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A recent post here and a not so recent post on reddit both pointed out a potential plot hole: The most common way of "curing" ceremorphosis is to just kill the host and then heal/resurrect them after the tadpole leaves. Given the various times we see tadpoles emerge from fallen true souls and the various ways the game gives us of bringing dead party members back to life, what is the point of Act 1?

To confirm the issue. I loaded up a save, had Astarion strike me down using a Wyvern poisoned blade (Hey, I promised Nettie). No tadpole emerged nor would the game allow the party to sleep or partial rest while the player controlled custom character was dead. I tried again, this time I had Astarion kill Shadowheart at camp after asking her to "stay at camp" so that she wasn't a member of the active party. That outcome was ... unexpected to say the least. Especially the conversation that happened after I revived her... But still, no tadpole emerged.

I don't intend to rehash the arguments in the above threads, but instead offer a budget friendly suggestion on how to possibly address/fix the hole: I suggest dropping a book on Halsin's desk that explains the limits of resurrection in regards to ceremorphosis.

"I tried resurrecting the drow to no avail. Killing and resurrecting an infected creature is the most common method of tadpole extraction, however it appeared the drow had already passed the point of no return.

Nettie was asking about the point of no return. I summarized what I know, though I admit much is beyond me. Illithids are aberrations which have no place in the Material Plane. As a result, there is a point during the metamorphosis where the soul is no longer able to return to the body, at least not until the metamorphosis is complete. Typically this occurs within 24 hours of infection.

The body can still be healed. Even spells like Revivify can work as they mend the body while the flesh is still warm and the soul still clings to it. But should the soul fully depart after the point of no return, death can not be reversed. There may still be hope however. There is something unusual about these tadpoles. There may be an arcane or non-conventional way of removing them. I need to investigate further."


Q2) Why is Revivify Special

If you read the player handbook, it is the only spell that can bring someone back from death that doesn't mention the soul or say anything about "if the soul is able/free/at liberty/etc... to return". I suspect this is because it must be cast within 1 min of dying. Implying the soul is still present and hasn't yet departed, so no permission or freedom checks are necessary. Look for yourself:

Revivify
Raise Dead
Clone
Resurrection
True Resurrection
Reincarnate

Q2) Why doesn't the tadpole leave the body when party members die?

Simply put, it isn't stupid. It knows what we know and thus that it will get squashed. So it wont leave the body until it must.

Q3) Why can't someone just bash in the head and kill it anyway. It can't hide from a hammer....

Yes, head smash would work, but likely there would be no bringing the companion back afterwards. Revivify requires a functional body.

Q4) What about Gale?

I would change his True Resurrection scroll to a simple Revivify scroll to make a stronger distinction in what works and doesn't work. However, it could be argued if Revivify works on someone (which it does), then it has been less than 1 min, thus the soul has not departed. Therefore, any of the Raise Dead type spells would suffice if done in a timely manner on a fully intact body. So technically, no change is needed, but I would prefer consistency. But that might just be me.

Yes, I can think of far more elaborate solutions and ways to present this twist, but dropping a book on a desk and potentially changing a scroll are pretty simple and low budget changes. I could see spells like WISH getting the job done, but I'm not concerned about the party easily gaining access to that spell.... until it probably doesn't matter anymore.

Last edited by Dheuster; 03/12/21 03:26 AM.
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People around here realy should try using search from time to time. -_-


Short coment on my English. smile

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While i have issues with the forum search myself, some topics are easy to find...this is certainly one of them. I have no problem with double or triple postings at times since the longer threads are the more irrelevant stuff gets in there ( i remember having ruined at least one of ragnaroks myself :P).

Back to the topic:

From my point of view not letting the chars die is the most easy way to plug this hole. PC death is really unecessary. We got saved from death when falling out of the ship, so why not keeping it that way? When we fall off-screen we end up dead in camp anyway so why not just get ported to camp with 1 HP when we fail our final
death saving throw? That way the question of the tadpole leaving does not even come up.

Starting gales storyline sooner, maybe after the second failed saving throw, would be better anyway imo. I have played through Act 1 more than once without him dying so the story never even started.

Maybe that brings other issues to the table but at least it does not kill the story.

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Are we sure it's a hole? Perhaps more is to be revealed in later acts?

