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I played through Patch 6 as evil first. Now I'm playing good. Definite difference. Evil path = MUCH less fun. It's pretty much a more "Don't speak to me. I'm busy just being a Murder Hobo" playthrough. When I got to the Underdark, it's like my companions are just there, now. No dialogue. No convos. It's pretty much just business, like the fun is dead and there's no real interaction or nothing. It's like the game has just stopped and In playing through an unfinished area.

Meanwhile, not so with good path. People chat still, etc.

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If a character is evil its uncharacteristic of an evil character to be too chatty. As for the good character, you could make them less chatty but they should still be more friendlier than an evil character. These are polar opposites. I think currently in the game, if you choose to be evil, I believe Gate and Wyll may leave the party, since they are considered "good" characters. In most rpg video games where your choices matter, they also have consequences from those choices. Being too evil may cause a companion to not like you, leave or stop talking to you. If you are friendly with them, this will cause them to talk to you more because they like you and consider you their friend.

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I wonder what kind of talking would you expect ...
Something like:

"Hey friend, nice work eviscerating those innocent civilians back there ... what are you doing afternoon today?"


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What I mean is that prior to the underdark you at least have some sort of character interactions going on even on the evil path. Astarion, Lae'zel and Shadowheart would at least make your comments here and there and during dialogues or just on the path asking each other questions etc. I went through almost the entire Underdark and Grymforge, and they just aren't talking.

But, good playthrough, they're making comments about things all the time. "I like the way this guy thinks. It's a bit genocidal, but effective.". Stuff like that.

Evil path? Eerily silent. It's like they don't want to speak for fear my MC might kill them. It's just a bit... Weird.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
If a character is evil its uncharacteristic of an evil character to be too chatty.

You're thinking of some stereotypical cardboard villain. Morality and personality are definitely two different things. And villains who can mask their evil agenda with light hearted chat or purposeful small good deeds are much more interesting and dangerous.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
If a character is evil its uncharacteristic of an evil character to be too chatty.

You're thinking of some stereotypical cardboard villain. Morality and personality are definitely two different things. And villains who can mask their evil agenda with light hearted chat or purposeful small good deeds are much more interesting and dangerous.

That depends on what type of evil character you are. Not every evil character behaves the same way. It's just common to not expect an evil character to be too friendly.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I played through Patch 6 as evil first. Now I'm playing good. Definite difference. Evil path = MUCH less fun. It's pretty much a more "Don't speak to me. I'm busy just being a Murder Hobo" playthrough. When I got to the Underdark, it's like my companions are just there, now. No dialogue. No convos. It's pretty much just business, like the fun is dead and there's no real interaction or nothing. It's like the game has just stopped and In playing through an unfinished area.

Meanwhile, not so with good path. People chat still, etc.


Are you sure you're playing as an evil character or are you just playing as a murder hobo?

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What exactly do you mean by "evil character" ? My character helped defend the grove and the tieflings, then sicced some hyenas and gnolls against the two of travellers in the cave, saved Mayrina but kept the wand to control her undead husband. The companions were a bit silent in the underdark, though I am not sure this is due to the path and choices (all companions had medium to high approval) or due to the game being in EA?

On a slightly different matter, is Astarion's scar scene (where you write the runes on the dirt)related to a romance or dependent on approval? I never got it (even with a High approval), though I did romance Shadowheart.

Last edited by Scales & Fangs; 19/12/21 11:58 PM.
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Evil = You butcher the Grove and become Minthara's Lover.

Yes. I'm aware there are other ways of being evil. In fact, my character was a charlatan, pretending to be good and then stabbing everyone in the back.

So, my point is that everything was going fine until after I said goodbye to Minthara. Suddenly, SH, Astarion and Lae'zel all went silent. Gale and Wyll hated me and left and the others hardly speak anymore. They don't give opinions or thoughts or feelings. They don't have anymore dialogues at camp. I especially thought SH would have some serious stuff to say at Grymforge, but no. Hardly a few words. It's weird. And definitely no more Approval/Disapproval system. It's like they stopped approving or disapproving altogether, as if they no longer care about anything I do.

But in good playthrough, where you save the grove, it's like everyone is carrying on as before.

Last edited by GM4Him; 20/12/21 04:59 AM.
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So I agree that the "evil" path still needs more work, but what you're describing here sounds more like Murder-hobo-ing, which is a very distinct, "me vs. the world" kind of evil.

At least last time I played, my problem with the "Evil Path" (or more accurately, the Cult path) is that it's not really tempting or aligned to your character goals enough enough - the cult does very little to sell you on joining their side. If you're not hostile to her, Minthara just starts ordering you around, basically going like "you gonna join or what?". At most she mentions that you'll be "first amongst her favorites" if you guys successfully destroy the Grove, whatever that means. Honestly, I might have forgotten, but I'm not even sure why the Cult wants the Grove gone, other than Cult = bad.

