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#231558 12/05/04 12:36 PM
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I've been waiting on restarting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> until the next patch comes out and fixes the inventory, weight, etc. Sacred's been on my drive for a while, so I gave it a whirl.

Really, there's no comparison--and all references to the two being similar are so far off the mark as to lead me to wonder who has played both. Sacred's got beautiful graphics, but they're completely non-interactive. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> is by contrast the most interactive CRPG in years, with lots of things in the world that you can use, take, touch, move, douse, etc. Sacred's towns look strikingly unique, but each is identical beneath the surface with only three truly unique inhabitants (blacksmith, combo arts master, merchant). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> has unique people in each area, and its merchants do not offer identical merchandise. Sacred's quests are standard and routine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> has quests that are frequently unique, or part of a unique, overarching narrative. Sacred's NPC dialog is generic. The dialog in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> is highly flavored, and many NPCs are memorable. Sacred doesn't let you see or control the inventory of your party members. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> does. Most importantly, Sacred is an action game, like Diablo. It is a twitch title. It runs, not a computer, but on adrenalin. You can't pause it to consider what's needed in your inventory, or which of eight spells you've learned is best to cast, or where to move your party members. In <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> you can do all this.

Sure, there are similarities. Both use Diablo's system of embedded magical jewels in weapons, armor, etc. Both have randomly generated items. Both are considerably more interesting than Diablo in the skills and spells they offer. But I think the differences outweigh the similarities. Sacred will be for a bit. But I hope Larian rebalances <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> soon, and gets the remaining bugs under control. I'm really looking forward to returning to it.

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Good points. Remember that these games are improvements on Diablo and D2 however. I think Blizzard should be recognised for using these ideas first in their games and making the action/RPG a very enjoyable category of games.

At least I think Blizzard were the first to do this. If not then disregard this post entirely. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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I agree with the IGN reviewer, that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> is really a lot like Ultima 7, while the Battlefields are more Diablo-like. But then, Ultima 7 is one of my all-time faves. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The action/RPG was much older than Diablo. I remember playing one as far back as 1982, though I couldn't tell you the name. An old SSI game from 1986 added random item drops, too. What Diablo had were randomized dungeons, fantastic graphics (for the time), and a lack of competition for a few years so it could claim to be the first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

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I bow to your greater knowledge sir.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
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The 80's were a great time for RPG's. The graphics didn't have to be fancy only running on mostly 16K. The story lines were always what pulled me in. SSI before their demise had some great titles. The Ultima series I played for years until time no longer allowed me to do so. Unfortuneately I never got to play Ultima past 6. I would sure like to play them if only someone would upgrade them a bit and allow them to play on todays computers.
I had an Apple 2 back then. You could adjust the drive speed with a program. If I remember right the really good drives had quartz in them and retained the proper speed longer.
Even today I would gladly sacrifce graphics for a game with a great story line. The first Wizardry games had minimal graphics and could be played until the wee hours of the mornings making work more difficult. I couldn't wait to get home to get back into the game again. Having to make a map on grid paper only added to the fun. Those lousy spinners, I never did know which direction I was facing when I stopped. All part of a great game. An era long past like the Golden days of T.V.
Today game makers seem to rely on graphics more than anything. Thinking if it looks pretty we will buy it no matter how bad the game play is. I no longer run out to buy new games by developers I haven't played before until I read some reviews. Money is the only power we have as consumers. I for one have bought enough unfinished games that I didn't like after playing for a few hours.
I really enjoy the Divinity games. The graphics set the atmosphere, the music is haunting, the controls easy to use without thinking about them. This is why I keep buying them and will continue to do so.


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You can get ultima 7 & 8 to run on XP...

Check out:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~rsd/

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You can get ultima 7 & 8 to run on XP...


I know. Exult works. Used it briefly about 4 months ago, but had too much else to do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Some great nostalgia. There are moments in some of the older games that will never be surpassed or duplicated IMHO. One such moment was entering the Tomb of Varn (the enormous pyramid) in Might & Magic VI. When the pleasant, but eerie soundtrack began you could feel the adrenaline rush into your bloodstream, and you knew you were hooked on RPG's.

When people talk about RPG's they go back to the days of Wizardry, Might & Magic, Ultima, etc. But there were memorable RPG's before that. Who can forget the Infocom games (Zork series)? or who remembers playing probably the original RPG that began with something like:

"Come with me to Colossal Cave where magic abounds and treasures are found. Bid your fingers follow your commands and I will be your eyes and hands. Yet beware the fiery Dragon, for he knows not whether you are wizard or simple Charlatan! How best to conquer Colossal Cave? With daring and skill...oh clever knave."