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
People around here realy should try using search from time to time. -_-

The advanced search returned 3 previous threads with "ceremorphosis" in the topic. The first was a debate on if the story made sense, but didn't mention solutions. The second was about how it might limit race selection to humanoids but wasn't about plot holes. The most recent is actually linked to in my first sentence. I commented in that post "In regards to how I would handle it... I will make my own post as I don't want to hi-jack yours." That post was the inspiration for this one, or I should say, my quest to find a solution. Is there a rule against posting on the same subject here? Last I checked, this isn't stack exchange. If anything, it brings more attention to the issue. smile

So here I wanted to suggest a budget friendly solution and explain why I think it is the best.

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
From my point of view not letting the chars die is the most easy way to plug this hole. PC death is really unnecessary...

This would also be my preference. After all, BG1/2 didn't let companions die on normal difficulty. But dealing with Gale is a pain in that case. It can be done (I even suggested 2 ways of doing it in my original post that I edited heavily), but it bulls down to making changes that would require many more development hours and resources than pasting some text into an existing book. So I agree with you, but I am favoring low budget fixes as I feel those are more likely to be entertained.

Originally Posted by Ranxerox
Are we sure it's a hole? Perhaps more is to be revealed in later acts?

I am not dismissing that possibility. And I like debates. But as pointed out earlier in this response, there are already threads where the question is being or has been debated. I prefer to focus on solutions with the assumption that it is a hole. The way I see it, if it's a hole, Larian might find a thread dedicated to possible fixes useful. And if it isn't a hole, I'm sure Larian will just ignore the thread anyway. smile

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Originally Posted by Dheuster
So here I wanted to suggest a budget friendly solution and explain why I think it is the best.
Personaly i believe that the best solution here is not mention it at all ...

Yes, the tadpole have plot armor ...
The only reason your grop is holding together is that they all need each other, remove that and they will send you to hell faster than Gale did in his campfire scene. :-/

Therefore the only logical way to use this "method" would be either as instant game over (or lone wolf) conversation trap ... wich would be diabolical, but oddly satisfying.

If you talk about it, no matter what reasons you create there will allway be ome nitpicking nerd, who will claim that "this is not corect" ...
If you dont, there is at least small chance that some people will not even think about it as option ...

To me honestly it makes sence, no matter how "respected" Halsin is among his own people, he is still a stranger to you, aswell as litteraly anyone else you meet during first act ... so if you would thrust anyone to "purposely kill you and promis he will bring you back afterwards" ... it just dont feels right to me, sory. :-/

The fact that you (or any of your companions) can die during the fight (where its not really matter of choice, but consequences) and it dont help you with your brainbug problem at all, while when they (and any other tadpoled character) is PERMA killed, they allways get out ... shows in subtle way that this option is not aplicable for you ... wich should be enough in my honest opinion.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 04/12/21 08:11 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Quote
The fact that you (or any of your companions) can die during the fight (where its not really matter of choice, but consequences) and it dont help you with your brainbug problem at all, while when they (and any other tadpoled character) is PERMA killed, they allways get out ... shows in subtle way that this option is not aplicable for you ... wich should be enough in my honest opinion.


As far as i know you can only kill one of your companions permanently and even then i did not see the tadpole emerge. Drive a stake through Astarion in the camp and look. You cannot revive him with Whithers nor the Revivify scroll.

If you ask me this plothole is a simple oversight. As i mentioned above and also in the other thread, not letting the chars die would be the best option. In addition to that i also think that should not be too hard to implement.

Personally i only wondered once on my secons playthrough, smiled and let it go. "plot armor" has been around for so long that i started to ignore most of it to keep the game making fun to play. Nearly every RPG i played, be it final fantasy, might and magic or any else, had such issues. I never really cared more than

beeing a bit proud to have seen it laugh.

But it seems quite a few people see it as a problem as the story becomes redunant after recognizing this hole. what we know about the Plot so far is, that it is centered around this little wriggler. Having such an obvious and more or less easy way to get rid of it despite all the problems even hags and other

Illithids have, sucks a bit.

I agree that violently letting people you hardly know bash in your head to get resurrected is out of the question. Even in a setting like this, people are afraid of dying. Resurrections can fail. So there is no insurance that you come back.

That brings me back to the point where the PCs simply should not die.

