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I used google and put in what I thought, were distinctive quote parts in order to find the original writer. If I had found her myself, I wouldn't have asked but contacted her directly, Winterfox. Therefore I thought, her content was somewhere to be downloaded in form of a doc and google might not find it. And it has nothing to do with infringement of copyright or "fair use clause" (though it astonished me, to find the word "fair" in your post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> ) but simply with a clean way of quoting by naming the originator's name as full source, in the way it was done in the link, I posted.

I don't care, if you consider my wish an insult - and I will continue to speak up if I consider it necessary (you wanted a promise, right? Here it is). Credibility was never my concern - it's not up to me to decide this, but decision or choice of others, and has no impact on me - same goes for backfiring. Keeping silent about what I think might be descrediting persons who can't defend themselves, because their work is used in the manner you did (without naming them as a source), is cowardice in my eyes - and this weighs far more for me than credibility. Not clear enough?
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WF:
Ahem; that brings back the horror -- excuse me while I go fetch a bucket into which I will forthwith empty the contents of my stomach...

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WF:
The people who would cringe at this generally see it for what it really is: angsty whining

Maybe clear enough now? And if still not clear => IMO you use quotes in order to jeer at anonymous persons, make fun of them, jab, insult etc. in a form you might think is witty or intelligent. ("Bitching about" is a favourite expression of yours on other forums, where you claim to write critics). Very unprofessional IMO, because it's not even about the work you claim to review/critic, it's just about yourself - in my words => literary exhibitionism in the vulture and scavenger way some "critics" consider professional, revealing nothing about the work - as it is only a tool for this critic, not the subject. I don't take this seriously, as I choose to make up my own mind about what I dislike/dislike in writing - the style simply nauseates me. No, not necessary to fetch me a bucket, even if we share the same reaction.

If you consider my words an insult - you're welcome to express this. I will still ask - in my language style, with my opinion and my explanation why I ask. Take it or leave it, has no impact on my opinion. As you (for whatever reason) do not want to tell me her name, I can only hope, she sees it herself someday and reacts, so I may be able to read the whole context.

Anything still unclear?
Kiya

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I don't think I'm going to waste my time or energy replying to someone who's having so much fun straddling the moral high-horse. Hey, a bit hard to make myself heard when someone's wa[i][/i]nking to the sound of her own voice and her perceived moral superiority.

Credit where credit's due, in any case, because I for one would be loathe to claim ownership of that text. The wangsty entry comes from the blog of the legendary Link's Queen.

Clarification: Kiya, dearest, it is not your wish I find insulting. It is the comparison to vulture/scavenger. If it helps, I don't take you particularly seriously, either. The "style" of pretentious pedanry gets dull after a while, after all.

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@Plow, I just read your story, my thoughts/reactions as a reader:

Very vivid description - by reading I "saw" what you descibed.

language in direct speech - hey, I really liked that, very natural. The way you let Adam speak in his persistant way as rather small kids do if they turn stubborn. Same for the way you described Harold and let him speak - both came alive in my mind: a frightened, bewildered little boy trying to cope with the unknown in a sort of fatalism and stupor - the gruff, somewhat distanced father, who still cares for his son. It was sketched (purpose, hm? As focus goes to the threat) - but enough for me to build up

building up tension and reader curiosity - starting with a strange happening and then extending the weirdness step by step to show the threat, first short culmination in the ambulance scene => <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

exact description of the environment, so I was not desoriented.

atmosphere - weird, therefore a good ground is prepared to build upon. I'd not put in a lot of horror effects if you continue - like beads on a thread following quickly. Tension can build up better if a silent threat is there and if Adam's full metamorphosis will not occur in your next part IMO. Or do you wish to keep a fast pace in development? I'm just asking, because Hohlbein e.g. (German fantasy/horror author) has a tremendous pace in action, leaving me (the reader) breathless. Too many chases/dangers, following too quickly, so I can't build up pics and delve into a story.

Suggestions to help me (the reader with a vivid imagination):
a description of Adam (if you mean to keep him as the main protagonist) - I saw his hand, arm and what happened to it - but my inner pic wavered a bit: hair/eye colour? Age? Figure? Clothes? Or did you skip this on purpose, as he will complete his metamorphosis?

More exact description of the people you already mentioned, so the persons form more in my mind. Or is this your style, as you want the reader to focus on the black bumps/blisters and the strange creature forming? And a description of these people might distract then? Though, I still would like to see the dog-woman and hope, she will pop up later, need to read more for this. You described Sparky very well and distinctive - so, why not his mistress?

The episode, about how Adam's Mom ran wild and became violent, needs a separation/distinction/inclusion IMO. Either a phrase such as: "Adam' eyes fell upon a dirty wool cap in the corner and he suddenly remembered...." Or "by passing the corridor, Adam threw a glance at the tiny photograph of a woman on the wall and... <knitting attack memory comes>" Or "Adam was scared and instinctively touched his tummy for comfort... <2 scars and knitting attack>" Or "A sharp twang, his scars hurt again...<memory>"

Don't know how to phrase this clearer => it was like a rupture from the current action surrounding it - and my concentration sort of broke. As this memory is a flashback (correct?) - and probably a pretty traumatic one for Adam - it might need a bit of flesh around it, to put it into place. A sort of going to and coming back, you know what I mean? Or maybe an empty line at the beginning and the end - so, the reader knows: aha, I'm in the house again and will follow Adam.

