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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Let's just take a step back.

BG1. Plot point = You're a demigod, child of murder. Embrace it of resist. Your choice. Fight others with said heritage.
BG2. Plot point = You're a demigod, child of murder. Others want to steal it. Fight for your life or die. Claim your father's heritage and become a god or reject it. Fight others with said heritage. Your choice.
BG3. Plot point = You're infected by a godlike mind flayer parasite that will likely turn you into a god. Others want to claim the power for themselves. You have a choice. Resist or claim your new godlike powers. Fight others with said heritage.
Except...there are several already legendary characters who have the same condition, except they are sown into the story and you are just a random unknown dude in comparison.

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Sorry. Not sure where you're going with that. How is that so much different from the originals? In the first two, it was you and Imoen. So there was still more than just you. In this game, it is you and five others. It's still relatively the same premise.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
and you are just a random unknown dude in comparison.
That is the beauty in Custom character ...
They can be anything you want them to be ... starting with random unknown dude, over secret son of a King, and ending by demigod personification with memory loss, or just wanting vacation ... the only limit is your imagination. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 26/11/21 02:47 PM.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
The reason why BG 1 and 2 simple plots worked was because you could easily be immersed and there was a strong sense of worldbuilding and verossimilitude supporting it, along with overall better writing.

When you remove that for BG3 and you reuse the same basic plot, it feels dull.

Plus, altering the biology of tadpoles and vampire spawns with the excuse of "god power" is an extremely cheap plot device (again, lack of verossimilitude). Throw some Absolute cult cliche, some cartoonish Rag and Devil and the story only goes downhill.

And I am not even accounting for the 20 years evolution in video-game writing or the difference in budget.

Originally Posted by Wormerine
I think they upped their game - I feel there was much more thought and care put into BG3 story, characters and writing then D:OS1&2 combined. It is a different studio, making a different game with different priorities. I suspect it is less about talented writers but how much imput they have - do they get to dictate content, world structure or do they have to tie up loose ends after other teams do their work.

Technologically, yes, but, narratively, no. BG3 is a little more serious than DOS2 in tone, but the writing is not that different. In many cases, I liked DOS 2 companions backstory better (or maybe they were more original at that time). Wyll and Astarion backstory are a variation of Lohse's and Astarion shares the same arrogance as Red Prince.

These characters literally have nothing in common.
On this logic, you might as well try to match any character in the games to another.

Oh...they have. It is disguised (like BG3/DOS2 intros) but it is there.

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Companions - extensive backstories and woven into the plot. 5000000000 lines of spoken dialogue.
Tav - Cloned in a mindflayer tank as "level 1 - insert class".

Well they did give Tav 2 lines in the polt.

"this looks like a good place to make (warp) camp"
"Something something something absolute.....curious"

Hahahahaha!! The player character is basically an extra in a B movie.

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Companions - extensive backstories and woven into the plot. 5000000000 lines of spoken dialogue.
Tav - Cloned in a mindflayer tank as "level 1 - insert class".

Well they did give Tav 2 lines in the polt.

"this looks like a good place to make (warp) camp"
"Something something something absolute.....curious"

Hahahahaha!! The player character is basically an extra in a B movie.

Honestly, I personally hope they don't give Tav too much spoken dialogue. I think in a case like this, having the dialogue of the main character be unvoiced is probably for the best.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by 1varangian
and you are just a random unknown dude in comparison.
That is the beauty in Custom character ...
They can be anything you want them to be ... starting with random unknown dude, over secret son of a King, and ending by demigod personification with memory loss, or just wanting vacation ... the only limit is your imagination. wink

As someone who LOVES to give their crpg characters intricate backstories and complex internal lives that grow and develop as the game progresses, I will say that the game could do more to make players feel like their backstories have some degree of grounding in the world (also there's the fact that new players really don't get any insight into the workings of the world at large, which makes coming up with backstories that fit the world harder). It's really as simple as having characters ask about your background a bit more, maybe give us a couple more opportunities to say what we are and aren't familiar with. Little things like that would go a surprisingly long way towards helping us connect with our character a bit more, make it feel like we can bring some of what's in our heads out into the game world. And honestly I still maintain that if the game worldbuilt better, that would actually help as well, since it would make it easier for us to really conceptualize where our character could fit into the wider world.

