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hmmm isn't the sueing proces more expensive then the 50 bux you spent on the game? it's pretty weird to be sueing for a couple of broken skills..but oh well...


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Yaaj you are brilliant. Not only that, you are completely right. The box did indeed say 96 skills, and 2, that's right 2 skills aren't working. Not 1, but 2. This is definitely something you should be pounding money out of.

But why stop there? My new hairdryer didn't come with a "don't use to bash in your own skull" warning. And the applepie I bought earlier on didn't come with a "may contain apples" warning, even though I'm allergic to apples! Are these people trying to get me killed?

Well it's time to sue the nation, sue the world and sue the corporation, those idiots don't know what they're sayin'.

All hail America, land of the free! Free to chose between Wendy's and McDonalds! Free to say anything you want, unless you say bad things about America, in which case we'll call you un-patriotic, and hunt you down like the dog you are. Free to listen and watch TV programmes especially designed to brainwash and manipulate you so that you believe America is the best place in the world, and that you become braindead consumers for the benefit of the economy (i.e. the wallets of those corporate pigs)!

And if any of you non-American countries don't like it, we'll bomb you, and call you ragheads, gooks, communists or nazis.

Three freaking cheers for America!

*AHEM*

So anyway, go ahead. Get your $50 back. You crybaby.


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That was the funniest, coolest rant I've ever read Tovi!
I'm still laughing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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Sounds to me like someone is just a little bit jealous of Americans to me..could this really be true???Its funny you very seldom see people who want give up there US citizenship,but we always have our hands full with people wanting to live in the USA and become a citizen. I guess I am just part of the propaganda machine.Oh well,I will just come right out and say that your comments were very offensive to me. I did not see anything humorous about your rant,but you have the right to say them no matter how foolish and imature and untrue your statements.


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maybe it doesn't sound true to american, and pretty offensive...but i believe many people outside america will see the humor in it and some truth for that matter...


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Lord Fess, to be honest, there exists - at least in the German Forums I know about - some kind of subtle "anti-americanism", simply because American Publishers usually go after the rule "bigger, better, first". I don't like this policy.

My favourite examples are the handbook for Baldur's Gate, which was shortened for the German version, leaving the AD&D rules completely out, the Icewind Dale soundtrack that wasn't sold outside the US, the special edition of Pools of Radiance 2 , which was entirely different to the european special edition (and the european SE was only made after long consideration), crappy voices in games (worst : Crusaders of Might & Magic, where the Skeletons, which should be frightened, sound like a group of teenies meeting their idol for the first time), no translations at all (considering the fact that a game wouldn't have much success in the US while it completely stays in German and has only the handbook translated), and releasing games in the US first (like Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic, which was released in america first, even although the developers are from the Netherlands).

"Bigger, better, first". That's how it goes.

I try to be objective, but I cannot feel "right" about these examples.

And that's partly the reason why I'm so proud about German games - Gothic, Far Cry, Sacred ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Please just keep in mind that everything's about different cultures. We here in Germany shake the heads about many things we hear from the US, and vice versa.




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Sounds to me like someone is just a little bit jealous of Americans to me..could this really be true???Its funny you very seldom see people who want give up there US citizenship,but we always have our hands full with people wanting to live in the USA and become a citizen. I guess I am just part of the propaganda machine.Oh well,I will just come right out and say that your comments were very offensive to me. I did not see anything humorous about your rant,but you have the right to say them no matter how foolish and imature and untrue your statements.


Yeah well as an Englishman living in America I have a somewhat unique perspective on the issue. People are bashed for saying un-American things. You are made to feel an outcast or stupid because you simply cannot understand how some people can be so arrogant, naive and blind to events in the rest of the world.
Also I am jealous. Americans have access to more resources than almost the rest of the world put together AND they are squandering them. My uncle who is out in Indianna tells me they have dozens of capped oil wells there. Opec is making damn sure we bleed the rest of the world dry before they use the precious home reserves. God forbid they should switch to re-useable resources or have cars which are lean-burning.
Nope, we have 4L chevvy's and 12mpg here. Why? Because we can!