Let them stay incapacitated after the third failed save without the option to help them back up (too weak due to blood loss to get back into the fight or somesuch). When all are down we can get a nice little video sequence where we get dragged to moonrise and get brainwashed -> Game over.

Gales storyline also starts with the 3rd failed save and all should work. He is near death after all. Exchange the True Resurrection to another scroll that can help. This condition is so special that it should be possible to think up something else.

Here is an idea: Let gale turn to stone after the 3rd failed save and start with his necro aura. Then the scroll the mephit hides just need to be a Stone to Flesh to get him back. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The only reason your grop is holding together is that they all need each other, remove that and they will send you to hell faster than Gale did in his campfire scene. :-/

I'm not sure I understand your suggested fix.
- Are you saying that it is implied we are surviving because we have companions to watch our backs? That feels very much in line with UnknownEvil's suggestion: We dont die because...why waste time with death as long as someone is still standing?
- Are you saying that death should just be permanent? The tadpole emerges from companions, but you can't raise them in any way? Does that not still require an explanation as to why my clerics reveify, raise dead, resurection, etc... spells are not working on anyone I can actually cast them on? I wouldn't want to be on Larians bug report team if that is the solution. smile
- Are you saying just let death fix the problem for everyone but the player controlled character(s)? If you raise a dead companion, they get up and say "Thanks for all the fish! Laterz!", but if you have an NPC raise a PC, the tadpole is still there because... The Larian DM says so. I don't really find that solution any more satisfactory than the current situation.

Please clarify. Some of these might work, but I still feel my idea is the lowest budget.

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
I agree that violently letting people you hardly know bash in your head to get resurrected is out of the question.

I don't think this would be a "Kill me now" type of decision. But rather a "What to do in case of death" type of decision. When death happens as a result of the games natural struggles, why not just smash a companions head in to rid them of the tadpole before bringing them back to life? If this was a tabletop game and we came across a scroll of true resurrection, or my druid reached a level in Act 1 where I could cast re-incarnate, I could see the group having a discussion about it. We would say what we want to happen in case of death. Astarian would likely be like "Just revive me, no head smashing!". But I could see Lazel preferring the possibility of death or even coming back as non-gith over continuing on with the parasite. Would the DM pipe in and say it wont work (I would expect an explanation or call foul on the whole campaign if they did)? Or would they let us possibly rid one of the companions of the parasite? What happens then? Does the companion stick around out of loyalty, attack us or leave quietly in the night? Without the tadpole, could we now control them like some thrall? Would there be a consequence for those that stick around with no parasite, like the one we will likely see for those who choose to get branded with the sebille control tattoo, I mean, sign of the absolute. smile All good questions, but all big budget ideas.

If we learn that being brought back quickly is the only real option (And if we get head smashed, decapitated or disintegrated, it is permanent death even if the spell is True Resurrection), problem solved, DM's "It wont work" explanation accepted, discussion not needed. What I am offering here is in fact the DM's explanation and I'm just putting in the game by placing it in a book.

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Let gale turn to stone after the 3rd failed save

Nice idea. I like the way you think. My idea was to have him fighting the intellect devourers at the crash site and fall immediately when you approached. Thus he would have just died, and his Progarmmed Illusion spell would have just kicked off. So he would die, but not as a companion. You save him and then redo his intro with some gratitude. Once a companion, dying during combat would no longer be possible. But my idea was way more complicated then just having him use Flesh to Stone on himself. However all gale solutions are big budget and that is the main issue with the whole not-dying concept.


The thing is, the ceremorphosis quirk is just irritating enough that I want it fixed/explained, but not irritating enough that I want Larian prioritizing it over other things. There are so many other more important things I want them to fix. So the ideal solution is the one that gets the job done with least effort. A dev could crank out my idea in 20 minutes with access to the code base. That is why I stand by it as the best. (Not that the other ideas here aren't good or even better).