Please, keep on writing and inform, so I can read more <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
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Clarification: Kiya, dearest, it is not your wish I find insulting. It is the comparison to vulture/scavenger. If it helps, I don't take you particularly seriously, either

Oh, I see. I still consider the vulture/scavenger comparison about the way you write in your case appropriate. I can live with the fact that you don't take me seriously, it's nice if both levels are equal.
Kiya

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Hey, a bit hard to make myself heard when someone's wanking to the sound of her own voice and her perceived moral superiority.


I wouldn't worry about that, Winterfox - your voice and eagerness to put your own two or more scathing bits into this forum is infinite and very predictable in its regularity. Even the style is predictable and something to rely on.

<sigh, doublesigh> I found Link's Queen and am looking through the entries in her calendar - but I can't find the part I'm looking for. I have difficulties getting inner access to her fiction work, as this is not the genre I normally read - give your non-existing heart a shove, please and share the exact source. I do not want to be distracted by reading all of her fiction - just the part you quoted, so I can get access to the context surrounding this. Please?

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Face it...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> Winterfox is just a bitch! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


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I still consider the vulture/scavenger comparison about the way you write in your case appropriate.


You mean you won't mind if I call you a self-righteous Carebear afflicted with delusions of granduer, right? After all, being as rude as you possibly can is all okay if I "consider it appropriate."

I also find it funny and oh-so-slightly hypocritical that you preach about polite conduct and such, but resort to petty insults.

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<sigh, doublesigh> I found Link's Queen and am looking through the entries in her calendar - but I can't find the part I'm looking for. I have difficulties getting inner access to her fiction work, as this is not the genre I normally read - give your non-existing heart a shove, please and share the exact source. I do not want to be distracted by reading all of her fiction - just the part you quoted, so I can get access to the context surrounding this. Please?


I'll offer you a clue: 's not fiction, the entry I quoted. I can't be arsed to track the exact entry down, either; blogs are a pain in the royal behind when trying to look for entry contents. Also, you'll notice that my post quoting it is dated some time ago. Meaning that, when I wrote that post, the entry was still new enough to be easily accessible. Eh. Who knows; maybe she deleted it already.

Jurak: why, yes. And at least I admit it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

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Aw, come on, I never denied I like being bitchy, Winterfox. In fact, I really like this expression, in spite of its negative meaning - has a nice phonetical sound.
But there is a difference between your way of bitching and mine => I don't pick at people who can't defend themselves. This is the Carebear within myself, I see no point in working against this part of my nature. I don't believe in unnecessary cruelty - I give respect and care at the start. Only if I see the other person chooses to pursue a certain pattern and obviously has different inner rules => then I switch and give/deny what the other one uses, so borders and levels are equal again.

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self-righteous Carebear afflicted with delusions of granduer

Nope, I don't mind at all - though could it be you mean "grandeur"? Or "grandezza"? Carebear is cute, all furry and fuzzy, turning into a Grizzly if I am annoyed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />
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After all, being as rude as you possibly can is all okay if I "consider it appropriate."

No, keep on being rude - I can learn a lot from you in this area <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - as you and I already summed it up as not taking each other seriously => entering this section might be entertaining.

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blogs are a pain in the royal behind when trying to look for entry contents

It's tedious, yes - therefore I hoped, you had the memory to find it more quickly than I can. Wallowing through all links, stumbling over countless juvenile manga avas, skimming through names that are totally unknown to me (Link, Jenna) or expressions such as bish... somethings - getting sidetracked - shaking my head etc. Only the posts of Limyaael offered a bit of relief, as they were witty, specially the MarySue test or the ideas to try out non-human chars. And definitely not scathing - not the posts I read.

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Who knows; maybe she deleted it already

Could be, but I found another one of her that was similar. It's a pity, Linksqueen's works are hosted by a friend now and the link to that site was dead. So, I think I'm going to give up. I am not masochistic enough to follow all these sites who link to bad fiction and brand them. Why? I meet too much disdain, spite, viciousness, malice, gloating. Too much acid, too much poison, very destructive vibes. Yep, too many vultures/scavengers.

Maybe you can go through the trouble - as this virtual writing world is familiar to you - and give me a hint, where constructive critic is done?

There seems to be a sort of MarySue Phobia by those who consider themselves literate, so they bash cruelly in a self-righteous manner. Do sites exist, where cliched chars are treated carefully by critics and with respect, so the originator is encouraged to try out new paths and variations? And feels no need to feel rejected as the atmosphere is friendly, amiable and helpful?