People want to live here because of the richness. Myself included. If the bubble bursts I'll be out of here though. Back to a place with a little culture. As long as it hasn't become the 51st state.........

Rant rant rant.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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Sounds to me like someone is just a little bit jealous of Americans to me..could this really be true???Its funny you very seldom see people who want give up there US citizenship,but we always have our hands full with people wanting to live in the USA and become a citizen. I guess I am just part of the propaganda machine.Oh well,I will just come right out and say that your comments were very offensive to me. I did not see anything humorous about your rant,but you have the right to say them no matter how foolish and imature and untrue your statements.


Yeah well as an Englishman living in America I have a somewhat unique perspective on the issue. People are bashed for saying un-American things. You are made to feel an outcast or stupid because you simply cannot understand how some people can be so arrogant, naive and blind to events in the rest of the world.
Also I am jealous. Americans have access to more resources than almost the rest of the world put together AND they are squandering them. My uncle who is out in Indianna tells me they have dozens of capped oil wells there. Opec is making damn sure we bleed the rest of the world dry before they use the precious home reserves. God forbid they should switch to re-useable resources or have cars which are lean-burning.
Nope, we have 4L chevvy's and 12mpg here. Why? Because we can!

People want to live here because of the richness. Myself included. If the bubble bursts I'll be out of here though. Back to a place with a little culture. As long as it hasn't become the 51st state.........

Rant rant rant.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gosh this is sooo strange.I have lived here all my life...and it seems to me that the hateful bashing and political correctness mindset crowd are made up of the
socalled liberal free thinkers who IMHO are a much more dominant mind controlling force in America today.They seem go to great lengths to alienate those that don't conform to the way they think the world ought to be.
This is a game forum and IMHO not a forum for political venting..soo this with
this statement I will not comment further.


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Oh of course.... That's who was telling me I couldn't wear my anti-war shirt. The liberal free thinkers. (actually it was my wife, who fears for me speaking my mind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />)
Don't brand me with that iron, ever. The so-called 'liberals' are just another brand of right-wing government. I can't ever imagine a socialist party starting over here. Still, communist ideals are long forgotten and almost every politician I see is only out to serve his own goals.
A government for the people, by the people? Balls.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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Well, I must admit that goes goes into politics now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

People are generally influenced by their culture(s) and culture influences (to a certain degree) their opinions.


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Okay, where to begin....

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You are complaining about bugs in Divinity, claiming the broken skills make the game unplayable, though the 2 broken ranged skills have no significant impact on that character type.


You're totally missing the point. If you'd stop being a blind fanboi for a second you'd realize that it doesn't matter if the six broken/bugged skills make the game unplayible or not. Now read this next statement very carefully; I bought the game off of the promise that there is "480 skill levels: 96 skills with 5 levels each 6 classes of characters" and with the game is in it's current state there's only 450 skill levels and 90 skills that work in the game; that's 60 skill levels and 6 skills less then promised.


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Next you say you've learnt you lesson and will never buy from 'amateur' developers.

Now, if you were not implying any kind of relationship between 'amateur' developers and bugs, then why would the latter teach you a lesson about avoiding the former?



It's been my experence when buying games from developers/publishers that are new to that gaming industry that their frist product will be bug-ridden, Divine Dininty is a perfect example, and that they'll fix a few of the bugs then move onto the next game while leaving first game bug-ridden.

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And i hate people that think they can sue everyone. (Are you American????)



Yes. The state I live in has two laws in the book to protect customers that are stuck with buggy products so they can get a refund IF the developer/publisher won't allow a refund.


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now wait a minute.

you would sue 50 dollers. 5, 0. 50. go all the way to Europe, thats more then 50.

and you'd sue. for 2 skills. 2 skills??? AND YOU WOULD SUE!?

2 friggen skills??? BWAH.

and, checks, it doesn't say WORKING.

doesn't promise they will work. just that they're in there.


As I have said; it doesn't not matter if it's one skill, or in this games case, six skills. And, no I won't have to goto Europe if I have to sue CDV for a refund since CDV is the USA puiblishers.