The Cult doesn't offer you any solutions in terms of removing the tadpole, nor do they make a convincing case that you should keep it in there (which I think might be the way to go). It always felt like such a jump for my character who's #1 goal is to remove the tadpole to suddenly join in with the tadpole cult, without getting a thorough convincing that the tadpole should be kept.

Last edited by Topgoon; 20/12/21 05:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by Topgoon
So I agree that the "evil" path still needs more work, but what you're describing here sounds more like Murder-hobo-ing, which is a very distinct, "me vs. the world" kind of evil.

At least last time I played, my problem with the "Evil Path" (or more accurately, the Cult path) is that it's not really tempting or aligned to your character goals enough enough - the cult does very little to sell you on joining their side. If you're not hostile to her, Minthara just starts ordering you around, basically going like "you gonna join or what?". At most she mentions that you'll be "first amongst her favorites" if you guys successfully destroy the Grove, whatever that means. Honestly, I might have forgotten, but I'm not even sure why the Cult wants the Grove gone, other than Cult = bad.

The Cult doesn't offer you any solutions in terms of removing the tadpole, nor do they make a convincing case that you should keep it in there (which I think might be the way to go). It always felt like such a jump for my character who's #1 goal is to remove the tadpole to suddenly join in with the tadpole cult, without getting a thorough convincing that the tadpole should be kept.

I think the problem is one of assuming that the rewards are the only reason to align with the goblins. There are RP and POV reasons to align with them as well. Let's consider it from the perspective of those who respect strength.

-The Goblins, Minthara, Dror Razglin etc...have an active army that has dominated the countryside and is searching for the Druid grove to destroy them.
-The Goblin Camp are all trained fighters unified and organized into Warbands. (There is some internal competition but its not an issue)
-The Goblins have accumulated a lot of treasure from the raids they have been carrying out. They have food, money, and magic.
-The Goblins have clear leadership (again with some internal competition, but they are all firmly on the same side and not trying to destroy each other)
-The Goblins have strong allies supplying them(Zhentarim).

-The Druids/tieflings are hiding from and are in fear of discovery.
-The Tieflings and Druids have some warriors and Druids. They are not organized nor are they unified. Most are untrained.
-The Druids and Tieflings are running out of food and supplies, the cupboards are bare. Druids have moved to Goodberries to sustain.
-The Druids and Tieflings are on the verge of civil war. Shadow druids are making a play for control. ArchDruid is being held prisoner by Goblins.
-The Druids have no strong allies. They have some animals and Volo. No one is supplying them. They are trapped.

For a character that respects strength the choice is clear who you should side with here. Its VERY hard to respect those in the Druid grove - as those unable to protect themselves are basically useless; after all isn't that the definition of innocent? What use are the Druids and Tieflings as allies? None. Best to wipe them out and plunder what resources they have to strengthen yourself before they end up in the hands of an enemy.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 20/12/21 06:08 AM.

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GM4HIM: Can you be a little more specific?
Like where that conversation happened in good play and was missin in the other.
There is no way to tell if you arent just connecting unrelated dots right now. :-/

But when i was thinking about it ...
Originally Posted by GM4HIM
When I got to the Underdark, it's like my companions are just there, now. No dialogue. No convos. It's pretty much just business, like the fun is dead and there's no real interaction or nothing. It's like the game has just stopped and In playing through an unfinished area.
It seems like direct oposite to me ...
I mean what is our business down there anyway?

Minthara sended us to Mountain pass ...
Gith to the creche ...

I mean the only reason to get there is to search for a Nightsong ... wich on the other hand sound like HUFE detour for "no fun all business" character. :-/

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
They have some animals and Volo.
Actualy they dont. laugh
Goblins have him quite litteraly.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
-The Goblins, Minthara, Dror Razglin etc...have an active army that has dominated the countryside and is searching for the Druid grove to destroy them.
-The Goblin Camp are all trained fighters unified and organized into Warbands. (There is some internal competition but its not an issue)
-The Goblins have accumulated a lot of treasure from the raids they have been carrying out. They have food, money, and magic.
-The Goblins have clear leadership (again with some internal competition, but they are all firmly on the same side and not trying to destroy each other)
-The Goblins have strong allies supplying them(Zhentarim).
The Zhents are not their allies; they just do business with them, and they will do business with you as well. The goblins can be hardly called an army; there are a large group at best, but considering the druids are not exactly a military force defeating is not much of a feat. The don't even control much of this countryside, just the ruins and the nearby village. Any larger military force would likely cut them down with ease, which might be the reason Minthara is so impatient.