Those were text-only games, and Colossal Caves I first played, at the risk of the wrath of my professor, on a DEC-7 computer in college.

<looks at watch>... now where is that patch anyways.

Last edited by Grim; 12/05/04 04:26 PM.
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Even today I would gladly sacrifce graphics for a game with a great story line. The first Wizardry games had minimal graphics and could be played until the wee hours of the mornings making work more difficult. I couldn't wait to get home to get back into the game again. Having to make a map on grid paper only added to the fun. Those lousy spinners, I never did know which direction I was facing when I stopped. All part of a great game. An era long past like the Golden days of T.V.



Ahhh, Wizardry! Such sweet memories of my induction into a most enjoyable addiction to video/computer games. I remember staying up late into the night to finish exploring one dungeon level (getting slaughtered or teleported numerous times) while drafting a map of that dungeon using only paper and pencil. Those were wonderful days of gaming. The games today are good, it's just that they are very different.

I have the whole Wizardry set that includes every single game to Wizardry 8 (I think that was the last game that was released, although I could be wrong).

Thanks for taking me down memory lane. Such a great diversion from the daily grind. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />


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Wizardry! Remember Wizardry IV, The Return of Werdna, where you play the bad guy you'd defeated before? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> And yes, the Infocom games were great. I still have one or two hanging about in their original boxes, though most are now in latterday incarnations.

Colossal Cave was one of the first games I ever played on a computer. Along with Hammurabi (Think again, Hammurabi!).

But back to Sacred... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

It's gotten 12 bug fixes--6 big, 6 minor--and it's still buggy, with messed up random quests and a sometimes-update map. I was also annoyed to discover that my supposedly perma-tag added to the map vanished when I left it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

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I tired the url but it came up that it couldn't be found. Is it only up at certain hours?


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Too bad 3DO went out of business. The latter M&M games just never kept up to the competition. I never thought of the Infocom games as RPG's but as adventure games. I did play and like them. I think a group out of MIT made them. They sure kept me up at nights trying to figure them out. That ole nasty Grue was always trying to get me.


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3DO killed Might and Magic, but it really has to be laid at the door of Jon van Caneghem. Like Richard Gariott over at Origin Systems, van Caneghem wanted extra capital to develop ever larger, more complex games. Turning to 3DO was a lot like turning to EA, in that respect: you got the money, along with the need to produce hits and a whole raft of VPs who made decisions for you. I've been given to understand that 3DO's CEO forced M&M VIII out the door early, and gave M&M IX to a team of his own choosing that had never been involved with New World Computing before. Be that as it may, M&M IX was pretty bad--good only in its combat AI, really. The rest wasn't a patch on the older titles, particularly M&M III, IV/V, and VII.

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I have heard some rumours that based on the unexpected success of Wizardry 8 that Sir-Tech Canada may begin work on Wizardry 9...

Nothing official yet, but sounded kind of promising!

Still got my original Wizardry I, II and III on 5 1/4 inch floppies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Though I bought the archive CD too...

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I don't want to get started on 3DO or EA, it seems like their idea of a quest is figuring out how to destroy companies like New World Computing and Origin. Just my opinion, but the history is there.

Since UbiSoft bought the rights to Might & Magic and Heroes of Might & Magic there is always hope that they will resurface again.

I certainly hope SirTech is able to continue the Wizardry series, we can only hope <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Sir-Tech has been very positive on Wizardry 9 over the last year, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were already working on it--remember, they're now a very small company, and any project is going to take quite a while. Thus far, there have been no official announcements.

As for Might and Magic, the purchsae of the brand's rights by UbiSoft is not exactly the best of news. I'd much rather hear that van Caneghem was once again at the helm, though his team clearly needed help with ideas towards the end. UbiSoft will simply farm out the brand; and whether they select a reasonable developer or not will depend upon some in-house VP and a budgeting office. Just the very people you want to make game decisions, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

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Some great nostalgia. There are moments in some of the older games that will never be surpassed or duplicated IMHO. One such moment was entering the Tomb of Varn (the enormous pyramid) in Might & Magic VI. When the pleasant, but eerie soundtrack began you could feel the adrenaline rush into your bloodstream, and you knew you were hooked on RPG's.

When people talk about RPG's they go back to the days of Wizardry, Might & Magic, Ultima, etc. But there were memorable RPG's before that. Who can forget the Infocom games (Zork series)? or who remembers playing probably the original RPG that began with something like:

"Come with me to Colossal Cave where magic abounds and treasures are found. Bid your fingers follow your commands and I will be your eyes and hands. Yet beware the fiery Dragon, for he knows not whether you are wizard or simple Charlatan! How best to conquer Colossal Cave? With daring and skill...oh clever knave."