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yap, i can understand yaaj. its kind of frustrating buying a game, starting to play and lateron getting to realize that the version aint functioning the correct way. also your old savegames will be lost if you use the patches. very nice indeed

still i think the problem is not the developers but the marketing division. those people dont know what theyre doing. e.g. they want to sell their product before x-mas for all the nice presents meaning a lot of nice money....it doesnt matter at all if the developers tell them not to be ready yet. this is a f***** up marketing world.

still they are loosing the game, for only passionate players will buy such products. people who just want to play once or twice will stop buying any new games on the market for all the trouble this causes. at last we all end up waiting for games that are 2 years old and price reduced. which aint fair - the developers spend a lot of work in products like dd.


Thank you for understanding where I'm coming form. I don't put much of the blame on Larian Studios'. Odds are CDV wouldn't pay them the extra cash to work out the remaining bugs in their game. If CDV won't honor my state laws and provide me with a refund then yes I will file a suit against them.

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hmmm isn't the sueing proces more expensive then the 50 bux you spent on the game? it's pretty weird to be sueing for a couple of broken skills..but oh well...


If I have to sue CDV for a refund they'll also have to pay the court fees, not me. The only cost to me will be the 4 hours I'll have to invest to get my refund.

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Yaaj you are brilliant. Not only that, you are completely right. The box did indeed say 96 skills, and 2, that's right 2 skills aren't working. Not 1, but 2. This is definitely something you should be pounding money out of.

But why stop there? My new hairdryer didn't come with a "don't use to bash in your own skull" warning. And the applepie I bought earlier on didn't come with a "may contain apples" warning, even though I'm allergic to apples! Are these people trying to get me killed?

Well it's time to sue the nation, sue the world and sue the corporation, those idiots don't know what they're sayin'.

All hail America, land of the free! Free to chose between Wendy's and McDonalds! Free to say anything you want, unless you say bad things about America, in which case we'll call you un-patriotic, and hunt you down like the dog you are. Free to listen and watch TV programmes especially designed to brainwash and manipulate you so that you believe America is the best place in the world, and that you become braindead consumers for the benefit of the economy (i.e. the wallets of those corporate pigs)!

And if any of you non-American countries don't like it, we'll bomb you, and call you ragheads, gooks, communists or nazis.

Three freaking cheers for America!

*AHEM*

So anyway, go ahead. Get your $50 back. You crybaby.


You know I wasn't even going to bother to reply to this post since it has NOTHING to do with my oringal post. But, after reading it a few times I've gotten the impression that the poster is just jealous that I have more options to get a refund on buggy software then he does.

Any ways. Has PC gaming really gotten so bad that us, the customers, will just accept any buggy half-finished beta as a final product? I know I haven't.

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How about closing this thread with the words

SUUM CUIQUE <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />


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And i hate people that think they can sue everyone. (Are you American????)



Yes. The state I live in has two laws in the book to protect customers that are stuck with buggy products so they can get a refund IF the developer/publisher won't allow a refund.

Thank you for understanding where I'm coming form. I don't put much of the blame on Larian Studios'. Odds are CDV wouldn't pay them the extra cash to work out the remaining bugs in their game. If CDV won't honor my state laws and provide me with a refund then yes I will file a suit against them.


Well, we have such laws here in Germany, too.

The point is, when I want to get a refund from an american company, I don't think I'll ever get one.

Also, I'd have a problem with a lawsuit : Those who have the money for good lawyers always win.

I fear that this is the case in any country.

If I would try to make a lawsuit (right word ?) against EA, for example, it could take years and years, because they have the money and could simply wait until mine runs out.

If I make one against a *small* publisher it's more likely to get my money back.

But the worst thing is that we here in Germany get U.S. license instructions with software, although the companies should at least translate them and make them compatibble to German Law. But no, I've read so many software licenses where everything is not only in English, but applies to U.S. law, although the software is sold here in Germany, and therefore German Law must be applied.

I don't think I have a chance.


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You know I wasn't even going to bother to reply to this post since it has NOTHING to do with my oringal post. But, after reading it a few times I've gotten the impression that the poster is just jealous that I have more options to get a refund on buggy software then he does.



As I said above : I don't think that I'd have a chance.

Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 13/04/04 10:09 PM.

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It's rather offensive, Tovi, to both the people who are like those you're ranting about as well as those (such as myself) who would much rather not be associated with any of the American stereotypes such as fast food, television and mindless patriotism.

Yaaj, despite being in general rather rude, you're right about Tovi's rant. It has nothing to do with what you posted and has thrown the thread off-topic with anti-American vs. American crap. You want to rant about whatever problems you have with Americans, move it to the general chat area.

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Well, we have such laws here in Germany, too.

The point is, when I want to get a refund from an american company, I don't think I'll ever get one.

Also, I'd have a problem with a lawsuit : Those who have the money for good lawyers always win.

I fear that this is the case in any country.

If I would try to make a lawsuit (right word ?) against EA, for example, it could take years and years, because they have the money and could simply wait until mine runs out.

If I make one against a *small* publisher it's more likely to get my money back.

But the worst thing is that we here in Germany get U.S. license instructions with software, although the companies should at least translate them and make them compatibble to German Law. But no, I've read so many software licenses where everything is not only in English, but applies to U.S. law, although the software is sold here in Germany, and therefore German Law must be applied.

I don't think I have a chance.


That's not always the case. I ended up having to sue EA to get a refund on Ultima 9. The case itself took four months from the time I filed the suit until I went to court (once in count it only took two hours before the judge made a ruling), and since it was just for a refund for the game itself it was handled all in small clams. I don't know about other countries, but here in the USA there are no lawyers involved for small clam suits; well you can hire a lawyer but it'd just be a waste of money.

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As I said above : I don't think that I'd have a chance.


Ah, then excuse my ignorance.

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Sounds to me like someone is just a little bit jealous of Americans to me..could this really be true???Its funny you very seldom see people who want give up there US citizenship,but we always have our hands full with people wanting to live in the USA and become a citizen. I guess I am just part of the propaganda machine.Oh well,I will just come right out and say that your comments were very offensive to me. I did not see anything humorous about your rant,but you have the right to say them no matter how foolish and imature and untrue your statements.


Why would I be jealous of Americans? As far as I'm concerned, America is one of the last places I want to live. I remember I used to think America was a great place to be, and I wanted to live there when I grew up. Then I got history lessons in highschool... Americans keep speaking of freedom, and how great it is to live in America. Well they have to, cause that's all I hear. But then there's the slave thing, the communist witchhunt/McCarthy thingy, the black rights thing, major companies with underpaid workers in foreign countries (Nike), corruption, greed, War in Korea, War in Vietnam, More people killed by guns than anywhere else in the world... Jezus...

I guess the final straw was when America elected a C-student to be their leader. A C-student who bombs random countries for reasons like "they tried to kill my daddy", "axis of evil" or "I think they might have weapons of mass destruction". A C-student who caused a greater national defecit than 11 previous presidents combined. A C-student who gives away your rights and freedoms without your permission.

No, I much prefer Europe. We have pretty much the same freedoms and rights as you do (maybe even more with your new president and all), plus we have a much better hospital system.

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You know I wasn't even going to bother to reply to this post since it has NOTHING to do with my oringal post. But, after reading it a few times I've gotten the impression that the poster is just jealous that I have more options to get a refund on buggy software then he does.


My post is probably more relative to the topic than you think. In my personal opinion, your whole plan to sue CDV is absolutely ridiculous.

In Europe, I could do the same thing, but the judge would probably just laugh in my face. Duh. It simply makes sence, the whole thing is ludicrous.

However, knowing the American justice system (which grants stupid people 6 million dollars for burning their hands on a coffee they got from a McDonalds Drive-in), you'd probably win the case.

But that's not the point. the fact that you brought up "sueing" just made me angry. Angry about the typical American mentality which I'm firmly against for many reasons.


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My post is probably more relative to the topic than you think. In my personal opinion, your whole plan to sue CDV is absolutely ridiculous.

In Europe, I could do the same thing, but the judge would probably just laugh in my face. Duh. It simply makes sence, the whole thing is ludicrous.

However, knowing the American justice system (which grants stupid people 6 million dollars for burning their hands on a coffee they got from a McDonalds Drive-in), you'd probably win the case.