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Companions - extensive backstories and woven into the plot. 5000000000 lines of spoken dialogue.
Tav - Cloned in a mindflayer tank as "level 1 - insert class".

Well they did give Tav 2 lines in the polt.

"this looks like a good place to make (warp) camp"
"Something something something absolute.....curious"

Hahahahaha!! The player character is basically an extra in a B movie.

Actually, I agree here. They should not be non-standard in the form of spoken lines IF it is to be so rarely.
They should either sound most of the dialogue lines or not at all.
I don't know about the others, but it didn't irritate me so much, but surprised me for lack of a better word.

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I really liked that the main character was voice acted until I created an evil character and found that none of the voices match at all. I never wanted my main character to not have a voice so much until I did this. The voice so did not match my evil drow sorcerer that it really ruined a lot of the evil playthrough for me whenever he spoke.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I really liked that the main character was voice acted until I created an evil character and found that none of the voices match at all. I never wanted my main character to not have a voice so much until I did this. The voice so did not match my evil drow sorcerer that it really ruined a lot of the evil playthrough for me whenever he spoke.

There are still a few currently unavailable voices in the files, so who knows, maybe you will find something for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
As someone who LOVES to give their crpg characters intricate backstories and complex internal lives that grow and develop as the game progresses, I will say that the game could do more to make players feel like their backstories have some degree of grounding in the world (also there's the fact that new players really don't get any insight into the workings of the world at large, which makes coming up with backstories that fit the world harder). It's really as simple as having characters ask about your background a bit more, maybe give us a couple more opportunities to say what we are and aren't familiar with. Little things like that would go a surprisingly long way towards helping us connect with our character a bit more, make it feel like we can bring some of what's in our heads out into the game world. And honestly I still maintain that if the game worldbuilt better, that would actually help as well, since it would make it easier for us to really conceptualize where our character could fit into the wider world.
I kinda understand where this came from ...
But it seems impossible to me. :-/

You would need to implement litteraly any and every story, so your companions can react on that.

Unless you mean it as give option to say "never heard about it, tell me more" or "yes, im familiar with this concept" for everything our companions wish to tell us about. laugh
That dont seem so hard ...
I mean when i played my Gith i would certainly appreciate not being so clueless moron who asks even what is Creche. -_-

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I really liked that the main character was voice acted until I created an evil character and found that none of the voices match at all. I never wanted my main character to not have a voice so much until I did this. The voice so did not match my evil drow sorcerer that it really ruined a lot of the evil playthrough for me whenever he spoke.
That is common prolbem with voiced characters ...
There will ALLWAYS be somoene who will feel like "my character would never ever say that" :-/


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
As someone who LOVES to give their crpg characters intricate backstories and complex internal lives that grow and develop as the game progresses, I will say that the game could do more to make players feel like their backstories have some degree of grounding in the world (also there's the fact that new players really don't get any insight into the workings of the world at large, which makes coming up with backstories that fit the world harder). It's really as simple as having characters ask about your background a bit more, maybe give us a couple more opportunities to say what we are and aren't familiar with. Little things like that would go a surprisingly long way towards helping us connect with our character a bit more, make it feel like we can bring some of what's in our heads out into the game world. And honestly I still maintain that if the game worldbuilt better, that would actually help as well, since it would make it easier for us to really conceptualize where our character could fit into the wider world.
I kinda understand where this came from ...
But it seems impossible to me. :-/

You would need to implement litteraly any and every story, so your companions can react on that.

