, its like how much ... 0,000001% ?

Pulling numbers right out of our ass, aren't we?

Also completely missing the point (which is BG3 not being a Baldur's Gate game, not BG3 being a bad game).

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
That is exactly it ... its not widely. laugh
There was not even hundert people ... and even if there would, its like how much ... 0,000001% ?

Numbers aside it shows some bias that you're weighing the number of people who voiced their disappointment against the entire user base. This means that you assume that every single person who downloaded the game and did not express any opinion is automatically on board with you.
Bear in mind we're not arguing whether people enjoyed the game, the question here is whether we think it is as faithful a D&D translation as we feel we were promised.

I could do the same to you: in this whole thread you've been the only person to say that Larian communicated effectively and it's us fools who failed to understand their vision. How much is that? Since it's just you and not a hundred people I will take your estimate and add a couple of zeros: 0,00000001%.

Does it feel right? It's just as legitimate as your own math.

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I agree. Both the story and the larger than life companions seems to be turned up to eleven from the get go. The Michael Bay parallel seems fitting in this case.
Not saying this game can't enjoyable. But it does not feel like DnD.

Last edited by Peranor; 17/11/21 04:49 PM.
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1. The game feels like DnD. I have no idea what some of you are talking about. Every time a character casts magic missile, I think to myself, this sure does feel like DnD.

The D20 is being rolled right in front of my face. Feels like DnD. There are Mind Flayers and character classes and races straight out of Dungeons and Dragons. Yep, feels like DnD.

Doesn't feel like 2nd edition DnD. Because it's not.

*

2. I feel like some of the arguments boil down to: it's too exciting!

I prefer my excitement to come at later levels, thank you very much. Bah humbug.

*

3. Regarding timed quests: there sort of is one right now. If you contact Nere telepathically, then from that point on, you're under the clock.
If you long rest more than once after initially contacting Nere, he dies from the poison gas. I'm okay with things like this, and I suspect there'll be more like this upon full release.

*

4. I would also like to see a day/night addition to the game. However, the absence of a day/night schedule doesn't mean the writing is bad.

Last edited by JandK; 17/11/21 05:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
No one will ever know how many people won't buy the game because "it does not feel like a BG game" (or a DnD game, or whatever you want).
Irellevant ...
The premise was that this game was advertised as something else than what was delivered in the end ... if someone as you says "won't buy the game becasuse it does not feel like a BG (or a DnD, or whatever you want) game" ... those people were obviously not fooled by this "evil cheating advertising" ...
And therefore (quite logicaly i would say) cannot be part of amount of people who was. wink

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
But I saw a lot of people complaining on other forums I'm active on, especially at the beginning.
Yeah, that might be true ...
But once again, since there is no way to tell how many of them is just same people also active on other forums, just as you do ... its also irellevant. :-/
Unless you actualy found a forum where litteraly ten thousand different people were complaining about it, and even then you would only move by two decimal places closer to 1% while still being DEEEP below. :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
This debate won't change anything but the title of this thread is still something many people agree with...
That is the thing ... where did you get "many" ?
I mean i totally understand that when your surrounding agree often, person totally can get the expression that presented opinion is accepted by the general public ...

Im just pointing out that this is just ilusion caused by the fact that your test group is:
A) Too small to base any conclusions on it
B) Interested in the topic and therefore not objective

Its just the same ilusion you get if you talk about politics with your friends ...
You asked them all and nobody voted for "Candidate A" (to keep it as unspecific as possible) ... therefore you can easily get to conclusion that he can never win the votes ...
Then later, when the votes are counted ... you find out that "Candidate A" have won with 80% votes.
Why is that?
Bcs your test group was not wide enough to be relevant ... if you are oriented to "Candidate B" (or vice versa) you with high probability will be talking with same oriented people, and therefore some "Candidate A" oriented person will be so rare in your surrounding you can easily get to conclusion that they dont even exist. wink

This topic is same story.
Most people who come here, come here just to add +1 to complaining ... you can see that by the fact that not even everyone curently active on this forum expressed themselves. wink
Therefore our group is too dedicated for our "Candidate A" (larian sucks, we want DnD) so we can easily get to conclusion that "Candidate B" (larian rocks, we want it as it is) dont even exists, or is so small to being irellevant. smile
But that is just bcs we ignore all those millions of people who are not curently here to complain. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
You never played BG1 and 2 laugh (smile because you love them)
Im aware, i was there. smile
Not sure why you are telling me tho. O_o

That is why i never (if you check this topic, you will see) expressed myself about how this game feels compared to them ...
Only to general topics i had opinion to ... and i dont think that there was any condition telling us that those who didnt play previous games cant understand rules of statistics, or telling them to others here. :P