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Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
As far as i know you can only kill one of your companions permanently and even then i did not see the tadpole emerge. Drive a stake through Astarion in the camp and look.
I did ... several times actualy. laugh
That conversation is clearly "under construction" right now, after all we dont even have any cinematic there, just text. :-/
Who knows what will happen later? :P

On the other hand tho ...
Chubblot managed to datamine conversation between Lae'zel and Shadowheart, where one of them have to die (unless you win Dif 30 charisma roll) ...
And yes, there indeed was squishing tadpole scene included. :P

Forum cant do spoiler inside of spoiler so ... here it is: Time 16:00

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
But it seems quite a few people see it as a problem as the story becomes redunant after recognizing this hole. what we know about the Plot so far is, that it is centered around this little wriggler. Having such an obvious and more or less easy way to get rid of it despite all the problems even hags and other Illithids have, sucks a bit.
Problem with this so called solution is that it would only switch single problem in story logic for another ...

"Elder, powerfull and in tadpole removal services experienced Hag ... have no way to actualy help you."
"Known and respected healer, first druid Halsin ... have no way to actualy help you."
"Well known and mostly not so respected, but experienced (or at least he claim he is) Volo ... have no way to actualy help you."
"Acording to Lae'zel your only way to actualy get healed is her people ..."

And then Lae'zel come with her huge hammer, she will do *SMASH* ... Shadowheard do *cast* afterwards ... and voila!
You are alive, well, and your brainmass was just reduced of one tadpole. laugh

Please dont say that this seems better. -_-

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
I agree that violently letting people you hardly know bash in your head to get resurrected is out of the question. Even in a setting like this, people are afraid of dying. Resurrections can fail. So there is no insurance that you come back.
Exactly smile

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
That brings me back to the point where the PCs simply should not die.

Let them stay incapacitated after the third failed save without the option to help them back up (too weak due to blood loss to get back into the fight or somesuch).
This sadly came to quite strong colision with curent rules ...
How would you explain difference between stabilized and unstabilized party member ... slightly and hardly incapacitated? laugh

I mean, it sounds to me like something that everyone can use in their heads ... and that should be enough. :-/

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
When all are down we can get a nice little video sequence where we get dragged to moonrise and get brainwashed -> Game over.
This is pure nonsence ...
You can die fighting the Hag / Gnolls / Zhentarims / Flaming Fist / Githyanki / Tieflings / Druids / Wood Woads / a Toad laugh / Owlbear / and many many more. :-/

None of them will drag you to moonrise ... and to create specific "game over" cinematic for each option would be expencive, especialy since most people when their game finished dont want to watch any video, they want to reload and play again asap. :-/

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Gales storyline also starts with the 3rd failed save and all should work. He is near death after all. Exchange the True Resurrection to another scroll that can help. This condition is so special that it should be possible to think up something else.

Here is an idea: Let gale turn to stone after the 3rd failed save and start with his necro aura. Then the scroll the mephit hides just need to be a Stone to Flesh to get him back. Problem solved.
Except if he would be "just incapacitated" ... any heal should have work on him ...
NO matter how you will explain it, it allways fail ... heavy damage, internal bleeding, organs damage, extreme exhaustion? That all is threated by healing magic. :-/


Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by Dheuster
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The only reason your grop is holding together is that they all need each other, remove that and they will send you to hell faster than Gale did in his campfire scene. :-/

I'm not sure I understand your suggested fix.
- Are you saying that it is implied we are surviving because we have companions to watch our backs? That feels very much in line with UnknownEvil's suggestion: We dont die because...why waste time with death as long as someone is still standing?
- Are you saying that death should just be permanent? The tadpole emerges from companions, but you can't raise them in any way? Does that not still require an explanation as to why my clerics reveify, raise dead, resurection, etc... spells are not working on anyone I can actually cast them on? I wouldn't want to be on Larians bug report team if that is the solution. smile
- Are you saying just let death fix the problem for everyone but the player controlled character(s)? If you raise a dead companion, they get up and say "Thanks for all the fish! Laterz!", but if you have an NPC raise a PC, the tadpole is still there because... The Larian DM says so. I don't really find that solution any more satisfactory than the current situation.

Please clarify. Some of these might work, but I still feel my idea is the lowest budget.
Neither ...
I just say that the only reason your grop is traveling together, working together, sometimes even talking together or in Shadowheart case standing silently (and condemning) next to each other ... is the fact that they all have Tadpole in their heads, and they all need to resolve this problem.

Remove tadpole and they have no reason to stay.
Therefore, logicaly, in order to keep them stay, tadpole needs to stay.

