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#804066 17/12/21 09:37 AM
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Hello there once again. laugh

Some of you might know me from topic suggesting Followers ability rolls ...
- Wich i cant find for some reason. :-/ -
Or from topic suggesting Variant ability rolls ...
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=789524#Post789524

And here i come again with another crazy, but potentialy interesting idea. smile
Wich kinda combines previous two (thats why i mentioned them). wink

How would you like option to add ability modifiers of your followers to YOUR OWN ROLL?
I mean the whole point in this suggestion is to make our party feel more like party, rather than just protagonist followed by 3 (or 5) mindless husks that talks only when asked. :-/

Like for examples:
[Intimidation] Wyll: I shall not hurt you, but SHE *pointing at Lae'zel* will. > *roll* + Will Cha + Lae'zel Str

Thats basicaly it. laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Not a fan of adding multiple characters' stats together. Assuming skill proficiency is also added, this can easily result in bonuses of 12+ (without expertise) which breaks bounded accuracy and effectively guarantees success on most skill checks. So unless you're arguing for the DCs of checks to be increased by 5 across the board...?

I think what you want can be accomplished by other options. The 5e "Help" action, where an ally can help another to gain advantage on the roll. In this case, Wyll would roll his Cha (Intimidation) at Advantage or Lae'zel would roll her Strength (Intimidation) at Advantage. Or each of them would roll their own ability and you'd take the higher. Importantly, both of them would participate in the dialoge/cutscene.

Additionally, the "party should feel like a party" goal can be met by other party members speaking up & expressing their opinions in dialogue without Tav/the speaker specifically asking them. I.e., them not meekly standing there in silence for most of the time.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Assuming skill proficiency is also added, this can easily result in bonuses of 12+ (without expertise)
I would say only one proficiency should be added ...
Cant explain it tho, but it kinda doesnt seems right to add the same bonus twice. laugh

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
So unless you're arguing for the DCs of checks to be increased by 5 across the board...?
Actualy ... i do, in some sort of way.
I mean, the outcome you described would be possible in DnD, where people can react on each other in real time ... here we have predetermined dice rolls, and anything beyond those prepared options is litteraly impossible (i dont count mods, since they only make our list of options wider).

So aswell as Wyll will (i just love this) never be able to roll to Intimidation in middle of Tavs conversation (like Tav is the one who is talking not Wyll) ... OR vice versa ... unless Larian specificly imlpement to that specific dialogue at least single option for us to use Wyll to resolve this situation.

Aswell as We will never be able to use our alternative Ability scores, unless Larian specificly give us additional Diceroll option with alternative Ability score (or implement option to add it as a bonus) ...

The same we would never be able to use two characters Ability score to roll dices within single dialogue. smile
Therefore IF someone in Larian would like it, and gived us this option ... he can easily incerase Difficiulty option for that specific roll. laugh
You know like:
Tav [Intimidation] > Dif 15
Tav + Lae'zel [Intimidation] > Dif 20

Yes im aware that it would negate whole effect from mechanical point of view. laugh
And yes im aware that people would find out pretty fast, IF they would save scuming. :P
But it would look better in my honest opinion, in conversations. smile
I simply adore that part when my Drow Tav was helping Lae'zel to interrogate Zoru ... Lae'zel was being intimidating, and my Tav was just staring at him as evil as she could ... and it worked like a charm. I simply want more options to use our companions like this. ^_^

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I think what you want can be accomplished by other options. The 5e "Help" action, where an ally can help another to gain advantage on the roll. In this case, Wyll would roll his Cha (Intimidation) at Advantage or Lae'zel would roll her Strength (Intimidation) at Advantage.
Advantage was my first idea to be honest ...
But concidering that most people was against advantage in other cases, and wanted rather flat bonus ... wich by the way showed to be great solution ... i presumed this would be simmilar. laugh

Also, there are allready things to give you advantage during conversations ... and i didnt want to diminish them. smile

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Or each of them would roll their own ability and you'd take the higher.
This is great idea!
I love it. :3

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Importantly, both of them would participate in the dialoge/cutscene.