Maybe in the sense of: "yes, your protagonist is not alive atm, is encrusted in an armour full of cliches, the plot is predictable the way you write it - what about this? Try out to give her a flaw, a flaw that brings her into trouble throughout the story - don't make her so beautiful and irresistible. Ok, you're in love with her raven-black, long flowing silken hair with a white streak, covering her sensuous features like a frame (yesyes, I read Limyaael <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> ) . Let her get lice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> from her lover <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> she has to shave her head - and now her scar on her bald head is visible. Her features are still the same, but people react differently. And now describe her again - her scar was not due to a heroic fight or a bad step-mother, nope, she slipped whilst crossing a stream and cracked her head on a boulder (banal reason) - an ugly scar - a scar she hid due to her long hair. And what about her ears now? How do they fit to her sensuous features? What about making them small and perfect, but a bit sticking out? You can work out the vulnerability of this clean, open face. The contrast, between a tanned face and the snowwhite scalp - see? Your char will have to react differently now. She's no longer a dazzling beauty - but maybe a bit more interesting now. If she is nervous, one eye will start to twitch - her hair will no longer hide it. Dismantle her, make her human. And after her hair has grown back to a reasonable length - your char will have added other "colours", features, way to approach people. Yes, you will have your swan back again - but one with many-coloured feathers, not a sterile cliche.

Here, this/that you mentioned about your char is interesting, why not flesh it out in this/that manner? What about this/that to bring a surprise into the plot? Hey, that handsome bloke who's pursuing her - let him have a nice accident - or let your char find out that his intelligence is non-existant and he's as boring as a vase in the museum. What about annoying manners? Something that aggravates your char? Let her feelings change, if you want to write a love-story at all costs. Let him scratch his head/bite his fingernails/clear his throat and spit, everytime he doesn't know what to do. Let her start counting how often he does it. Describe how her feelings slowly start to fade due to this annoying manner that fascinated her at the start. Let that bloke have a nice dimple showing up at times - so her feelings rise again and she melts. If you want to show a lot of interaction between both, do not only decribe the hot/cold moments, take the luke-warm as well. Bring both protagonists down to earth again - let them fail, let them carry a guilt with them - not an epic heroic one - a banal one. Think of a nice phobia - take your armour of cliches as a picture frame and let your chars step out at times. This surprises."

You know what I mean? A helpful site, caring for the chars/stories that are represented there, as authors wish help and get help instead of bashing? BTW, Limyaael wrote something interesting as well => angsting is not to be discharged off all the time, but can turn out fitting in a story, if developed in a believable manner.

I'm playing a bit now, in the tradition of Lisa Alther's novel about a nurse => char has a trauma - it is not displayed in epic broadth, just hinted at. In the sense of little scraps and bits popping up within the story to make the reader curious: "DAMN! I want to know what happened, why does that char react so unpredictable in certain moments?" An angst that will not be solved/healed due to true love, wise women, wealth etc., but forms a part of the char, is well hidden. Something the char even hides from herself but butts in and takes over control in moments. Only in moments, otherwise this angst would turn into a cliche as well and predict her actions all the time. I think, this kind of angst could make a char interesting indeed.

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Thanks for the comments guys!

@Winterfox -
Thanks for clearing up the apostrophe thing, as I knew this when I started but the placement of them was always sketchy at best in my mind. Most of them are my fault, and some are MS words fault! Any other typos etc. I just missed, even though I read it over about 10 times. Always best to have someone else read it. Like a professional editor or something, that's what they're for! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Curious about this - "Place him in the back" is correct; "place him in back"
If it's speech, then is it still an error without 'the'. Are characters not allowed to speak in short sharp (grammatically incorrect) ways? If not why not?

"Remember, begin a new paragraph for every new speaker." Gotchya!




@Kiya -
Thanks for your comments. Very helpful indeed. Particularly about Adam, I should have offered a description, or fed his description out over the course. I think I'll amend that first.

Kiya - "language in direct speech - hey, I really liked that, very natural."
Cheers, I tried to maintain that. Especially in that people don't all talk in grammatically correct ways - though WF might say/know that this is still not acceptable in writing - I don't see why it wouldn't be acceptable. (referring to the ("Place him in the back" is correct; "place him in back")

Flashback comments duely noted. I didn't go towards Adam himself thinking back to the event, I tried to just inform the reader as part of the narrative. But looking back I put in 'flashback' speech between the mom and dad, so that probably threw my intent off. So you certainly have a point.

@ Both - thanks for the reviews!




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Plow:
Kiya - "language in direct speech - hey, I really liked that, very natural."
Cheers, I tried to maintain that. Especially in that people don't all talk in grammatically correct ways

Correct <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - I envy people who are able to write in dialect/slang in a consistent manner - making interaction believable and alive. Why? Well, in my imagination, I "hear" them as well. And slang/dialect/grammar changes voices in my head. Your Adam had a totally different voice as Harold, added to his outer appearance, I developed emotions for that little chap at once, sympathy. Same for his father (sniff, he's probably dead) - his short intermezzo was already enough for me to build him up. I really like non-sterile chars with bumps, flaws and gruffiness. Your language choice transported this very well IMO.