If you desperately need some headcannon to explain this ... just count the facts and connect dots:
- When tadpoled NPC die (permanently) tadpole emerges ...
- When tadpoled PC die (permanently) tadpole emerges ... (acording to datamined stuff)
- When tadpoled PC die (temporarily) tadpole does not emerge ...
- Tadpoles connect minds of our companions, so they are able to read each other thougts ...
- Tadpoles are simple creatures, but they are not stupid ...
- To ressurect someone (at least with spells we curently have), you need functional body for his spirit to return ...
- Our characters do not wish to die. laugh (It seems incredibly funny that i actualy need to say this out loud.)

Conclusions:
- Transformating our heads into red mush with pieces of bones is not an option > non functional body.
- Any other way would not guarantee that tadpole will die too.
- When we kill someone, his tadpole knows that this was intentional ... there is nobody to ressurect it, therefore it emerges and try to reach safety ...
- When we are killed, tadpole knows there are other party members who will ressurect us, since they come to conclusion that they all "need each other".

Final conclusion:
This whole "method" is unusable in this case.

Originally Posted by Dheuster
Would the DM pipe in and say it wont work
I believe they allready did.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
As far as i know you can only kill one of your companions permanently and even then i did not see the tadpole emerge. Drive a stake through Astarion in the camp and look.
I did ... several times actualy. laugh
That conversation is clearly "under construction" right now, after all we dont even have any cinematic there, just text. :-/
Who knows what will happen later? :P

On the other hand tho ...
Chubblot managed to datamine conversation between Lae'zel and Shadowheart, where one of them have to die (unless you win Dif 30 charisma roll) ...
And yes, there indeed was squishing tadpole scene included. :P

Forum cant do spoiler inside of spoiler so ... here it is: Time 16:00

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
But it seems quite a few people see it as a problem as the story becomes redunant after recognizing this hole. what we know about the Plot so far is, that it is centered around this little wriggler. Having such an obvious and more or less easy way to get rid of it despite all the problems even hags and other Illithids have, sucks a bit.
Problem with this so called solution is that it would only switch single problem in story logic for another ...

"Elder, powerfull and in tadpole removal services experienced Hag ... have no way to actualy help you."
"Known and respected healer, first druid Halsin ... have no way to actualy help you."
"Well known and mostly not so respected, but experienced (or at least he claim he is) Volo ... have no way to actualy help you."
"Acording to Lae'zel your only way to actualy get healed is her people ..."

And then Lae'zel come with her huge hammer, she will do *SMASH* ... Shadowheard do *cast* afterwards ... and voila!
You are alive, well, and your brainmass was just reduced of one tadpole. laugh

Please dont say that this seems better. -_-

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
I agree that violently letting people you hardly know bash in your head to get resurrected is out of the question. Even in a setting like this, people are afraid of dying. Resurrections can fail. So there is no insurance that you come back.
Exactly smile

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
That brings me back to the point where the PCs simply should not die.

Let them stay incapacitated after the third failed save without the option to help them back up (too weak due to blood loss to get back into the fight or somesuch).
This sadly came to quite strong colision with curent rules ...
How would you explain difference between stabilized and unstabilized party member ... slightly and hardly incapacitated? laugh

I mean, it sounds to me like something that everyone can use in their heads ... and that should be enough. :-/

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
When all are down we can get a nice little video sequence where we get dragged to moonrise and get brainwashed -> Game over.
This is pure nonsence ...
You can die fighting the Hag / Gnolls / Zhentarims / Flaming Fist / Githyanki / Tieflings / Druids / Wood Woads / a Toad laugh / Owlbear / and many many more. :-/

None of them will drag you to moonrise ... and to create specific "game over" cinematic for each option would be expencive, especialy since most people when their game finished dont want to watch any video, they want to reload and play again asap. :-/

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Gales storyline also starts with the 3rd failed save and all should work. He is near death after all. Exchange the True Resurrection to another scroll that can help. This condition is so special that it should be possible to think up something else.