Unless you mean it as give option to say "never heard about it, tell me more" or "yes, im familiar with this concept" for everything our companions wish to tell us about. laugh
That dont seem so hard ...
I mean when i played my Gith i would certainly appreciate not being so clueless moron who asks even what is Creche. -_-

Yeah, I mostly mean just giving us the option to know about stuff. Maybe even to be able to explain certain things to our companions if it would make sense for your character. Like when I had the opportunity to tell Lae'zel that I'd heard of gith before, for instance. Being able to say to Gale, "I've been to Waterdeep and thought it was beautiful/a dump, etc. More moments like that. Another example is, when you interact with the Zentarim, maybe being able to say that you've heard of them before, or you've had dealings with another branch or something. Just sprinkling little opportunities for your character to voice their experiences and flesh their own backstory out. They obviously can't provide for every idea a player could create, but something is better than nothing. Plus not every player is going to have a fully fleshed out backstory in their heads, and little prompts like that will give them something to latch onto.

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Yeah i would like that. smile
You should probably send this last message to Larian through official feedback, this will get easily lost on paige 15 in topic that will soon be once again full of complaining about how things was better in the past. laugh


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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Hahahahaha!! The player character is basically an extra in a B movie.
A plot twist: It is WE who are the NPC.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sorry. Not sure where you're going with that. How is that so much different from the originals? In the first two, it was you and Imoen. So there was still more than just you. In this game, it is you and five others. It's still relatively the same premise.
It means that while the plot has similarities, the storytelling is completely different.

BG1&2 are about you. The other bhaalspawn being your sister is also about you. You have a supporting cast of companions.

BG3 is about Larian's NPC's first and foremost and about you second. They are not a supporting cast. It's an oversized ensemble cast where every one of them is legendary and awesome already at level 1. And when everyone is, no one is. And if you like to envision your own level 1 PC as an actual rookie, it hardly makes sense with your companions being so legendary already.

Dragon Age games are also about the player and the companions are always the supporting cast. The storytelling has more impact that way. That's why BG3 is leaving me cold so far. I hope they can somehow improve their storytelling and poke some emotional response out of the player. But it's much more difficult when the focus is on NPC's instead of you.

Last edited by 1varangian; 27/11/21 12:48 PM.
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Ah. Ok. Makes sense.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
BG3 is about Larian's NPC's first and foremost and about you second. They are not a supporting cast. It's an oversized ensemble cast where every one of them is legendary and awesome already at level 1.

I don't see them changing in this regard, it's just part of their DNA.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sorry. Not sure where you're going with that. How is that so much different from the originals? In the first two, it was you and Imoen. So there was still more than just you. In this game, it is you and five others. It's still relatively the same premise.
BG3 is about Larian's NPC's first and foremost and about you second. They are not a supporting cast. It's an oversized ensemble cast where every one of them is legendary and awesome already at level 1. And when everyone is, no one is. And if you like to envision your own level 1 PC as an actual rookie, it hardly makes sense with your companions being so legendary already.

It can work with a single awesome sidekick. In Andromeda, Dylan Hunt was your typical hero but you had one side character, Trance, who could basically manipulate timelines. This did work because you only found out far into the story (before she was just depicted as extremely "lucky") and it was only one character.

But yes, the other characters necessarily had to step back compared to her.

The problem in BG3 is that the origin characters are supposed to be played by you, so they have to be awesome. But of course, if there are so many of them, it gets too much.

Maybe a solution would be to just have ~3 origin side characters and most others "normal" characters. More is not always better or can be added by expansions.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
You guys make me never want to play DOS. Sometimes I consider it, but then I read something like this.

Sigh.

Honestly, it's still a game you should play. If only because it'd give you a window into understanding why there's immense pushback in seeing anything remotely similar to DOS2 in BG3. Many fail to understand that the whole 'BG3 = DOS3' criticism isn't mean to disparage the DOS games, it's a warning to Larian that they shouldn't expect to blindly take aspects of their own series and insert it into a DnD-focused world and engine and expect it to go over well. Especially since some of the things that obviously did make it over are also the most harshly criticized parts of DOS to begin with (the toilet chain system for instance, the idea of the origin system, and the fears that we'll end up with all of our inactive party members dead at the end of act 1 like what happened in DOS2, though it looks more and more like Larian has reversed course on the latter since none of the datamining is showing any hint that it is even on the table anymore).