Additionally, the "party should feel like a party" goal can be met by other party members speaking up & expressing their opinions in dialogue without Tav/the speaker specifically asking them. I.e., them not meekly standing there in silence for most of the time.
This both should go without saying ... i mean there clearly is progress, but it would need much more. frown

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 17/12/21 04:04 PM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Advantage was my first idea to be honest ...
But concidering that most people was against advantage in other cases, and wanted rather flat bonus ... wich by the way showed to be great solution ... i presumed this would be simmilar. laugh

Also, there are allready things to give you advantage during conversations ... and i didnt want to diminish them. smile
As one who uses this exact argument about Advantage overlap frequently, fair point. Though there are ~less sources of Advantage in D&D dialogue than in combat, especially because getting dialogue Advantage usually requires casting a spell in front of the person you're talking to. Which is extremely noticeable and in PnP would likely lead to hostilities.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Therefore IF someone in Larian would like it, and gived us this option ... he can easily incerase Difficiulty option for that specific roll. laugh
You know like:
Tav [Intimidation] > Dif 15
Tav + Lae'zel [Intimidation] > Dif 20

Yes im aware that it would negate whole effect from mechanical point of view. laugh
But it would look better in my honest opinion, in conversations. smile
I simply adore that part when my Drow Tav was helping Lae'zel to interrogate Zoru ... Lae'zel was being intimidating, and my Tav was just staring at him as evil as she could ... and it worked like a charm. I simply want more options to use our companions like this. ^_^
I still don't particularly like this solution, but I'm finding it hard to verbalize exactly why. There's no(?) precedence in D&D for adding 2 ability scores for a check, so adding it to BG3 just feels icky. And then Larian would have to properly explain this rule in game...onboarding has not exactly been a strength of BG3 so far. I can foresee players getting frustrated and confused when they click the "Lae'zel+Tav" option and it shows a higher DC. And it just seems a bit too complicated for its intended goal of. None of these reasons by themselves are sufficient in my opinion, but all of them together makes me not like it.

I wouldn't be strongly opposed if Larian implemented it this way, but I'd prefer one of the other options.

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Help
You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn.

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

This is what Help is SUPPOSED to do. It is not supposed to magically revive a fallen companion to 1 HP.

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I had a different perspective. If Wyll does the implied threat, I figured Lae'zel would get her own roll, based on her own stats, as opposed to adding them all together. If the Druid Grove is any indication though, adding more rolls will be universally rejected.

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It should all be dependent of the scenario.

Scenario 1: The Wyll/Lae'zel scenario above. This should be a switch character roll. In other words, Wyll does not make the Intimidate roll. He knows that Lae'zel has the better Intimidate, so he passes the job to her. We REALLY need Larian to implement this. Not all scenarios would work with this option, but many do. Another in game scenario that this works for is with the guy at the door into the Dank Crypt after you face Gimblebock. You knock on the door. The guy asks who's there. You should have the option to either switch off to someone like Lae'zel to Intimidate, someone like Astarion or Shadowheart (or whoever has the best skill) to Deceive, or whatever. Other scenarios this would be good for are things like Kagha arguing about Arabella. Whoever has the best Persuasion skill should be able to speak up and take control of the situation. Whoever has the best Nature should be able to speak up and try to persuade Kagha via their knowledge of druid practices. It shouldn't even necessarily be that the main character says, "Hey Lae'zel. Take over." That person just DOES take over. So, against Kagha, if I triggered the convo with Shadowheart, but I have a druid as my MC, Kagha begins by talking to Shadowheart, but my druid could just step up and take charge at certain points. This would REALLY make it more of a party oriented game as opposed to the MC and his/her cronies.

Scenario 2: Allies provide Advantage to skill checks. This would work for certain scenarios only. Larian would certainly have to limit this or every skill check would be with Advantage. Times it wouldn't work would be things like picking locks, naturally, but also scenarios like trying to convince an animal to do something when only one character is speaking with animals, or when you and your party should be at a clear disadvantage already, such as trying to convince goblins not to attack you when you seem like you're not their allies. So, at the Blighted Village, for example, unless you're a drow, you should probably not get an advantage because they'd most certainly think you're not one of them - unless you use the Illithid tadpole thing of course. However, examples of when it SHOULD happen is things like trying to stop Arca from killing Sazza. You should have the option to allow Gale, if he's with you, to aid you. Then show Gale step in the way with you, and you get Advantage on your roll to persuade Arca to back off. Interrogating Zorru with Lae'zel. If you go along with her Intimidate, a roll should be made but with Advantage because you are aiding her. Trying to convince the tieflings to let Lae'zel out of her cage should be another example of this scenario IF you have someone with you who is willing to help, like Gale. Shadowheart wouldn't, and neither would Astarion. So as long as you have Gale, he would almost certainly lend an Advantage to help convince the tieflings to just go away.