Here is an idea: Let gale turn to stone after the 3rd failed save and start with his necro aura. Then the scroll the mephit hides just need to be a Stone to Flesh to get him back. Problem solved.
Except if he would be "just incapacitated" ... any heal should have work on him ...
NO matter how you will explain it, it allways fail ... heavy damage, internal bleeding, organs damage, extreme exhaustion? That all is threated by healing magic. :-/


Why do the graphics look so different than on my game :O

to the point(s):

That just beeing incapacitated is causes a collision with the rules i know, thats why i said there would come up other issues, it plugs the plot hole though. And Rulecollisions are easier explained than plotholes in my expierience. To go from incapacitated seems easy enough, Changing Gales predicament so he turns to stone or whatever too. But thats just ideas that come up, i haven't ever thought this to the end. Mainly because we do no really know if this really is an endproduct. It may well be that all this discussuin is useless since larian has changed it already for the endproduct. The video clearly shows that they are well aware of the issue.
I simply like to paticipate in the discussion and think up possible solutions. laugh

OkOK, we need more than one Game Over video....smartass :P (you're tight there ofc)


BTW, i chose turning to stone for exactly that reason, because it halts the progress of whatever it is that ails you. (seen in the hag den). So you are right that a simple Stone to Flesh would not be enough but a second scroll with healing to keep him from dying after beeing flesh again. There are always way to make something work.
We will see how they will do smile

One more thing: Common sense is optional wink

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Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Why do the graphics look so different than on my game :O
Chubblot is moding his gameplay videos heavily ...
Also its 2 patches back, and last patch bring HUGE graphic update ... so there is that. smile

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
I simply like to paticipate in the discussion and think up possible solutions. laugh
Nothing bad about that ...
I simply wanted to point out that this particular solution fixes the hole by diging another hole and moving the dirt into the first hole instead. laugh laugh laugh
Not exactly effective solution in my opinion. :P

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
OkOK, we need more than one Game Over video....smartass :P (you're tight there ofc)
Tight ... i would like that. laugh

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
BTW, i chose turning to stone for exactly that reason, because it halts the progress of whatever it is that ails you. (seen in the hag den). So you are right that a simple Stone to Flesh would not be enough but a second scroll with healing to keep him from dying after beeing flesh again. There are always way to make something work.
I dare to say that there is difference ...
I mean turning into stone stopped the Disease that Dwarf in Hags lair had, to spread ... it would not stop your heart from being pierced by arrow. laugh

And gale condition with that nethereese magic is even worse ... kinda doubt that would be fixed by petrifying him. laugh

Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
One more thing: Common sense is optional wink
Isnt it allways?


Short coment on my English. smile

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It's my opinion that the fact the tadpole doesn't crawl out when our characters die isn't a plothole. The issue is that the game makes a point of showing us that this happens and then the characters don't comment on it. I think that if the game is going to show us a scene of this happening, then the characters should talk about that scene. It's the obvious solution-not necessarily good, but obvious-and the fact no one voices it does make it harder for the players to tell if this is a mystery the game is presenting, or a mistake in writing that hasn't been accounted for.

I think another issue is that it's currently kind of hard to know how *canon* party character death is. Typically in most games, it's assumed that anytime the player or companions die in gameplay, it's non-canon and usually it's established early on that that's not the case. And typically in those cases death is either a specific aspect of the story, or accounted for at least in the endings, and by the lack of presence of a companion in the case of crpgs with a permadeath option. But here we get a specifically in-story way to bring back companions, and Gale's death is an outright plot point. However the possible death and resurection of other companions goes unremarked upon. We don't even get a sense of how resurection, which is a fact of the setting, is viewed in the setting so we can actually know if that sort of nonchalance is typical.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I just say that the only reason your group is traveling together ... is the fact that they all have Tadpole in their heads...

I realize now that I misread your original post. Normally one would say "is to not mention it at all", however you said "is not mention it at all". Without the preposition, my brain assumed you meant "is not mentioned at all ..." Big difference. As I read the rest of your post, I was expecting a solution but only got a list of facts. Hence my confusion smile Now that I realize you meant "to not mention it at all", I realize what you were trying to say.

After making this post, I did a bit more research. This video at 3:58 shows a snippet of text from page 12 of The Illithiad by Bruce R. Cordell (WOC 1998) that seems to indicate the homebrew rule I thought I was making up to explain things is in fact canon. (spelled out below):

Quote
"...Generally speaking, the point of no return (in the case of the victim) occurs one hour after implantation . Any time after this, it is impossible to restore the victim; his or her spirit seeks its fate in the Outer Planes...."

