Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General BD vs Diablo 2 vs NWN vs planescape torment

here's my assessment after playing a diablo 2 100% (once) b planescape torment 75% c NWN two acts d beyond divinity Act 1 only Hero-Mage Luck: 76, unused 4 skillpoints, 16 attribute points DK-Warrior unused: 8 skillpoints, 16 attribute points thx to the luck have gotten loads of cool stuff including orange weapons with three chram slots and lucky cap/skull reward - luck +12. #1 Planescape 97.5 easily the best rpg ever made #2 tie between diablo 2 (90) and beyond divinity (89) a polish/finish - diablo 2 was much more polished b gameplay - was excellent in both though liked the playability of beyond divinity a little more. in particular, loved absolutely the concept of being able to get back skillpoints c stories/quests were less congruent in diablo 2 and the action was a little too repetitive. which haven't felt so far in BD (perhaps 'cos of level 6 sharpen skill) main knocks on diablo 2: repetitive quests, skill points - v.hard irreversible decisions. main knocks on BD - a lack of polish, not enough juice in the quests (and random battlefield quests should NEVER be repeated across acts - didn't i kill the freakin hellkin in act 1 - who the heck is this hellkin ? his twin freakin brother) #4 NWN this game's single player sucked. never played multiplayer (couldn't care less) in direct contrast to Planescape torment where the world felt unbelievably rich, here my character was screaming for mercy - please let me commit suicide before i have to kill another wolf for some [nocando] farmer and help his son score with a chic (is that why i got my +strength + intelligence super rare sword ? shouldn't they be on sims-livin' large or some dumb game like that) due to my rpg-addiction struggled through to the luskan tower only to find a total lack of story/motivation to climb the level and fight dumb-[nocando] wizards. Direct Contrast: Samuel rocks - especially the demons constantly regenerate theory AND the summoned away. that is so better than - oh, the superboss you killed was revived by DNA transfusion also known as Resustication Spell Level 6. AND his dna melded with Mr T and Conan and Rambo to increase his strength and a bucket load of other attributes BEYOND DIVINITY ROCKS Overall verdict: the raw gameplay and strong storyline (DK-Hero co-dependency and one dies=> both dies) really makes BD an awesome game. it's slightly lower than Planescape, Chronotrigger, ff6 etc. i.e. doesn't really make it to Top 10-20 RPGs ever. However, with a little focus on 1) storyline/richness 2) balanced and challenging gameplay 3) some more cool charm/skills stuff divinity 3 could challenge for a position. and BD is definitely better than NWN and the new 3-D rpgs which mostly suck. and it's on par with diablo and diablo2 - most definitely. great job guys - thx for the sleep deprivation and more importantly for the hope that i don't have to live the rest of my life wishing i'd not sated myself with planescape torment. i.e. your next game can touch that level.

thanx for your assasment however i disagree with several things.

#1 you say that planescape torment is the best rpg there is ever made. i also played planescape torment and i think it's a very original game if you look at the story and sidequest. on the other hand it was just a game with exactly the same format as all the other bioware game's such as baldurs gate 1, 2 and expansins, icewind dale and expansion, neverwinternights and the resently knights of the old republic. so the gameplay wasn't very original. but the gameplay works very good and gameplay only doesn't make the game.

planscape torment had an very original story and sidequest. the game sucked you in the world and everywhere was something to do.

unfortunaly planescape torment had a lot of bugs. becouse of these bug's i have never finished the game. and i think others had those problems too. all by all i can't imagine that planescape torment is the best rpg ever.

#1a. you can't compare planescape torment with beyond divinity. these games are too much different to make any comparision. planescape torment is focused on the story and quest. it isn't focused on hack and slash. in beyond divinity it's more hack and slash then story. (some may disagree) also the gameplay is very different. character developement is different.

#2 if you wan't to compare beyond divinity to another game you have to choose diablo 2. diablo was the mother of hack and slash and i think that by developing DD and BD the developers took much idea's from that game. but the developers didn't want to make DD and BD another diablo clone.

#2a your comperision between BD and Diablo 2 doesn't cut wood. you don't use any arguments.