You will continue writing this story? Oh, and how long is it going to be? More a short story or a large novel? This determines story pace. If you bring in a lot of firework at the start (for a long novel), you'll find yourself in trouble describing new events as this strange creature takes over - repeating takes out tension. In a short story, you can flash fireworks as it is condensed. I'd like to know if you give me the honour to read more,ok?
Kiya

PS: I will treat Adam carefully, promise. I like that boy.

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Hi K,

I'll send the link to part 2 once it's done (already underway). It'll be a short story for sure. Part 2 may be the finish, but I think it'll stretch to a part 3, if I release part 2 with the same word count.

It's a challenge to put something so strange and weird/awful like this creature in to our world and maintain an air of reality - just how would the people and the world actually react - how would one boy react? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

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Are characters not allowed to speak in short sharp (grammatically incorrect) ways? If not why not?


Yes, it could be allowable, but IMO, there are two main problems to be considered:

1. As Kiya, and others, already pointed out, it must be consistent to be believable and form characterization.

2. Even more difficult - and I am saying this as a German native with knowledge and experience with a variety of regional dialects within the German language - those dialects are mainly phonetic, meaning there is no specific spelling nor grammar, when its written. Writing in dialect is terribly hard, as you are using a tool (written language) that is not always adequate to the task.

The issue becomes even more critical, when your readers are not themselves actively familiar with that dialect. What I mean is, if you know the dialect and your "audience" (= readers) do also - then it is easier. If however your intention is to reach people beyond that, then it becomes a matter of possible misunderstanding or plain non-understanding (which actually is like in real life, when listening to colloquial regional dialects. While I fancy my English to be adequate to make myself understood, I did find that not only Americans, but also Scots and Irish are separated from the English by a "common" language).

I have no "set in concrete" view on this, but I recommend to give the balance some consideration. On one side, I (German, who learned English as a foreign language) am indeed irritated at first by the "incorrect phrasing" - on the other side, I do agree, that it adds to the ambiente and the colouring of the character. (I would hate to have to translate something like this, with all its facettes, and for a Germany wide readership!)



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Curious about this - "Place him in the back" is correct; "place him in back"
If it's speech, then is it still an error without 'the'. Are characters not allowed to speak in short sharp (grammatically incorrect) ways? If not why not?


I don't consider it acceptable because, generally, such an error comes from a non-native speaker. A native speaker is indeed likely to speak in fragments or run-ons (or plural/singular verb confusion), but an omission of an article I find unnatural. Having been in an environment where I interact with both native and non-native speakers on a daily basis, I've noticed some speech patterns. *shrugs* If you insist, by all means, keep it there. It just happens to jangle, for me.

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I am not masochistic enough to follow all these sites who link to bad fiction and brand them. Why? I meet too much disdain, spite, viciousness, malice, gloating. Too much acid, too much poison, very destructive vibes. Yep, too many vultures/scavengers.


If you searched around for a bit, you'd have noticed that LQ started off receiving polite critiques for her story (which, yes, contains a Mary Sue). The woman responded with pages-long author's notes throwing a temper tantrum and screaming curses; splooge was spilled everywhere across several message boards. Oh, additionally, she plagiarized relentlessly, ranging from using copyrighted names/ideas without saying that they weren't hers, to an art theft. Every action has a consequence, Kiya dear.

If you want to continue living in your little Utopia where everybody is perfect, patient and caring? Wonderful for you. Just don't expect everyone else to maintain the same delusions and act the way you would. The sites that link to bad fiction and mock them? Why, hello! Welcome to the real world. Humanity in general is about as forgiving and caring as a rusty iron maiden. At your age, surely you know that already. Do not feign such transparent naiveté. I'm so sorry that exposure to real people, as opposed to Carebear caricatures, has caused you so much distress.

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There seems to be a sort of MarySue Phobia by those who consider themselves literate, so they bash cruelly in a self-righteous manner. Do sites exist, where cliched chars are treated carefully by critics and with respect, so the originator is encouraged to try out new paths and variations? And feels no need to feel rejected as the atmosphere is friendly, amiable and helpful?


Because most Mary Sues are masturbatory fantasies of teenage girls. Wave feedback that is less than glowing in front of them and most of them will explode into screeching hissyfits and/or pity-begging, attention-whoring parties, complete with suicide threats. (Unfortunately, they never live up to their word in this aspect. Ah, woe.) Many consider it a complete waste of time to write a long, detailed review for someone who will probably disregard it and send them hate-mails. Thus, it is less frustrating in the long run to give critiques only when they are explicitly requested. (Of course, then there are people who overestimate their skin and end up crying to their mommies at the first sign of negative feedback anyway. But that's another sub-category.)

Such communities include: Constructive Criticism, Original Character Analysis, and the In Progress section at GAFF (a board, in fact, dedicated to mocking bad fiction/film/etc. Gasp! The horror, the shock! The world isn't painted in black and white after all!).

