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#245154 10/06/04 01:56 PM
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Greetings Kiya

Having written my fair share of commercial software myself, for other companies. We sold licences to use our stuff. The user pays for licence to use our product (Licence Agreement <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />), the disc it is on is of no importance, and has nothing to do with the licence. As the licence doesn't degrade in any way, through the passage of time, the customers where concerned that if they became heavily dependant on our products, and we became bankrupt, they would have no support, and cause immense problems for their business.

So you see, the thing you pay for isn't a disc, it's a licence to use the stuff on the disc. And this is more often than not, a lifetime offer of use. However, if companies only want you to use their products for a year or two, the licence should reflect this.

I see your point, and I uderstand the need to elimate piracy, but this isn't the way. Back in the old days, we had manual proections (3rd page, line 2, word 6) which still enabled user to back up their stuff. We have CD keys too. Disc protection isn't the way, and it's unfair to the legitimate users who have a lifetime licence to use the product they bought.

Will no one stand with me on this?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />




Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
#245155 10/06/04 02:10 PM
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<sigh> lifetime use? and what about hardware OS changes then making it impossible for me to play a game? I understand the license stuff - but it is still transported on hardware - a CD.

May I take paper? A book? If my cat destroys it or if I take it into my tub or even if I treat it carefully and it starts to fall apart after a few years, because the gum (paperback) has dried up - or even if everything is designed for life time but the paper starts to crumble, printing withers => can I demand it after guarantee limit has perished? Ok, you could say => I'll make a copy of this book (would be illegal, because according to my laws, more than 20% copy is prohibited). But this one will have a limited life span, too.

Am I comparing apples with pears now?

I stand by you - but I can't support what you'd like, as long as this license is tied to a CD, the "transporter" (sorry, know no other word, hope, you understand what I mean). and I'm only talking about games now, ok? As it goes for business programs => we pay a yearly fee for our library system, including updates, patches etc. But a game has only a one-time price.

#245156 10/06/04 02:26 PM
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The medium which you purchase your software on is in no way linked to the licence. Forget about discs, tapes hard drives and the rest, they have nothing to do with it.

When you click "I Agree" to a licence, you should take the time to read it. You are purchasing runtime code, and the right to run it. Nothing more, nothing less.

The same laws that govern business, governs the games industry too. What applies to one, apllies to the other regarding laws. Only licences that are renewable are subject subscription, something which has little to do with most games. What you have to remember, is that your not purchasing a disc.

And as for the library, you are subscribing to a service, not purchasing it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I'm on my own on this, arn't I? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />



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#245157 10/06/04 03:34 PM
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I'm on my own on this, arn't I? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />


I fear so. Not that I am against what you are saying, in the countrary, I would be happy if it was as easy as you say.
But the laws forbid copying (not that I give a dog biscuit anyway [i didn't say that :P]). I would say that the EULA usually applies on CDs themselves, at least as games go. Have you ever read console games licenses? You cannot copy a console game without having a modchip/modchip alternative so whatever they say about backups, it's just to fill up the paper.

#245158 11/06/04 03:06 AM
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I agree with xAcesx that We are paying primarily for a software license, and to a much lesser extent, the media it comes on. Part of the software is the copy protection. The only way to remove the copy protection is to illegally modify the software (as stated int he EULA). It's a bit extreme, but if we decide that the copy protection on the software we're using is optional, what's to stop us deciding that the copyright is necessary either, after all it's just another clause in the EULA?

Kiya, regarding your "book falling apart" analogy, that is an excelent point! Just as a side-note, some book companies actually produce poor quality glue so that you have to replace the books and they can continue to make sales. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

#245159 11/06/04 05:25 AM
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if we can bend things to our advantages, we would. if it soothes our ego or kill our guilt, we would do it.

xAcesx, i do agree with u on a personal level as i would take care & precaution to not abuse the 'crack' that breaks the protection that may damage the media in the long run.

however, with grains of salt, & in general i may have to disagree. knowing how people are & how far thriftiness can go, i'm sure without cd-protection, a copy of a good game will get distributed around the neighbourhood or family clan members via copies in no time. that will kill the company that want to establish themselves & make honest profits. & with games, & kids (pre-teens & teens) who are not yet well-grounded on moral standings on such issues; well we have wild fire on our hands.