Those were text-only games, and Colossal Caves I first played, at the risk of the wrath of my professor, on a DEC-7 computer in college.

<looks at watch>... now where is that patch anyways.



Ah, yes... Colossal Cave by Crowther and Woods! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" /> I still get warm fuzzies when I flash back to words like, plover, XYZZY and the ever popular, yet annoying, 'You're in a maze ...". *Dabs tissue at mist filled eyes* *sniff* Yes, those were the days when the only graphics that were created came from your imagination. In fact, I love interactive fiction (IF) so much that I am creating a series of fantasy/adventure games for a publisher in the UK. And I know this is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> but I think IF has potential that hasn't even been exploited yet. It hasn't found its legs in the market. For those kids who have reading disabilities or plain don't like reading, I have found that IF is a way to spark their interest and open up a whole new world.

Anyway, back to the discussion. I still have Zork, all of the Might & Magic games, and yes, Fable -- I remember Werdna! One fantastic game. [As you might guess, my gaming library is HUGE since I save every single game.] But Wizardry (the first one) will always remain special in my memory. There was nothing more frustrating than creating the dungeon map only to be teleported to an unknown area. Gosh! Those were hair-pullers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Which is why I'm probably drawn to games that have more substance than hack 'n slash.

Anyone remember the old King's Quest series by Roberta Williams? (Yes, I still have that series in my library.) Oh! Btw, you can still download those old Infocom games from the IF Archive. So, if you're feeling "Zork-ish", it's in there!


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" /> *Thanks for the memories, Grim, Duncan, Fable and anyone else whose name I forgot* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


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Anyone remember the old King's Quest series by Roberta Williams? (Yes, I still have that series in my library.) Oh! Btw, you can still download those old Infocom games from the IF Archive. So, if you're feeling "Zork-ish", it's in there.

Another excellent site for IF games, Faralas, is Home of the Underdogs. It takes a while to load, but it has a large selection, including recent releases.

As for King's Quest, I never much cared for it. Now, Hero's Quest...! There was a fine series. I really liked that--and of course, the Monkey Island series, though these started later.

Do you remember Hidden Agenda? That was one of my all-time favorite strategy titles. I've been in correspondence with Jim Gasperini, the author, who offers the old program here.

The Magic Candle series--does anybody recall that? The Atabek brothers came up with some delightfully original ideas, even though they mixed in standard AD&D style elves, dwarves, etc. And Darklands! Now, that was an innovative title. Too bad nobody has grabbed that franchise yet, and decided to do an updating of it.

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Fabulous thread.

Speaking of Wizardry IV, I worked for Sir-Tech on that game as the principal tester and Wizardry V. I took a hiatus as an attorney to enter rpg gaming. If you remember, and pardon the self-promotion, there was a Memorial Fountain named after me on an upper level.

My favorite classic games. Number 1 is Ultima IV for its time (1984, I believe), the most addictive game ever. I took a 2-week vacation to play the game, and just barely finished. Number 2 is Wasteland, a game I replayed recently now that it's abandonware or freeware. The third is another Ultima, II, the first game to cost $50, as I recall. Remember New San Antonio? Flying in space? Certainly the first couple of Wizardry's. Another nostalgic tidbit: The original Wizardry was called Dungeon of Doom and there was no ability to save. Finally, as to frantic rpg moments, was there anything better than having to traipse through the upper dungeon levels in Wizardry, low on hit points, no potions or spells, and just 3 steps from the castle where you could save, there was always an encounter. Talk about sweaty palms. And, that was a game with wireframe graphics, no less.

Colossal Cave. Ah, The Original Adventure. I remember playing the longer 550-point version. You may or may not know that Crowther or Woods, I forgot which of the creators, was a real spelunker and the game environment is patterned after a cave in Kentucky.

As for Sacred, I was one of the fortunate ones who was able to play it through.
I recently closed a high-mark review of the game with the following sentence:

"Nevertheless, given some of the technical problems afflicting some users, I would not purchase Sacred unless I had at least the recommended system levels. I also would avoid that initial patch (1.5), especially if multiplayer is your thing. This is not a guarantee, just a suggestion duplicating my experience."

Thanks all for the nostalgia.


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i think this thread should be elsewhere other than in the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> section.

nevertheless, it's wonderful to see very warm & friendly conversations among members & made better by the friendliness of the members themselves. glad to have all of u here in this forum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

sorry for being <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />



......a gift from LaFille......
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