Funny how I thought I was making up the whole "point of no return", only to find out that is exactly what canon calls it... Anyway, if this is the case, there is not **currently a plot hole. The highlighted part above aligns with what I said: the issue is with the souls compatibility with the material plane. Hence why spells that have caveats on the soul's ability to return won't work (assuming everyone in the party has passed the point of no return). So Revivify is fine so long as the body remains in tact and the person died recently. You could also stretch things a bit and claim other raise dead spells might work as long as revivify WOULD also work in the same scenario.

However, non of this changes my Suggestion.

At issue is that most people will take the game at face value. Whether you know D&D lore or not, players will look for consistency, build expectations and discover discrepancies. Right now there is an apparent discrepancy creating the feeling of a plot hole around how simple tadpole removal should be. We have a scroll of true resurrection, a spooky creepy skeleton that can "cleave soul to flesh" when we die and we see tadpoles emerging left and right from all the true souls we are killing. The simple solution is apparent enough that people are posting about it in forums. (Per your first comment). So even if it is not a plot hole, I still feel it needs to be explained in game. My solution and wording may be overly simple, but at least I have Halsin's voice admit he doesn't know the specifics, only the important parts. Enough to convince you that head-smash is probably a bad idea and not one worth entertaining.

Anyway, I appreciate your feedback, especially the video link showing the tadpole emerge from a companion.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
That brings me back to the point where the PCs simply should not die.

Let them stay incapacitated after the third failed save without the option to help them back up (too weak due to blood loss to get back into the fight or somesuch).
This sadly came to quite strong colision with curent rules ...
How would you explain difference between stabilized and unstabilized party member ... slightly and hardly incapacitated? laugh

I actually really like the idea of just not dying (outside scripted sequences), but I wouldn't rely on it to solve the issue. My hope is that the game will have difficulty settings and some of those (Easy) will prevent companion death and others (hard) will allow it. Not sure what the default setting should be. But I feel the problem should be solved independently of death protections. It will be nice when they are in place, but the solution shouldn't rely on them.

As for rules... I think most users would chalk it up to convenience. Right now you don't have a choice but to revive them. If you are playing multiplayer., the game wont let you rest again (Partial or Long) until all Player Controlled Characters have been revived. And in single player, while you can rest when NPCs are dead, if someone dies and you decide you don't want to revive them (Wyl is useless... let him rot), you have to do it anyway. Why? Because you can't ask a dead party member to stay at camp and free up the slot for someone else. So things may change, but right now the game gives us no choice but to revive everyone. (Or reload and ensure they dont die). Why make people jump though hoops to do the inevitable?

Back to death protections, I think it would be good if Larian did something with Gale so that death isn't necessary for his story arc. Whether he has just died when you first meet him and you save him or he has a non-removable cursed item like shadowhearts weapon that causes him to turn to stone when reaching 1 HP. If they fixed that, then allowing no-death-for-companions would be a valid difficulty setting as well as avoiding perceived plot holes regarding the tadpole problem. In harder difficulties where companions die, you are still covered by the explanation I proposed placed in halsin's journal to prevent the feeling of plot holes.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I think that if the game is going to show us a scene of this happening, then the characters should talk about that scene. It's the obvious solution-not necessarily good, but obvious-and the fact no one voices it does make it harder for the players to tell if this is a mystery the game is presenting, or a mistake in writing that hasn't been accounted for.
Agreed that it would be nice if we learned about it and understood what people were thinking and not thinking through observed discussion. The catch is, not everyone will have much to say on it. If your party consisted of Shadowheart, Astarion and Wyl... not sure what those three would have to offer. You can also choose to play the game solo, which means you won't learn things that are only discovered through discussion with companions. Conversations would be great, but Larian still needs to explain things in a book as a fall back. And if budget and time are critical, I would start with the book and maybe add some conversation later, time permitting.

** A bit ironically... in this video, we see the parasite leave a companion's body within moments of death... that means technically we could cast revivify on the dead companion after the parasite left and they would be free to go... But obviously the game wont let us because... plot armor. So plot holes might be coming, but that content isn't officially in the game yet. I'm hoping they update the scene and remove the parasite stomp or go full decapitation after the initial stab, making revivify a non-option while explaining why the tadpole emerged...