Beyond that, it's still a great game for what it is, even if the balancing becomes questionable about halfway into the game.

I actually like the DOS2 party members. My issue with them is that there's literally no party banter between them at all (you will not see party members talking to each other at all, they only really talk to the designated player character. They will only comment as a group and tell you what they would personally do before you make a major choice). Because of their overall lack of interaction between each other, it's a contributing factor as to why they mostly come off as selfish murderhobos as the game goes on, as they don't really get much opportunity to showcase any sort of depth.

BG3 isn't quite that much better yet, but my standards in this department are also admittedly very high, almost unrealistically so, with how lively WotR's cast of party members are. At face value, WotR's characters aren't that much different from Larian's characters, the primary difference is their party banter gives them numerous opportunities to show true depth. It's probably the only game I've ever played where one can make a convincing argument that the entire cast of party members should be judged as a complete package, instead of on an individual level.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 27/11/21 07:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I actually like the DOS2 party members. My issue with them is that there's literally no party banter between them at all (you will not see party members talking to each other at all, they only really talk to the designated player character. They will only comment as a group and tell you what they would personally do before you make a major choice). BG3 isn't quite that much better yet, but my standards in this department are also admittedly very high, almost unrealistically so, with how lively WotR's cast of party members are.

This...this right here, is one of my biggest hangups. I love party banter and convos. I desperately want the BG3 characters to interact more and share their opinions together as a party, not just one v one with the MC. Some scenes make sense as one v one but some should definitely be party interaction. One thing that makes D&D what it is has to do with party members getting closer, becoming friends as one cohesive unit.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You guys make me never want to play DOS. Sometimes I consider it, but then I read something like this.

Sigh.

Honestly, it's still a game you should play. If only because it'd give you a window into understanding why there's immense pushback in seeing anything remotely similar to DOS2 in BG3. Many fail to understand that the whole 'BG3 = DOS3' criticism isn't mean to disparage the DOS games, it's a warning to Larian that they shouldn't expect to blindly take aspects of their own series and insert it into a DnD-focused world and engine and expect it to go over well. Especially since some of the things that obviously did make it over are also the most harshly criticized parts of DOS to begin with (the toilet chain system for instance, the idea of the origin system, and the fears that we'll end up with all of our inactive party members dead at the end of act 1 like what happened in DOS2, though it looks more and more like Larian has reversed course on the latter since none of the datamining is showing any hint that it is even on the table anymore).

Beyond that, it's still a great game for what it is, even if the balancing becomes questionable about halfway into the game.

I actually like the DOS2 party members. My issue with them is that there's literally no party banter between them at all (you will not see party members talking to each other at all, they only really talk to the designated player character. They will only comment as a group and tell you what they would personally do before you make a major choice). Because of their overall lack of interaction between each other, it's a contributing factor as to why they mostly come off as selfish murderhobos as the game goes on, as they don't really get much opportunity to showcase any sort of depth.

BG3 isn't quite that much better yet, but my standards in this department are also admittedly very high, almost unrealistically so, with how lively WotR's cast of party members are. At face value, WotR's characters aren't that much different from Larian's characters, the primary difference is their party banter gives them numerous opportunities to show true depth. It's probably the only game I've ever played where one can make a convincing argument that the entire cast of party members should be judged as a complete package, instead of on an individual level.


I'm not sure there is such a big difference.
While exploring, companions in BG3 talk to each other very often, unlike WotR.
It's hard for me to consider saying literally one sentence as a conversation, as is the case in WotR, especially since many of these "conversations" are written so that they could fit more than one person.
What WotR does better is that the companions join the conversation. Only here are two things to consider.
First of all, considering the whole game is a bit unfair.
We only have less than 1/3 of the game.
Secondly, full voice acting is quite expensive so of course there will also be a more limited number of combinations.
It would be nice if companions joined conversations more often (it's much better than it was at the beginning of EA), but you shouldn't have unrealistic expectations.

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