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If you want to continue living in your little Utopia where everybody is perfect, patient and caring? Wonderful for you. Just don't expect everyone else to maintain the same delusions and act the way you would

Nope, I don't expect that - a Utopia is a Utopia after all. As I tried to find the text, I concentrated on Linkqueen's calendar, but only found 2 entries in 2003 (Dec and April) - then I started to track down her links. So, the responses to her in that time were indeed unfriendly - I didn't want to pursue this any further then - only her text without comments of scavengers/vultures. About her plagiarism: can't judge that, as all names were totally unknown to me. Couldn't even identify one - my interest was reading the angst texts, not more - and they seemed to be hers. Same for the Lucid Dream text - yes, I read that.
Nope, I don't expect the same delusions/act => my way to approach people is the result of a lifelong process and I'm still learning. I maintain my openness though, otherwise I'd just be one of the countless zombies I met in life. Wouldn't like to feel this: numb, empty, functioning - only filtered emotions <shudder>

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Humanity in general is about as forgiving and caring as a rusty iron maiden. At your age, surely you know that already. Do not feign such transparent naiveté. I'm so sorry that exposure to real people, as opposed to Carebear caricatures, has caused you so much distress.

Maybe for others - not for me. This rusty iron maiden here likes humanity and chooses to keep it, specially because of my high age. Nice to view if others get annoyed by this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> - Nope, I'm not naive, just stubborn. In any case, these "real people" are not what I'd like to have around in RL, so why should I expose myself to them in the virtual world? I treat them like wasps: ignore them and if they really bother to tumble into my glass => a wave of the hand, c'est tout. Nope, neither wasps nor scavengers/vultures cause me distress - disgust is my only reaction. These people search for victims, and I pity authors falling into their den. And I'm sure, you're not one tiny bit sorry - please, don't. I'd hate to revise the pic I have already <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> . WF and human reactions? Nope, I'd hardly survive this shock - even Carebears have their esteems <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> . Please, remain as predictable as you show yourself up to now. Help me keep my little Utopia <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

And about you welcoming me to the real world => that's a good joke! Having a 20startsomething welcoming me, the 47-yr-old, is hilarious <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Like a yapping puppy trying to tell the old flea-bitten Carebear what the only real correct path is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> Play in your puppy league, WF. Get a few flea bites as well, learn the different shades of life, or keep on yapping at my ankles. I've found my path, thank you for giving me a hearty laugh <wiping laughing tears> Gee, this self-righteousness and intolerance of adolescents <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> These paladins of the only true path, the main member group I have to deal with in my job (14-25). Considering themselves soooo unique - and not understanding that 23 yrs of watching this same behaviour over and over again, in search of something unique, bores me mostly and amuses me at best. Correct, my words are arrogant now - but maybe this explains why I am not able to take some behaviour/approach seriously. I've seen too much, WF. You know: been here, done that, saw the same. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> So, black/white is the way you see the world, dearest WF (meant in sincere sense, no irony at all). Don't worry, grey/coloured shades will come, if you keep your eyes open - needs time and XP. In case, I'm not clear enough for you => search the posts you addressed at me, take out the attributes, gather them - and then look how many words simply describe yourself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

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Because most Mary Sues are masturbatory fantasies of teenage girls.

Back to being serious now: Hm, I disagree here - my XP comes from published books, and those are written by biological adults. And there are similarities as well. Some even sell excellently: Cartland, Woodiwiss e.g. I wonder, how these authors would have had the courage to publish their work if they had chosen the internet world as a test balloon.

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Wave feedback that is less than glowing in front of them and most of them will explode into screeching hissyfits and/or pity-begging, attention-whoring parties, complete with suicide threats.

Vive la cliché, WF. I think SV (scavenger/vulture type) and the MS (MarySue type) are similar: both parties dig moats, bring up their weapons and react instinctively like a Pawlow dog => full of prejudices, assumptions, enemy archetypes in 3D and technicolour. So, both partes in full combat are too predictable, just spooling down a ritual. And then, where is the point? Just another battle, but no changes, see?

Last thought => you consider it important to grow a skin. Have you ever thought about this: a skin, hard, protective and similar to a reptile (metaphor not comparison) => doesn't this turn into a full-plate armour with restrictions then? How can creativity and imagination grow? I'd find that very difficult. Just an idea => imagine you would start to write (at your young age) - and start with a cliché char (MS) because you don't know another way to express your imagination. Why not encourage to enfold this char? As suggestions? Or is the SV club so exclusive that only an elite may enter this world? Initiation ceremonies have to deal with fire, poison and only a handful of survivors are allowed to touch the holy grail of literature? And if so - how can this elite survive? Without followers? Without adepts?

No fresh blood, no new ideas - gee, this would be a sterile literate world, where only formalistic structure thrives - bloodless chars, androids, perfect in formalisms (grammar/spelling) - no soul, no humour? BTW, I miss something => the robot MS, a cliche as well and not restricted to the SF section. A char with carefully designed flaws, intellectual at all times, without the attributes of Spock - death of imagination and creativity - bloodless, lifeless - ok, but perfect in an artificial manner.