But that's not the point. the fact that you brought up "sueing" just made me angry. Angry about the typical American mentality which I'm firmly against for many reasons



Then you have no concept of getting what you paid for. And, if you'd bother read, and comprehend, anything I've said. I'm not your idea of what Americans are. I will not sue CDV for millons, for thousand, or even for hundreds of dollars. If they don't honor my local laws and provide a refund for a produect that doesn't work as advertised, then yes I will take them to court for the price I paid for the game. And you're right I will win the case, now read this very carefully, because the game doesn't work as advertised on the back of the box. Odds are tho CDV will just settle once they see that I am serious about getting a refund.

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But how can you even think of sueing someone over something as trivial, minor, and unimportant as this? Even if only for $50? So what happens if you win the case? Do you get $50 and do you return the game to CDV so you can buy another game and sue that company for $50 and so on and forth...?

You have got to relax! I have Divine Divinity aswell, and I payed as much as you did. And whilst I admit it has a few very minor flaws, it is still one of the best games I have ever played. Don't even think about calling me a fanboy, because before this game and it's demo, I hadn't even heard of Larian.

If I buy a DVD in America, and it says the DVD contains 150 minutes of film, while it actually only contains 149 minutes, and 12 seconds, does that mean I should sue the company for misleading advertisement? Even if it was a great movie?


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But how can you even think of sueing someone over something as trivial, minor, and unimportant as this? Even if only for $50? So what happens if you win the case? Do you get $50 and do you return the game to CDV so you can buy another game and sue that company for $50 and so on and forth...?


I think you have the wrong idea about me. No I don't sue a company for a refund for minor bugs. I'll only take someone to court if I have a valid reason to. FYI, here's a list of publishs I've filed suits in order to get a refund. If you know anything about these games then you'll see that each and everyone has been unplayible after being patched.

Ubi Soft for Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor - I had to file to suits. One for the refund of the game and another one for compensation of five months of work lost due to their product wiping my Hard Drive when I uninstalled it. Ubi Soft settled for the refund and the compay I work for took over the compensation suit, and in the end they won.

Atari for Temple of Elemental - They settled out of court and gave me a refund.

EA for Ultima 9 - I won the case and got a refund.

Seirra for Arcanum - They settled out of court and I got a refund.

Interplay for Lionheart - They settled out of court and gave me a refund.

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If I buy a DVD in America, and it says the DVD contains 150 minutes of film, while it actually only contains 149 minutes, and 12 seconds, does that mean I should sue the company for misleading advertisement? Even if it was a great movie?


I couldn't give you an honest answer, but I'd have to say no. Now if you were to buy a TV that advertised picture in picture and that didn't work foy you. After trying to get the store you bought the TV from to give you a refund, and the compay that makes the TV you bought, and if they both refused to refund you money then yes you have a vaild case.

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[color:"orange"]You're totally missing the point. If you'd stop being a blind fanboi for a second you'd realize that it doesn't matter if the six broken/bugged skills make the game unplayible or not.[/color]

Well obviously if I have any objections to your opinions I'd have to be a fanboy. I'm not sure why you were complaining about the game being unplayable if that doesn't matter.


[color:"orange"]"480 skill levels: 96 skills with 5 levels each 6 classes of characters"[/color]

Would you be fine with the broken skills if the back of the box said 'more than 90 skills', rather than specifying 96? Nobody is claiming bugs are good or irrelevant, but most also consider the relative impact the broken skill has, or doesn't, rather than just focusing on the fact it is broke. Hopefully there will be another patch to fix the 2 broken skills and eliminate remaining problems with other skills and the game in general.

Personally, with the quote from the back of the box, I have a much bigger problem with the claim of 6 classes than 96 skills. The Larian's site specifies 3 classes, with each being either male or female (since the only difference gender makes in the game is the voice and appearance). How the publisher's the marketing department turns that into 6 classes is beyond me.


[color:"orange"]It's been my experence when buying games from developers/publishers that are new to that gaming industry that their frist product will be bug-ridden[/color]

I've had more problems with software from larger companies than smaller.

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