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I dunno ... mention will probably not hurt anything ...
But it just dont feel necesary to me, i mean Omeluum specificly tells us that while trying to chirurgicaly remove the tadpole, we would not survive the outcome ... i believe that from context it should be clear that such death would be permanent ... and exactly as Gale said, tone and gestures included: "Is to be avoided". wink


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I think a mention is necessary far earlier than whenever Omeluum comes into the story (I haven't reached that point yet and have thus far played all the way to the part where we enter the Underdark). Mention of it should come soon after seeing the tadpole leave the dead True Soul. This question, to my mind, isn't meant to be a mystery for the player to unravel. Therefor it should be made clearer for the players so that they can be on the same page with the game. It's really as simple as someone saying "with how strange the tadpole has been thus far, we shouldn't rely on assuming such a risky tactic is going to work out for us." Boom, just like that the audience understands the parameters of the narrative and aren't left wondering if the game is ignoring the obvious answer or not.

As for the issue of not everyone in the party having much to say about it, I think it's just a challenge for the writing team to deal with.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
...Omeluum specificly tells us that while trying to chirurgicaly remove the tadpole, we would not survive the outcome ...

Surviving removal isn't the issue. I think it is pretty clear we wouldn't survive. But why can't we simply be raised after dying is the unanswered question. I get that people don't want to voluntarily die. But if you had a discussion similar to writing one's will.. "If I die in the coming days, what do I want you to do?" You could tell you companions to go grab volo and have him pull that tadpole out of your corpse at any cost before raising you. Lazel would certainly choose that option.

It frustrates me that there are all these conversations about "What will you do if I start to turn", but no one thinks to talk about "What will you do if I die in the next encounter". The story has been written for a world that isn't the forgotten realms. Revivify, raise dead and resurrection exist for a reason. Party members "die" in combat all the time in a typical D&D campaign. If someone falls and the party isn't high enough in level to raise their own dead, they typically go to the nearest temple and "make a donation" to have the priests raise them.

But again, there isn't an issue really... but people will think there is one if it isn't made clear. All it would take would be a discussion with Gale where the pc suggests removing the tadpole if they fell before being raised and let Gale explain to them why that isn't possible. No more wondering. But that is big budget and not reliable as not everyone will choose to travel with Gale. So a book makes sense IMO.

By similar thinking, the conversation with Omelum may never happen...

Thanks for the discussion. Still welcoming any other feedback or suggestions.

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If there isn't a plothole, I think Larian is trying to be too subtle here. While bits and pieces of story/lore does provide hints of a feasible explanation, I think a more direct scene early on to address this loophole will be for the best.

For better or for worst, pointing out plot holes has become a pretty prevalent in main-stream entertainment critique (not that it's necessarily wrong, but just that it's become a much bigger point of focus now more than ever due to a few catastrophically produced movies and tv shows). Whether our tadpoles are different from the others, the plot hole of "death = the solution" can be addressed by variety of feasible in-game discussions. I think we can even come up with ways in-lore to address the revivify and resurrection magic in general. For example:

Example Explanation 1: The tadpole is so parasitic that it has inserted itself into the blue print of your body, as if it was a part of it. Meaning, even resurrection magic will be tricked to restore the tadpole as if it was a part of you.

Example Explanation 2: The tadpole is bound to you not just on the prime materiel plane, but also the Shadow Plane (hence the Netherese magic Ethel freaks out about). You need to remove the tadpole from both planes in quick succession, otherwise as long as one of the links exists, the tadpole will regenerates itself into your mind (could be an interesting mission down the line)



Regardless of the explanation, I think a few earlier scenes and observations needs to be made to make this follow better:

  • The first time Tav or a Companion dies in combat, there should be a scene/dialogue exploring this plot hole. Maybe even let the player try various methods to destroy the parasite (though might be too gross). The key is to show that if the dead companion is revived, the Tadpole is revived with them.
  • Depending on whether our tadpoles are the same as the other True Souls, some scenes need to be retconned. I.e. if they are the same, then the Tadpole should not leave Guts or Edowin's body (and these scenes can be used to trigger the above dialogue)
  • Various NPCs (i.e. Halsin) can provide more exposition later on about the special nature of these tadpoles.

Last edited by Topgoon; 28/12/21 11:05 PM.
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True Resurrection
You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its Hit Points.

The key here is, "If the creature's soul is free and willing.". I believe in the case of the MC and companions, their souls, via shadow magic, are no longer free.

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