i'm sure larians can trust a number of us who are loyal fans to buy orginal. but what about the rest who aren't really ardent fans or just gamers who want to get their fix & if they can get it easily (& illegaly), why not? if u can save $30, why not? so u see, can that attitude go away with the cd protection? i don't think so.

this issue really depends a lot on both sides; manufacturers & consumers. just how ethical are both sides on dealings? can the manufacturers be trusted to provide product/service that are reliable & not just long enough prduct/service cycle so users have to back to get it again & again & again? can the consumers be trusted to not abuse the trust that manufacturers have in them by not blatantly copying (ok, this is about cd's) & stuff like that (meaning i don't know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )?



......a gift from LaFille......
#245160 11/06/04 06:32 AM
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You're right janggut.

When we owned the Amiga 1000, we had literally hundreds of games. We owned 5 of them. Why did we copy them? Because we could.

Now that I'm older, I don't pirate any more. Why? It is becoming harder to crack games. Games are a lot larger, hence download issues. A number of hacked games are incomplete, including only the gameplay and not the story elements. And I believe in supporting the wonderful teams who make these masterpieces and escapes.

#245161 12/06/04 01:25 PM
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First of all, I have only made a couple of points. One was that disc protection is illegal. This is true! Like it or not, beleive me or not.

Whether the worlds ends tomorrow because of cracks, pirates or joe bloggs, this doesn't change the above statment. We have had a game industry long before disc protections came out. And granted, that it is easier to distribute games via the net now, but there are still alternatives to this kind of illegal protection.

No matter what you all say, I cannot condone companies (for whatever reason) breaking the law. You cannot say it's immoral for someone to STEAL game code, and then look the other way when the software houses break the law. They're both being naughty. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


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#245162 16/06/04 12:03 AM
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I just reread this thread and noticed your post about restricting our right to make backups. That is a good point. But this is the problem with electronic technology, that backup can be distributed and who the hell is going to find out. If you make it copyable, then it is copyable for everyone, causing piracy. I can only think of one method that might work, although it's not entirely enticing or plausable yet:

Online serial number authentication. You cannot start the game until you log on and your serial number is authenticated, similar to Neverwinter Nights. Should yor serial number be used more than once simultaniously, alarm bells ring. This idea is based on the design of DNS security. This is looking at a time where all machines are permanently connected to the 'Net.

And even then, how long before people produce fake authentication proxies...

#245163 16/06/04 03:55 PM
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I just reread this thread and noticed your post about restricting our right to make backups. That is a good point. But this is the problem with electronic technology, that backup can be distributed and who the hell is going to find out. If you make it copyable, then it is copyable for everyone, causing piracy. I can only think of one method that might work, although it's not entirely enticing or plausable yet:

Online serial number authentication. You cannot start the game until you log on and your serial number is authenticated, similar to Neverwinter Nights. Should yor serial number be used more than once simultaniously, alarm bells ring. This idea is based on the design of DNS security. This is looking at a time where all machines are permanently connected to the 'Net.

And even then, how long before people produce fake authentication proxies...


It isn't our problem to fix this situation; it's the software houses problem. Millions are spent on the latest protections, and they all get cracked! I like the idea of CD keys (online maybe) providing there's scope for multiplaying without participation on the software houses servers (Direct IP).

I'm not saying they shouldn't protect their software, i'm just saying they shouldn't protect the disc! Look at Microsoft software; all copyable, but look how much money they've made. Piracy hasn't made them bankrupt. This proves there are alternatives to the disc.


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#245164 17/06/04 12:01 AM
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[I'm not saying they shouldn't protect their software, i'm just saying they shouldn't protect the disc! Look at Microsoft software; all copyable, but look how much money they've made. Piracy hasn't made them bankrupt. This proves there are alternatives to the disc.


Not to mention they never had any game problems related to protection.

The idea of CD-Keys is excellent although it only works for games with online play.

#245165 17/06/04 02:30 AM
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The cd protection doesnt really bother me, it takes 20 sec longer to start the game so what?

It doesnt have cd load times in game or something so you shouldnt be to bothered :P

//Inel.