Keep your opinion that I meant SV as a personal insult - but if you can => try to follow this pic that lead me to giving the name:
A corpse on the ground (story plot/MS char introduced to public) a flock of vultures, a herd of scavengers prowling towards it. Jumping on it, tearing out bits and pieces, ripping it apart, flinging intestines away, battling over the remnants, dragging flesh away, excrementing. The combat is over, the SV are saturated, they go away, bellies are overfull (in need of a bucket). The MS author tries to defend her work in a similar manner (you described that in your post).

Camera back to the former corpse => everything is scattered and shattered, if the author is lucky, the bones (story core) are still there. Ok, if the author has a skin, she might pick them up and build up again - some might have lost courage at the sight of this mess. WHO knows, if this corpse might not have been an uncut gem? Just in need of polish with patience and care? WHO knows, if the author might not have freely cut away parts that were not good and built up differently? Added variations? Aided by those who saw more than a simple MS plot?

Thank you for the links <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> - I'll try them out, maybe I find a new constructive approach there, would be a nice change.

Kiya <still laughing at WF as a life teacher> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - and though very tempted, refrains from stroking the puppy's head>

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that's no pup, it's pip, as in squeak! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
WF , why o why are you soooo bitter, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> ??
I don't think i've read one single, solitary post of yours that is on the positive side, are you lacking something from your childhood,
or is this your way of making friends? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />
your a joke, but not a funny one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Sorry to "pick on you, but I feel you deserve it, people DO change, and I sincerely hope your one of the ones that does....for your and others sake.
And what i said before about the female dog thing, who was it that said know thyself ?? Hmmm, good article. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

No need to rip this apart, just study it and try hard to learn. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepey.gif" alt="" />
Maybe you should change your name to WTF?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Jurak; 24/08/04 04:59 AM.

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Jurak said:

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that's no pup, it's pip, as in squeak! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
WF , why o why are you soooo bitter, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> ??
I don't think i've read one single, solitary post of yours that is on the positive side, are you lacking something from your childhood,
or is this your way of making friends? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />



Oh, I'm sure you are a qualified psychotherapist. By all means, speculate about my childhood, social life, or lack thereof. It's typical, and should be amusing.

Feel like a bigger boy now, dearie? *pinches your cheek* There, there, run along now. I'll resist the temptation to use an anime-style emotion.

Kiya:

Mmm, Kiya, remember what you said?

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But there is a difference between your way of bitching and mine => I don't pick at people who can't defend themselves. This is the Carebear within myself, I see no point in working against this part of my nature.


You said that you don't pick "at" (pick on, actually) people who can't defend themselves and you were screeching at me for "jabbing at anonymous people" (paraphrased), no? You realize that you are doing precisely that -- maligning people who are not here to respond, yes? With the comments about malice, vultures, and such? Hoho. At least try not too be too obvious, eh?

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Having a 20startsomething welcoming me, the 47-yr-old, is hilarious


Actually, I was indeed aware that you are forty-seven. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But aging is mandatory; some... other things are not. I mean, sure, one'd assume that some things should come with age and experience, but some times, they fly right over your head and miss you.

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Considering themselves soooo unique - and not understanding that 23 yrs of watching this same behaviour over and over again, in search of something unique, bores me mostly and amuses me at best.


Tut-tut. There you go making assumptions again. I completed my obligatory phase of "omg im so unique!11! an no1 can understannn meeee!11!" years ago. Why, are you going to guess that I raid Hot Topic next? Or wear black clothing and makeup perhaps? Or, better yet, that I am a poseur Wiccan?

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So, black/white is the way you see the world, dearest WF (meant in sincere sense, no irony at all).


No, love, I do not see the world in black and white. But if that's how you want to think, then oh well. Telling you otherwise would probably be the equivalent of convincing someone from the thirteenth century or so that the world is not a flat disc.

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Don't worry, grey/coloured shades will come, if you keep your eyes open - needs time and XP. In case, I'm not clear enough for you => search the posts you addressed at me, take out the attributes, gather them - and then look how many words simply describe yourself


Dearie, dearie me. I'm so chastised, I'd like to hang my head and kneel in repentance in the face of your... what, ancient wisdom? Or something. Hur hur.

On second thought, not really. You have all the persuasive power of a very moldy, very stale bread. I’ll try you again when I’m starving and there’s really no food within reasonable proximity.

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I wonder, how these authors would have had the courage to publish their work if they had chosen the internet world as a test balloon.


Actually, I've encountered several amateurs that get their work professionally published -- they have used online publication (even, gasp, fanfic!) as testing ground and practice. Oh, and guess what? Professional writers get critiques that are as harsh as anything you'll see directed at amateurs on the 'Net, ranging from tearing their work apart to remarks directed at their personal life. (Ed Greenwood, for instance, has been called a perverted old man due to the sexual contents in his books. To the best of my knowledge, the man takes it in stride and shrugs things off.) What, you haven't seen the reviews at Amazon.com? Tsk.