Allying with the goblins gets you no real rewards, you just do the job that Minthara has been failing at for the dubious pleasure of her acting like she's your boss. If you value strength, both factions are weak, if you are motivated by greed, you can destroy both factions for their treasures, if you are motivated by the promise of tadpole powers, Daisy gives you that regardless of your alliances.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
-The Goblins, Minthara, Dror Razglin etc...have an active army that has dominated the countryside and is searching for the Druid grove to destroy them.
-The Goblin Camp are all trained fighters unified and organized into Warbands. (There is some internal competition but its not an issue)
-The Goblins have accumulated a lot of treasure from the raids they have been carrying out. They have food, money, and magic.
-The Goblins have clear leadership (again with some internal competition, but they are all firmly on the same side and not trying to destroy each other)
-The Goblins have strong allies supplying them(Zhentarim).
The Zhents are not their allies; they just do business with them, and they will do business with you as well. The goblins can be hardly called an army; there are a large group at best, but considering the druids are not exactly a military force defeating is not much of a feat. The don't even control much of this countryside, just the ruins and the nearby village. Any larger military force would likely cut them down with ease, which might be the reason Minthara is so impatient.

Allying with the goblins gets you no real rewards, you just do the job that Minthara has been failing at for the dubious pleasure of her acting like she's your boss. If you value strength, both factions are weak, if you are motivated by greed, you can destroy both factions for their treasures, if you are motivated by the promise of tadpole powers, Daisy gives you that regardless of your alliances.

You arguments are based in semantics.

The Goblins have a supply chain is the point - which includes access to weapons and gunpowder. The Druids do NOT have a supply chain and are on the verge of starvation.

The Goblins/Absolute have an organized force that has managed to successfully complete a number of military operations. They raided Waukeens and Rest captured Duke Ravenguard, they control the blighted village, and the Shattered Sanctum. They have traps set up all over the area outside the Blighted Village all the way to the Chionthar. There is evidence to suggest they are running patrols through the entire area.

Objectively the Goblins are stronger here. As I mentioned, actual rewards are not the issue or the argument I am making, simply who would make the stronger ally at first glance.


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In almost every single RPG, the evil path is crap. Especially so in Pathfinder, it's downright ridiculous in that game. smirk

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Eh. Whatever. I almost never play evil. I really just wanted to let Larian know that it's kinda weird. I mean, everything Underdark and after seems incomplete and such if you take the "Murder Hobo Joining Minthara" route? Is that a better name for it? I mean, I thought it'd be just easier calling it the evil path since I"m fairly certain that at some point you're going to have to make a decision between joining the Absolute or rejecting the Absolute; joining being "evil" and rejecting being "good."

Whatever you want to call it, the point is that after I left the company of Minthara, I went into the Underdark, and the next thing I know, all my companions are silent. No additional interactions.

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Mmm yeah... I truly hope they do make ALL routes interesting in the end, for sure.

In case of evil routes, I think it would be awesome if you can take a "manipulative" evil route where you turn factions and powers against each other and capitalize on the outcome, opportunistic like.

Last edited by andreasrylander; 20/12/21 05:15 PM.
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Personaly i like it as it is and i hope it will stay as it is ...
My characters have enough reason to follow both pathes respectively ... and quite honestly if some player feels "not motivated enough to follow this quest" ... then he probably should not follow that quest, his own loss i would say. :-/

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 20/12/21 06:29 PM.

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Mmm yeah... I truly hope they do make ALL routes interesting in the end, for sure.

In case of evil routes, I think it would be awesome if you can take a "manipulative" evil route where you turn factions and powers against each other and capitalize on the outcome, opportunistic like.

Oh, I loved the ability to choose already. Oh how manipulative! Save Sazza, but that doesn't mean you're evil. You could pretend to be on Minthara's side and say you'll help her only to stab her in the back at the gate. Or, you can manipulate all your companions into thinking that's what you're doing only to help Minthara wipe out the Grove. I loved the different ways it could go.

But that's what I'm saying. There's nothing else after that. I guess maybe say you're helping Spaw only to murder him, but it's not quite the same. And the point is that by that point none of your companions even give their opinions. I choose to side with Spaw, not a word from Astarion. I choose to help Glut? Not a word. They just don't talk anymore. They're just there, always watching but it's like their personalities died with the tieflings and druids.

BTW. SO can't wait for the HALF ORC Minthara tells you to go meet on the road. 🥰🙏. Next patch please. Half orc and Cursed Land path please. And please throw in gnomes, barbarians, monks and paladins...

And Karlach and Minthara as playable companions. 🥰🙏

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Objectively the Goblins are stronger here. As I mentioned, actual rewards are not the issue or the argument I am making, simply who would make the stronger ally at first glance.
So what if the goblins are stronger than the druids? This still doesn't make them strong enough to be an interesting option to ally with, except if you play as Astarion. Because he is the only character for whom the alternative is worse. But for everyone else? The absolute cultists are blissfully unaware that they are just being used, and might end up as either food or mindflayers. As such, they don't even have valuable information on how to get rid of the tadpole before you end up same as them.

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