Originally Posted by DiDiDi
Also completely missing the point (which is BG3 not being a Baldur's Gate game, not BG3 being a bad game).
On the contrary my dear friend ...
Im aware of this point, i just pointing out that this is matter of personal feeling that is distorted (among other aspects) mainly by thing called "selective memory" ... feel free to google it. wink

Shorter version:
No matter how this game would look, work, or sell ... there will allways be someone who will be sure that its not BG or DnD enough ... the only way to prevent this is to create remaster instead of sequel. wink

Originally Posted by lucad83
This means that you assume that every single person who downloaded the game and did not express any opinion is automatically on board with you.
Not sure what means "being on board with me" ... also kinda doubt that you even know, but that is different topic ...
But yes, i asume that every single person that buyed a product that litteraly say "if you didnt like product you just buyed, please come to this web and complain" ... and dont come to this web and complain ...
EIther dont want to complain since they are satisfied, or isnt bothered enough by things they dislike to complain.

One ancient quote says: Silence means consent. wink

Originally Posted by lucad83
Bear in mind we're not arguing whether people enjoyed the game, the question here is whether we think it is as faithful a D&D translation as we feel we were promised.
I dared to mark most important part in this statement.

Now my reaction to this statement:
I understand YOUR point ... not sure about the others here to be honest ... but i even agree with you ...

But bear in mnd that im not arguing here whether the game is faithful as a D&D translation ...
Im just pointing out for some people that they actualy do compare their own expectations (just as you said) with final product, and blame developers for not meeting them ...
Wich would be udnerstandable and totally fine as long as people will say things like "i wanted" or "i expected" or "i would like" or w/e simmilar ... but not for people claiming "i was promised" or "it was advertised" bcs he wasnt, and it wasnt. wink
Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by lucad83
I could do the same to you: in this whole thread you've been the only person to say that Larian communicated effectively and it's us fools who failed to understand their vision. How much is that? Since it's just you and not a hundred people I will take your estimate and add a couple of zeros: 0,00000001%.

Does it feel right? It's just as legitimate as your own math.
I would say its not "as legitimate" since you are limiting both input (just people who said exactly the same as i did) and source of your check group (this topic only) ...
But if that pleases you, with this obviously purposefull restrictions you would be right. smile

But as soon as you start searching in other topics you can find other people claiming something quite simmilar to me ... this is one example of them:
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from last month
We want to have that Dungeons & Dragons feeling, not slavishly following every single one rule, but really getting the feeling of playing this tabletop experience but everything is being done for me, this dungeon master is doing everything automatically, I'm just having a good time.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from October 2020
BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from October 2020
So what you can expect in BG3 is us giving you more tools to fool around with based on fifth edition rules and on some of the things that make the fifth edition so cool and accessible.

Originally Posted by Swen Vincke - Source from November 2020
Baldur’s Gate was the definitive D&D game of it’s generation, and that’s what we’re trying to create, but we’re also trying to make a good video game first and foremost, rather than a strict D&D adaptation.

To put it in D&D terms, we’re your dungeon master and this is our campaign that we’re running, so there will be our own flavour and house rules. We’re bringing you one particular visualisation of this world, but that doesn't mean that there cannot be others.

I think the messaging have been pretty consistent.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 17/11/21 06:01 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
No one will ever know how many people won't buy the game because "it does not feel like a BG game" (or a DnD game, or whatever you want).
Irellevant ...
The premise was that this game was advertised as something else than what was delivered in the end ... if someone as you says "won't buy the game becasuse it does not feel like a BG (or a DnD, or whatever you want) game" ... those people were obviously not fooled by this "evil cheating advertising" ...
And therefore (quite logicaly i would say) cannot be part of amount of people who was. wink

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
But I saw a lot of people complaining on other forums I'm active on, especially at the beginning.
Yeah, that might be true ...
But once again, since there is no way to tell how many of them is just same people also active on other forums, just as you do ... its also irellevant. :-/
Unless you actualy found a forum where litteraly ten thousand different people were complaining about it, and even then you would only move by two decimal places closer to 1% while still being DEEEP below. :-/

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
This debate won't change anything but the title of this thread is still something many people agree with...
That is the thing ... where did you get "many" ?
I mean i totally understand that when your surrounding agree often, person totally can get the expression that presented opinion is accepted by the general public ...