#2b my comparision between diablo 2 and beyond divinity.

a gameplay
diablo 2 has great gamplay. I only played diablo in singleplayer but i think i played diablo more than 200 hours. Its great to test out all the characters and thier different skills. the characters were balanced very good en had a lot of skills. however diablo 2 is pure hack and slash it doesn't get bored very fast. you keep motivated to go on.

beyond divinity has also some great gameplay however it isn't as great as diablo's gameplay. it work's not as intuitice as diablo and some essential things are different or even missing. in diablo you can go back to get a fiw levels in a less hard area. divine divinity adds the battlefield for this. however the battlefields are boring. also diablo uses teleporters and you can visit all maps again and again. the last points missing in Beyond divinity are the possibility to save your character and start anew and the multiplayer option. positive points are the much more varying gameplay. you can move items, you can sneak, you have teleporter piramids, summoning dolls, algemie and a party.

gameplay diablo2 9 beyond divinity 8

b story
what is an rpg without a good story. the story's in diablo 2 and in beyond divinity are both great diablo uses (for that time) some great movie's to tell the story. also the quest are great. but diablo hasn't much quests. 6 per chapter. most of them are get that item, get there or kill that monster. the quests aren't that great and you only do the quests because you have to. who doesn't hate the karims will quest.
beyond divinity has also a great story, however there are no spectacular movies that tells it. the quests are much more diverse as in diablo and there are much more quests. one big POSITIVE point in beyond divinity. HUMOR. beyond divinity contains a lot of humor. i like that.

story diablo2 8.5 beyond divinity 9.5

c design
the disign of diablo 2 is very bad. diablo uses an engine that creates e new random map every time you play multiplayer or change difficulty in singleplayer. this is used to provide a new maps every time. but these maps are boring. you play diablo only for one thing. items and leveling to create the best character.
the design of beyond divinity is much better. only the battlefields suck but for the rest it's allright. there is a lot of variety and much interresting things to see. all area's are original.

design diablo2 7 beyond divinity 9

d graphics

both game's haven't got very modern graphics. and i also take in mind that diablo 2 is way older. i think the graphics in diablo 2 were better for that time then those of beyond divinity in these day's. i don't go in this deeper (youre free)

graphics diablo2 8.5 beyond divinity 7.5
graphics now diablo2 6 beyond divinity 7.5
e music

both game's have great music. .i like the voice acting in beyond devinity.

music diablo2 8.5 divine divinity 9

polishing.
i think that beyond divinity wasný polished enough when it was launched. it contained just as divine divinity too much bugs and some things had to be balanced first. however with the new patches most of these problems have been solved. also beyond divinity is a much more complex game as diablo 2 so it take's more time for finetuning. i like the game as it now is and i think the balance's are very good.
diablo however has great balance's between the different characters something i miss in beyond divinity.

polishing diablo2 9 beyond divinity 8

conclusion.
beyond divinity and diablo 2 are two great games. it's more about taste wich game you prefere above the other. the quality of both games is very good and they are both games i should advise to other players

#4 neverwinternights doesn't suck
who told you that this game sucks? i have played it for over 60 hours and i had much fun. resently i bought hordes of the underdark and i am going to test this game out.
if you think these quest sucks you didn't play the game for more than 2 hours. there were some great quests. the gameplay is based on the same system as your favorite planescape torment. and graphics and music were great for that time. try to compare it with dungeon siege that lack's gameplay, quests and rich world

#5
However, with a little focus on
1) storyline/richness
2) balanced and challenging gameplay
3) some more cool charm/skills stuff

divinity 3 could challenge for a position

youre totaly right in this.

Many people think the NWN OC is a travesty; I'm one of them. Let the guy have his own opinion, hmm?



And many repetitive ones, not to mention the primary "fetch four pieces of this, fetch four pieces of that" that essentially make up each chapter. You also forget the awful henchman AI, the predictable "plot twist", etc.



Er, no. PS:T uses 2nd edition AD&D (and breaks rules left and right); NWN uses an adapted form of 3rd edition D&D.

youre right. everyone may havbe his own opinion. by the way it has been a long time i last played neverwinternights so i don't remember everyting. I don't want to flame others



there are some minor difference between the rules used but both of the games use ad&d rules character building and the items used do not differ that much. the thing i was pointing at is that there are not that much gameplay differences. however the game's are different

Switch11...

Having completed all four games you mention, I agree with you entirely.

I have finished all of them as well. Ranking them in order:

1) Diablo2
2) BD
3) Planescape
4) NWN

I'll have to say that NWN is ok...not that great though. All the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale games were MUCH better. Personally I like DD + BD better than Plaescape? Why? I just like more action.

1.) Apples
2.) Oranges
3.) Bananas
4.) ...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I think Neverwinter Nights' big plus point for me was, certainly at the time, I felt it was the complete RPG package. It had single player, multiplayer, a fairly easy to use editor (and mods have become so important in prolonging the life of RPGs) and a DM client to return to some of the 'feel' of traditional P&P RPGs. Now the engine looks rather dated and raggy round the edges and it's interesting to see in The Witcher what the engine looks like without the tiling in place.