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I think SV (scavenger/vulture type) and the MS (MarySue type) are similar: both parties dig moats, bring up their weapons and react instinctively like a Pawlow dog => full of prejudices, assumptions, enemy archetypes in 3D and technicolour.


Gasp. You mean you are not full of assumptions, at the very least? You are making many, many of them just now.

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How can creativity and imagination grow? I'd find that very difficult.


Oh, sweet Goddess and her Consort, not this argument. You know, for someone who claims to be as wizened as you are, you use arguments I've seen a thousand times before with disturbing frequency. If your skin is thick enough, you will be able to conceive ideas and imagine, regardless of the criticism lobbed your way; with some application of gray matter, one should learn what to take into consideration and what not to. Additionally, if we use this logic, then grammar, punctuation – nay, any recognizable language, period – would limit “creativity” and “imagination”, yes?

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Or is the SV club so exclusive that only an elite may enter this world? Initiation ceremonies have to deal with fire, poison and only a handful of survivors are allowed to touch the holy grail of literature? And if so - how can this elite survive? Without followers? Without adepts?


*sporfles!* And you say other people are full of "enemy archetypes" and "prejudices"? Look no further, my friend, than the mirror. This old argument is so tired, it's gotten to the point that the people at GAFF have established a mock "Super Sekrit Sinister Sect" (aka "Secret Elitist Cult Thing" -- hey, I like that initials better). No, no, little one. All the mocking communities I've joined allow anyone to register. GAFF is unmoderated; anybody can bring up any subject, post any opinion, and all discussions are allowed to go on without admin's restraint. I think you’d get along famously with the author of this" target="_blank">http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp151.html]this rant</a>.

Tell you what. Try us. Try posting at GAFF, for instance, and if you do so politely, I can assure you that most will respond in kind -- you may be surprised. Oh, a hint: the members of GAFF range from the age of thirteen to forty-something, so you may end up dispensing your wisdom to your contemporaries.

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Camera back to the former corpse => everything is scattered and shattered, if the author is lucky, the bones (story core) are still there. Ok, if the author has a skin, she might pick them up and build up again - some might have lost courage at the sight of this mess.


And?

If the author doesn't have enough spine and persistance to keep going in the first place, it is no one's fault but her own. Sorry.

Cripes. These posts are getting ridiculously long.

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Cripes. These posts are getting ridiculously long.

I Agree - and also they are not serving the original intent of this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />


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Is is writing......of some sorts,
the good, the bad, and even the ugly parts.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
and it possibly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> could serve as a good example to others,
for what exactly, I'm not sure? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

Oh!....you bet my qualified psychoanalytical skills are honed very,
very sharp,
remember...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
i raised two lovely girls, and they turned out just great! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Jurak; 24/08/04 04:44 PM.

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Cripes. These posts are getting ridiculously long.

I Agree - and also they are not serving the original intent of this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />



Hmmm, I beg to differ. First, writers should enjoy the chance to write at length, and I've always found it odd that people often consider long email or electronic messages difficult or unpleasant but will happily sit through a half hour dialog of audio. I think those of you that balk at long messages may want to take a look inside and identify why that is the case, because it often strikes me as a kind of behavioral inconsistency.

But in any case, the original intent of this thread was to discuss writing? And here we have some very interesting writing, in an informal style, most recently from Kiya and Winterfox, and that seems like an opportunity for us to discuss, and certainly on topic. Unless we are going to confine our definition of writing to very short messages written in more formal or better defined styles? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes wisdom and learning come from unexpected places, and is this not such a place?

1) Kiya has made some very interesting comments about the nature of the writing process and feedback, and how it impacts writers. I wonder how many of you agree that non constructive criticism, that sheer meanness in review as entertainment (without commenting or implying anything about the value of such activity as entertainment), is something that would have a negative impact on your ability to write?
Personally I suspect I would be negatively affected, that the kind of attack critiques Winterfox engages in so often would the kind of review that even understanding it's context, which (personally) strikes me as immature, would still have enough emotional impact that it would have at least some detrimental affect on any future work. (in the short term, at least)

Leading to question 2
2) As writers, or potential writers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> , would you agree that your emotional history and state are important, even critical tools for your written work? It is true for me, and I suspect it's quite common. If anyone can write well with a great sense of emotional detachment or distance, I would be interested in hearing about how they manage their techniques from a technical perspective, both in finding the "energy" to write, as well as investing emotion into characters, plot, etc.

and for 3,
3) Regarding the specifics of Kiya's and Winterfoxes recent communiques, and what we might learn from this writing style.
A) If I understand the exchanges properly, Winterfox seems to be remarkably off target in almost every response. I think the reason is a failure of something that in logic courses is sometimes called a facet of proper argument - a failure to try to read and appreciate another's work and interpret it in the most positive light, to make the argument as strong as possible, such that both sides of an "argument" arrive at the truth. With respect to writing in a more general sense, I try to give an author as much "credit" as I can and seek to involve myself, to immerse myself, in their work. If I bother to read something at all, then I want to make a genuine attempt to enjoy it. Do you, as a writer, also do this, or more typically perhaps, give a surface reading and either take away only a superficial pleasure or only to the extent the authors particular style is able to capture you?