Im just pointing out that this is just ilusion caused by the fact that your test group is:
A) Too small to base any conclusions on it
B) Interested in the topic and therefore not objective

Its just the same ilusion you get if you talk about politics with your friends ...
You asked them all and nobody voted for "Candidate A" (to keep it as unspecific as possible) ... therefore you can easily get to conclusion that he can never win the votes ...
Then later, when the votes are counted ... you find out that "Candidate A" have won with 80% votes.
Why is that?
Bcs your test group was not wide enough to be relevant ... if you are oriented to "Candidate B" (or vice versa) you with high probability will be talking with same oriented people, and therefore some "Candidate A" oriented person will be so rare in your surrounding you can easily get to conclusion that they dont even exist. wink

This topic is same story.
Most people who come here, come here just to add +1 to complaining ... you can see that by the fact that not even everyone curently active on this forum expressed themselves. wink
Therefore our group is too dedicated for our "Candidate A" (larian sucks, we want DnD) so we can easily get to conclusion that "Candidate B" (larian rocks, we want it as it is) dont even exists, or is so small to being irellevant. smile
But that is just bcs we ignore all those millions of people who are not curently here to complain. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
You never played BG1 and 2 laugh (smile because you love them)
Im aware, i was there. smile
Not sure why you are telling me tho. O_o

That is why i never (if you check this topic, you will see) expressed myself about how this game feels compared to them ...
Only to general topics i had opinion to ... and i dont think that there was any condition telling us that those who didnt play previous games cant understand rules of statistics, or telling them to others here. :P

Back in June 2019 (if I'm not wrong) when this game has been announced it was only advertised as "BG3".
Then it was advertised as a DnD video game. And guess what ? The only DnD video games that video games players could think of were the old BG games (and similar).

People had expectations and talked about BG3 before you came here in october when the early access begin.

And even after the beginning I'm sorry... But even a non-DnD player like me could understand that it doesn't mechanically look or feel like a DnD game, a DnD low level campaign or an old BG game at all.
It was already awesome for the choices and what they call "permutations", for the races and classes tags and so on... but in exemples the rules implementation were terrible and it's obvious that BG3 does not have any references to the old games (visually, mechanicaly and so on...)

Just as your conclusions, your numbers or your intepretation of what "many" means, your exemples are irrelevant too but it doesn't matter at all. We don't have to play with words (not sure if it's an understandable expression in EN)
I saw here, on youtube and on other forums a lot of players claiming that this game does not look like a BG game for various reasons - way more than those claiming that it looks like a BG game.

After 1+ year, such thread still have 5 pages in 36 hours. This mean that this is still something people have in mind even if you disagree or just don't understand what it means.
You're not giving your opinion but you're giving an opinion on other's opinion. Your first answer was once again the stupid "it looks like nostalgia" argument. Which has always been irrelevant. Smile smile smile.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 17/11/21 08:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
...on youtube and on other forums a lot of players claiming that this game does not look like a BG game...

No, there's not. There's not a lot of comments about how this game doesn't look like a BG game.

There are, however, a lot of comments saying how awesome the game looks, and how people can't wait for it to be fully released, and speculation about mysteries in the game, and character class build advice, and people talking about equipment, and debates about which companion is the best, and so on and so on.

At some point, it just feels like there's a handful of people piling on hate. I end up wondering if any of these folks work for competing companies, lol.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
...on youtube and on other forums a lot of players claiming that this game does not look like a BG game...

No, there's not. There's not a lot of comments about how this game doesn't look like a BG game.

There are, however, a lot of comments saying how awesome the game looks, and how people can't wait for it to be fully released, and speculation about mysteries in the game, and character class build advice, and people talking about equipment, and debates about which companion is the best, and so on and so on.

At some point, it just feels like there's a handful of people piling on hate. I end up wondering if any of these folks work for competing companies, lol.

You obviously don't remember the "DoS3" thing but you know what ? If you say so, let's say you're right wink

Last edited by Maximuuus; 17/11/21 08:09 PM.
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At the end of the day Larian don't pay any heed to these forums. It is simply a place where we can say what we feel is the good, the bad and the ugly.

The good,

The combat and classes are decent D&D adaptations.

The Bad,

The world is DOS

The Ugly,

The world is DOS

As simply as it gets. lols laugh

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Originally Posted by JandK
1. The game feels like DnD. I have no idea what some of you are talking about. Every time a character casts magic missile, I think to myself, this sure does feel like DnD.

The D20 is being rolled right in front of my face. Feels like DnD. There are Mind Flayers and character classes and races straight out of Dungeons and Dragons. Yep, feels like DnD.

Doesn't feel like 2nd edition DnD. Because it's not.

*

2. I feel like some of the arguments boil down to: it's too exciting!

I prefer my excitement to come at later levels, thank you very much. Bah humbug.


1. Nobody is asking for 2nd Edition, don't be facetious. Sure, it feels like D&D; a Larian rendition of D&D liberally smothered with their idiosyncratic, 'hilarious' style and Superhero companions. It bears little resemblance to a BG game, which is the point many people are making. It is a marked departure from the original games.

2. That's your own perception of the feedback provided and is absolutely not the intention. There is little palpable sense of achievement when you level up constantly and are inundated in magical (and non magical) loot from the very beginning. In essence, it gets boring very quickly and starts to feel like a MMORPG.

People aren't piling on hate, they're giving valid feedback...consider that perhaps it is because they care?

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