PST I loved, and that's probably my favourite RPG, just because of the way it fleshed out all the characters and the immersive world. Having said that, I lost a lot of sleep to Diablo 2 and that game always hits a certain sweet spot than no other game has done in exactly the same way.

I must utterly disagree with the comment that PST used AD&D rules. It broke almost every rule to improve the game. Can't die. Stat gain each time you level. Change class at choice once you learn the basics of a class. Armour, no such thing. Alignment changes to match your actions. Several spells work differently to the standard rules. Non standard team NPCs that had many unique abilities. Able to modify your teams basic stats if you can work out how. Other than using The basic Strength, Agility, Constitution stats which most games use anyway it had nothing in common with other AD&D stuff.

Anyway NWN MP gamedesign put me off so I've never played it. Also since PST is a very different game I wouldn't group it either. I'd suggest

1) IceWind Dale 2 (I never played IWD1)
2) Divine Divinity
3) Diablo 2
4) Beyond Divinity

ROLF, Nemisis_Dragon... so true <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Comparing any game to any other game comes down to personal preferences, but for each of us that is what really matters now isn't it.

Just for grins here are my personal preferences:


Best story: Planescape: Torment AND Divine Divinity (tie)

Best Music: Might & Magic VI (in the Temple of Varn)

Best endgame battle: Diablo II (the Baal battle was amazing)

Best Expansion: NWN - Hordes of the Underdark

Best quest system: Beyond Divinity

Most addictive Game: Diablo II

Best NPC companion: NWN (Deekin) AND Wizardry 8 (Private Sparkle) (tie)

Best Character Development System: Divine Divinity

Best Skills: Might & Magic (flying) AND Diablo II (being able to cast your pets where you really need them to be)

Best RPG: Might & Magic 6,7,8 AND NWN - Hordes of the Underdark AND Divine Divinity AND Beyond Divinity (big tie)

Most buggy and unplayable game ever: Ultima IX

Worst Dialogue: Might & Magic IX

Worst user interface: Beyond Divinity (and I really hate to say that)

Worst character upgrading system: Beyond Divinity (and again I really hate to say that because I love this game)

Most anticipated new Game: Divinity 2 AND Might & Magic X (come on UbiSoft, do it!!!) (tie)


But these are only my preferences and probably no one elses, I can live with that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Torment and Icewind Dale were done by Black Isle, not Bioware, and apart from the Infinity engine I found them to be very different in style from Bioware's games.



With the patch Torment is virtually bug-free and a joy to play.

Yeah, this is a weird bunch of games to compare. Other than being RPGs (to varying degrees), these games are pretty dissimilar.

In any event, if I had to rank the four games (admittedly I have not finished BD or NWN) it would be:

1. Planescape: Torment
2. Diablo 2
3. Beyond Divinity
3. Neverwinter Nights (tie)

There's a huge gap between numbers 1 and 2; likewise with 2 and 3.

The only thing I have to add, is that while the NWN OC was mediocre at best, playing some of the mods online with a group of friends from all over the world once a week, is an incredible experience. If only for that, NWN was an awesome product. PS-T is still the best ever RPG though!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

nwn nights doesn't suck. it's not very good, but it doesn't suck either. and with the hordes of the underdark expansion, it just totally blows the original campaign away. lvl 40 max , new prestige classes, a host of new feats & abilities, etc. it has a lot going for it. god, have you seen a high-level prestige monk in action? he moves so damn fast, attacks so damn fast, while fighting unarmed. it's not even funny. i've played a dwarven defender, champion of torm, shifter and a host of other builds on the hotu campaign. and i must say i had a really great time. and to think i don't have any experience in pnp d&d nor am i too familiar w/ the d&d rules.

the hotu expansion just prolonged the replayability of nwn by a mile. have you taken a look at the hotu forums on bioware's site? it's bustling w/ activity, proof of the game's popularity. what we discuss here comparing several rpg games isn't as important as the actual sales of each game. that is the ultimate arbiter of how well a game is doing.

but still, the baldur's gate series is still the best rpg there is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

p.s. w/ the upcoming releases of rpg's like jade empire on the xbox & dragon age on the pc, i believe bioware will be a fierce competitor in the rpg market.