This leads to another interesting question about whether the author has a responsibility to the reader to involve them, or can feel free to focus on other elements of the story, etc. and trust that the readers imagination can fill in certain blanks or weaker spots. My feeling is that authors have to go with their strengths and hope that readers are gracious and open enough to imagine the rest, as presumably the reader wants to enjoy the experience...

B) Also related to the recent posts, Winterfox has been critical of the language of others, while making a number of mistakes herself (spelling, grammar, and style) that are quite similar. I think we have an interesting question raised, to wit, would you as a writer think it important to focus on continuous improvement in technical aspects of your own work, (even in posts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ) or rather agree with Kiya's idea that working out the ideas and developing a comfortable writing style is a higher priority? And are these ideas necessarily in opposition?

For myself, I would prefer both of course, but as a practical matter I try to develop a strong and comfortable style so I can write at all, and as for the more technical details, I say kill em all, and let the editor sort it out.
Granted that won't help me publish anything... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> But better to write something awful than nothing at all, or what else would Winterfox do with her copious free time ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />



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@Winterfox:
To cut a long tale short => of course, I remember what I said, you quoted it - but maybe my message was not clear: I bitch at you, because you pick on people, who can't defend themselves, regardless of topic. And in this thread, you used your usual predictable way again to use language and critic as a tool to cut down creativity and imagination. Letting aside the way that you prefer to attack instead of using constructive language, you dumb down literature to cold mathematics: formalism, style rules, grammar, spelling are the axioms for good writing.

I disagree here strongly. I doubt you have ANY idea how to write or even determine what writing is about. So far, so good - you're free to have your opinion. What I promised you, is a promise I intend to keep: to speak up - regardless of you liking it or not.

There is a strong similarity between cliche chars (MS) in literature and stereotypes in RL. And here I butt in: a person thinking in intellectual cold formalisms shuns emotional writing, natural law - like it or not. A person not being able to play with cliche chars and find out individual shades to develop - unable to feel herself into a cliched MS char/plot is simply unable to write, why? Simple: lack of imagination, inability to play with fantasy. Why? Because cold maths butt in. This RL stereotype is unable to enter this world of another writer's imagination, it's like as if a full plate armour individual is trying to catch the wind.

Formalisms, rules to write a story (let alone review one) are simply not the adequate method to give a writer credit, encourage to develop variations. I consider both: writing and critic a method to develop one's own way to improve writing. I miss this in your case. So far, so good. BUT! You simply take too much pride in considering yourself a literate - sorry, you're not! Why? Well, formalisms should help but not rule - should aid the structure of a story but not tyrannize. A writer (a serious one!) should be able to play with ANY char/story instead of simply discharging. A formalist will always point out lacking petty stuff - and not be able to feel the story, delve into it - search for the gems. Why? Natural border within the formalist, seems to be a phobia. Pity - for the poor writer displaying her work and seeing it ripped apart. Pity for the lost chance to try out own imagination and play with another char/plot to sharpen one's own imagination.

You can't follow this way, because you don't want to. You choose to remain on your standpoint - ok for me, no loss. Stay on your formalism side, keep this illusion - but I will continue to speak up. For you?

Nope, closed ears are a waste of time and energy (a Carebear has to care for, in order to care about and bother - you don't fit in either category in my case) - I speak up for those, who might be discouraged - who see formalism as a gag, a tyrant and secretly try to throw away their work. Or those, who sit in front of their work and can't carry on. Creativity, imagination comes first - this is training. Developing a cliche char as a start is no crime and simply a basis to start from (maybe with aid from others). This is the way to write - using the cliche char as a frame to step out and develop own individualistic approaches - and then, afterwards, prune the story into a formalistic manner (not as a rule, simply as a gentle way of forming). Like or or not, has no impact on me.

@Just to writers: There are rare cases, where young writers start off with a living char instead of a cliche - fine, wonderful. But again => a MarySue char as your first attempts to express your creativity, because you know no other way first, is NO crime. Try it - write it down, develop your own cliche plot; present this to caring persons, who want to play with your story and delve into it. Take Carebears, or people who love to read - who are willing to take up the atmosphere, who like to make suggestions. Read them - choose freely what you wish to take, play with these suggestions if it fits your style, discuss, ask. After you have found out methods to express your creativity (I call it, flying free) - THEN develop your OWN formalistic style. You might not become a famous writer - but you will have this gain in any case: Expressing creativity and imagination - aside from trodden paths.
Kiya

@to all who may read this thread => Apology in advance for length, short attention span or the impression of being off-topic: it's not IMO. It's just the combat in the literature scene as I know it: formalism vs creativity. Both can go hand in hand - but sadly... as this thread shows... turns out into a black/white debate.

Last edited by kiya; 24/08/04 06:27 PM.
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