Scenario 3: Combine 1 and 2. Some scenarios should allow you to both switch to the most effective/ skilled person AND provide them with advantage. So, in the Wyll/Lae'zel scenario, there could also be an option to have Wyll to switch to Lae'zel and then offer Advantage by standing with her and being all intimidating. Again, though, limited by scenario. So, Wyll versus Spike would not provide Advantage because Spike views Wyll as a baby boy who can't stand up to him. Spike would not be intimidated additionally by anyone in particular in your group. Likewise, when trying to persuade the ogres to turn against Ragzlin, no one would really be able to provide advantage for that.

Scenario 4: No ability to switch characters or provide advantage - so basically just as it is now. Examples of when it would be the correct scenario would be after you show up at Grymforge and prove you're a True Soul. They all view you, now, as a True Soul and the leader of the group. So, switching out to someone else would be viewed as you allowing an underling to speak for you. That might work in some cases, but not all. If Nere, for example, views you as the leader, and you switched to Lae'zel or Lae'zel attempted to help you, that would not go over well with someone like Nere. He feels you are his equal and may chat with you, but if one of you lessers suddenly started to try to take over, he would probably be offended. Same with Minthara and Ragzlin and Gut... unless there was a good reason for the switch.

A good reason for a switch could also be in scenarios where you have a cleric in your midst and only a cleric could cast a certain, needed spell. So, say for example, when you first meet Ragzlin and he's trying to interrogate a mind flayer. It makes no sense that he asks you to do it if you are of a class that isn't cleric or bard. Speak with Dead is a cleric/bard spell. So, it would make more sense for you to offer to have Shadowheart step up to lead the Speak with Dead interrogation as opposed to having your MC if your MC isn't a cleric or bard.

This is, perhaps, not the best example, because I know Ragzlin technically casts the spell or something (which is a bit confusing as to why he even then asks you to help), but the point is that it would be good to be able to switch characters in such scenarios where maybe a certain class or skill makes someone else more intelligent of a choice even IF NPC's view you as the leader and the others as underlings.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I wouldn't be strongly opposed if Larian implemented it this way, but I'd prefer one of the other options.
I got that feeling often. smile
But what you suggested i liked ... let them both roll and pick the outcome that suits you better ... that would be great in my opinion. ^_^


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I wouldn't be strongly opposed if Larian implemented it this way, but I'd prefer one of the other options.
I got that feeling often. smile
But what you suggested i liked ... let them both roll and pick the outcome that suits you better ... that would be great in my opinion. ^_^


I agree,

It feels like in conversations. The acting character is always alone. It's rare to have conversations or actions as a group. Take the Waukeen's Rest. There are like 5 or 6 Flaming Fist trying to break down the door. And you come, start the conversation with your str 8 mage and get the option to break down the door.
All while your stronger companions look at you pitifully.

I would (as i did in conversations) to treat the group more like one character. I have 2 ideas for that (and hope it has not been mentioned since i did not read the whole post :D)

1: Take all applicable boni and roll. Example on above mentioned str check: We have 4 chars with str 10 (+0); Str 17 (+3); Str 12 (+1); Str 8 (-1). That would make a roll with a +3 Modifier. If you take negative into account is questionable since that char should simply stay away then laugh. Maybe some DCs need to be tweaked for that
but it would work for all occasions. Even in conversations where intimidation, Persuasion or similar checks are used. Some checks (like perception) should stay unassisted.

2: Take the Skill bonus of the highest available character and add +1 for each helper if he is profincient in the needed skill or has a bonus on the used attribute. Example on the Str check again: Here we would have a +4 for the roll since Str 8 and 10 would not be strong enough to contribute.
For profiency checks that would also be good since you only get help when 2 or more are able. Take an intimidation check. While you intimidate or persuade or lie it would not be helpful if someone not versed in said skill pipes in and ruins your performance. On the other hand, 2 people
that can intimidate should have a higher impact.


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