Boycotted Diablo 2, due to what I considered a very sexistic approach in Diablo 1. (See, Ben? Where's forgiving Kiya now? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> )

Played NWN in single + finished - liked it, bought the first add-on and then I lost the verve to continue (again, no clue why... being tied to a game is an emotional issue in my case.) Will not buy 2nd add-on.
Played Planescape several times - never finished it and I have NO clue, why I lost fun in playing it => had a wonderful world, nice quests, the BG system I adored. I think, it was too sinister for me and I couldn't develop emotions for any char there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> - same for Arcanum, though I know what put me off (mix of Victorian ambiente, magic and conventional modern weapons - not my taste)

Despite loathing IWD 1 (too action oriented for my taste) I played and liked IWD 2.

My first and strongest love was Ultima 7 (all later ones very disappointing for me) - so, Divine Divinity was like coming home after endless years of "exile". (Emotions have their own rules... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> )

BD is the 2nd out of the Div series => and I like it, taken as a game of its own. I still have not found out all answers to my inner questions and details - but... I MISS my female mage from Div <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> - I'm a 2D fan - never found a game in 3D as appealing as 2D (yes, I know, my view is outdated)

So, best game ever and even comparing it to others? No, I can't and I won't. I have found the following out during my gaming yrs => if I compare and rank, I deprive myself of fully experiencing the one I'm playing, because one part of me keeps mourning for the other one. That's just me => subjective point of view.
Kiya

One of my all time favourites is Wizardry 8. Just about every thing in the game was well done.

Also love Morrowind with the expansions, but haven't touched in a while so will have to go back to it eventually.

Diablo 2
I was hooked on it for ages, and never even played it online. Eventually grew tired of as my character approched level 50. Will never play it again.

NWN
I liked it in the beginning but eventually it wained on me. Never finished it. Never will.

Divine Divinity
One of the few games to hold me to the end. I never generally never replay a game so I haven't beat it more than once.

PS:T
Great story and interesting characters. I never finished it though. Got bored eventually.

TOEE
Playing this at the moment and though I generally dislike the new rules of D&D based games I find the combat in this game excellent. The best tactical combat engine I've seen lately.

Icewind dales and Baldurs gates
BGs great RPGs, IDs good hack n' slash...over all I never finished any of them. Got bored.

Beyond Divinity
It's a game I will finish...it's got enough of the DD in it to keep my interest. Wish it was faster though. Characters seem to run in slow-mo! Dislike the skill system. Well into act 3 now and I've never had to use a skill in combat with a right click. No point in even buying most of them.

one big point I just have to make is that no game, and I mean NO game, ever came close to Diablo IIs item system... remember the exceptional and elite unique items and the thrill of getting any of them? remember the terrific rares and the incredible sets? (the ones that came with LoD, not the crappy standard ones...)

No game ever came close to that, even though many have tried, and apart from the atmosphere, I think those were what made DII so incredible...

Hm, have you ever played Anvil of Dawn? Yes, I know it's very old, but the sets there were nice, too. The first time I encountered this set idea BTW - but is this what makes out an RPG?
Kiya

Well, Darkstone was out before D2 and it had exceptional and elite items, and these items actually made you look better. In D2 it wasnt so exciting to get exceptional or elite items because they looked exactly like the older ones.

Back on topic, I like all these games, and I can't rate 'em because I belive games are either good or bad, and none of those mentioned here were bad. I dont think any of them is better than the other, just different.

games made with originals in mind may improve in execution & efficiency but can never attain the original flavour & passion as well as soul of the orginal.

dungeon siege was made with diablo in mind & of course, with improvements. what was really lacking was the passion gamers have when playing the diablo series. all the technical wizardry & advancements are there but no soul. *shrugs*

back to NWN (pet or hate), kiya, i feel the 3rd add-on is the best so far, with the original campaign being the worst of the three. of course, i'm talking about the single-player bit. i'm sorry i cannot be objective on why it's better. it just plays better & i for the first time really enjoy NWN when playing the 3rd add-on. plus, i love deekin, the kobold bard/dragon disciple henchman (or henchlizard). i haven't got my copy of BD so i cannot find out yet who's my fav sidekick. deekin reminds of my kitten; he can try his darnest to be annoying but can't help being cute.

as for other RPGs (are we talking strictly fantasy/medieval RPGs?), i like the fallout SPECIAL system best. classless, like Divinity series, & open-ended.

i have to admit, more than diablo series, i prefer Nox from westwood studios (bless them). it's fun, frantic enough, & not insanely difficult that it puts me off in frustration. it's one of a few games that i keep re-playing. especially if u have the free-addon NoxQuest.

other than that, my experience in RPGs are very very limited. Nox was my first, then diablo 2, then the rest. i'm a RTS gamer who realised that he's a dormant RPG gamer.

don't forget; freedom force!