Don't play when you have a mushroom phobia! o.O xD
#245166 17/06/04 11:57 PM
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There's no reason to require a game disc to be in the drive. The reason given for disc-in-drive requirement, "copyright protection", is poor because that type of protection via the current means is an illusion. What prevents users from duplicating the game disc and using it in the drive? Not much. In this day and age when most computers are equipped with CD/DVD-writers, there's little to prevent users from disc duplication.

Established game developers like Blizzard Entertainment and Westwood may use a protective disc-requirement scheme, but they don't spend resources like it were important, knowing that the profits received from the number of games sold will exceed the profits lost to software piracy. That allows others to develop no-cd patches, which increases customer satisfaction. (C'mon, Larian! CRM!)

Some developers like Epic (i.e., the developers of UTxxxx) take a more logical approach. They patch out, or just not include, such tried and failed piracy-prevention schemes.

Beyond Divinity lacks a large (piracy) market because its marketing programs are scarce and its distribution too narrow. When knowledge of a game isn't widespread, software piracy will endanger the livelihood of companies like Larian. However, if it were the other way around, software piracy wouldn't hurt as much. Software piracy is inevitable. You can't stop it with weird prevention schemes, CD-Keys, multiple discs, or huge file sizes. There's no use in trying. It's far more cost-effective to "get big" so that all your markets grow.

By the way, the German version of Beyond Divinity is pirated, available, and currently being distributed illegally on the Web via a new P2P technology, and the English version of Beyond Divinity is pirated and distributed with an old chat technology. (Who were those guys in the beginning of this thread arguing whether Beyond Divinity is pirated? They're silly. Any game that gets a good score on gamerankings.com is pirated and distributed.)

Last edited by Adraeus; 18/06/04 12:02 AM.
#245167 18/06/04 06:12 PM
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Why are you so hung up on not having the cd in the drive?

#245168 18/06/04 06:20 PM
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Why are you so hung up on not having the cd in the drive?


I don't know about he guy above but, I own a lot of games, and have a big hard drive. I can have as many as 15 games installed at once.

Wouldn't it be easier if you could just click "go" and the game runs? Instead of fishing out discs, laying them up, not to mention the wear and tear on your drives.

This way is easier and more convenient.


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#245169 18/06/04 06:27 PM
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I admit, when a game could be run with a crack "If I either own the original or not" I mostly download it cause I don't really feel like switching cd's 10 times a day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Atm I only play a Online mmporg and just BD once in a while "Beated it loads already" so the cd is in the drive and im not bothered by it.

//Inel.


Don't play when you have a mushroom phobia! o.O xD
#245170 18/06/04 06:36 PM
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Wrong
I'll tell you why.
Your pissed off you have to actually pay for this game because of starforce instead of downloading it through "P2P technology" uh yeah.. What was the second phrase? "chat technology"? Gimme a break. Don't troll the forums just because your used to downloading free [nocando] through xdcc/filesharing apps /fxp /affils(i doubt it.)/topsites (HA)/. I could understand if you were angry because this protection screws your ability to play the game, and in some cases I've seen on this forum that holds true for some people. But thats not why your here. It's not a question of why do I have to use a cd-rom drive, it's question of why the hell isn't this piece of software free. If it was you wouldn't be posting in this thread, and you sure as hell wouldn't be asking people how much they paid for BD in a second thread. You can either get a job and pay for something people worked hard to market and create, or wait until the protection is defeated and have your free game. But the one thing you have to do is STFU.

Directed at Adraeus
<3

Last edited by Euro; 18/06/04 06:51 PM.
#245171 18/06/04 07:04 PM
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Why do people pirate? It just makes it so they can't even make anymore games!

And I will suppourt any copy protection that lets me play the game and makes it hard to pirate. and this system they use right now lets me play the game. AND IS IT TO HARD TO SWITCH A FRIGGEN DISC???? NO!




#245172 18/06/04 08:26 PM
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Pirating wont really inflicts the makers, but the stores who bought the games of them and sell~.

Ofcourse sores could say we stop taking games by that producent and then it infclicts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> but who knows that game gets sold alot? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

//Inel.


Don't play when you have a mushroom phobia! o.O xD
#245173 18/06/04 09:08 PM
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The maker doesn't get the money they need for it.



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