Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions Simple suggestion for voice acting

As far as I can tell, not a single voice-over in BD was done by a woman. It's kind of jarring and realliy irritating on female characters, to whom BD is very good, in general, about giving equal screen time. Would it be that hard to put a woman on the voice-acting team? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not that far in the game yet but I know that there is a witch (and honorable member of the forum) in the game called Kiya. Perhaps her char. have a voice. And I am sure it will be female. Have you reached that point yet? Perhaps someone who did can tell us. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Agreed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can't help wondering how it might have been if the Death Knight character had been voiced by a woman. Evil women can be even more sinister and scary than men! And they can keep you guessing about their real intentions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I think they rather stuffed up the DK character, both in the uncertain characterisation of the writing, and in the unfortunate choice of voice actor. There could have been a lot of entertaining possibilities with a hard-case female soul-mate.

We seem to get pretty one dimensional male characters in games, so an evil woman with some depth and subtlety would be great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

In what way did you think the characterisation was uncertain? Just out of interest as I wrote many of the DK lines. Have to admit that we had a lot less words to play around with in BD than DD sadly. Also factors like not referring to the hero as being either male or female specifically (because the hero could be either and there wasn't enough word count to do lines for each instance) and the whole minefield of the DK not being able to talk to people and yet still be able to comment on the situation was a nightmare! I had nothing to do with the voice acting, but now I wish I had because I could have given some guidelines.

Hi Leather Raven,

Great to meet someone who worked on the writing for the game.

Interesting to hear that you wrote "many of the DK lines", because that's pretty much what came across to me - that the character was the product of more than one person. Obviously the change of voice-overs also complicated things considerably. It must have been tough for you not have had the chance to give some directional input. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

I've never written for games, but I have done work on educational software and also for live theatre. Fortunately, I also sometimes had the opportunity to direct, which gives you the luxury of being able to explain want you wanted (and get told you're wrong by the actors! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ). You also have the chance to re-write or reshape a little if the actor just isn't able to quite bring off your originally intended effect (it happens!). That could have been handy for BD. I'm sure that the games world is structured completely differently though, with much more separation between members of the production team.

But, to answer your question. I haven't really gone through the DK lines but the way it felt to me was that there was some inconsistency, or indecision (at a story overview level) as to exactly what this guy was supposed to be and just how strong the friction between the two main characters was going to be. There are so many ways a Good Guy/Bad Guy theme can be treated and it was hard to tell in Act 1 just what sort of character the DK was. Is this going to be a bitch fight, a horror movie, a buddy movie, an 'odd couple' style or what? Of course, having to establish it with monologues rather than dialogues is a pretty crippling handicap! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

Once he settled down into the grumpy bad guy who makes sour comments about imps, and cracks jokes about almost liking the paladin who had come down with a touch of insane evil, the DK was doing fine, and also seemed at least roughly within the voice actor's range. It was mainly the initial bit where he has to rapidly tell us who and what he is that didn't seem to come across. After all, the whole soul forge thing is featured as major premise of the game, so the player is primed and keen to see just how that mismatch will go. But in the event it was hard to tell whether he's supposed to be outright evil, or nasty with a wry streak, or just a bad case of cynical grumpy [nocando], or whatever. Openings are never easy, but they are always crucial. Whatever the writer(s) intended at the start was also lost in the shock of hearing it delivered in what seemed a jarring and inappropriate way. In fact the whole game opening just seemed to lumber along the runway for far too long without taking off. This of course is primarily not the fault of the dialog writer.

People might say "What does it matter, it's not Shakespeare, it's only a game" but I think that good writing is crucial to the feel of a game. I should add that in general the writing for both DD and BD have been among their most appealing features, and one of the main reasons that I've enjoyed them. I take my hat off to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've been saddened to see no writer at all credited for a great many games, and the lack of expertise usually shows. The DK does get many good lines, and now and then he brings them off OK too, but it's sad to see such an important character not succeed as he should.

Keep up the good work. Are you working on DD2?

Cheers from the depths of West Australia. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, the exact writing process mainly involved Bronthion putting together the storyline and quest structure and initial dialogues, then myself coming in and editing them how I saw fit, without really changing the sense or plot points.

There were a few changes along the way from on high, mainly to try and keep the word count in check…DD was much longer dialogue wise and large word counts cause quite a few problems when it comes to the cost of translating the game in other territories. The hero originally wasn’t going to have proper lines…the argument being that people would probably not read them anyway, but it was something that myself, Bron and thankfully the testers didn’t like so the hero managed to get their own dialogue. Nothing too exciting you understand; but a lot more substantial than ‘yes’, ‘no’ ‘skull?’ etc.

The whole DK not being able to talk to NPCs was for pretty much the same reason and I had to wrack my brains to come up with someway that he could comment about the characters and situations if he was not actually in the room… or even if he was they had to be indirect comments. Hence the whole seeing through the hero’s eyes thing…. It was a headache to think through sometimes!

Because of the nature of way games like this are structured and dialogue editors, the game was edited in this order: Act 1, Act 4, Act 2, Act 3 and then a few random little dialogues, I didn’t see the battlefield stuff. The reason for that is if you get the beginning and end in place you’ve got more leeway to stretch the middle however you want. The dialogues were edited in alphabetical order rather than chronologic order, just because that’s how the dialogue editor arranges things. Again this makes for quite a few headaches.

As far as the DK goes, I am genuinely sorry if players weren’t happy with him from a dialogue point of view. His lines were an amalgamation of mine and Bron’s work, although if it’s sarcasm or nastiness (directed towards imps usually) it’s probably me… I hated them by the end, although Bron has a real softspot for them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I didn’t have that much chance to develop things story and character progression wise far from what was already there, just work with what I had. I can well believe that there were inconsistencies in the first act, as I remember there was quite a gap between editing Act 1 and then Act 4. Then of course it’s tricky to go back over previous acts because the dialogues have already been put into the game and are being translated and tested. So basically it’s pretty much a one shot deal.

I’m afraid Act 1 was a bit of an information dump from the DKs point of view trying to get in the info about soulforging, him not being able to talk and seeing through the hero’s eyes…and it’s probably the only time in the game he’s quite so helpful and informative!

Huge credit to Bron he managed to keep track of a huge array of characters and weave them into a convincing storyline which made it very interesting to work on. I hope to be used in future by Larian and to be involved with doing more original creative stuff like the novella and some of the book/letter texts I wrote. I’m always stoked when someone points out one they liked and I can proudly say to myself “that was me”. By the way has anyone come across the one detailing imps and their music? That’s one of my favourites <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway hope that’s of interest

Wow! That was a nice read.

Thanks for sharing your story of working on Beyond Divinity!



Do you mean though that you don't like IMPS? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> (Truthful awnser please)

Only because dialogue-wise it's quite difficult to make one imp sound that different from another...because...well they're not really. I did develop quite a good imp voice though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I did -- I finished Act III yesterday, right before I made this post, and as best as I can tell all of the female characters in Act III (and there are a fair number, including the witch Kiya) were men in falsetto.

Leather Raven, that was a very interesting insight into the making of the game, and I appreciate your sharing it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I had noticed the heavy amount of dialogue, actually, and had been wondering to myself about what a pain it had to be for translation teams. (That's why with DD and BD both, I don't mind when the occasional strange word or typo or bizarre turn of phrase sneaks in -- it's not as though I'd do any better translating a game into my second language, while under a deadline.)

Of course, that only addresses the writing of dialogue. It still doesn't say why the voice actors were men. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

But you don't like how they talk? TOO???/


LETS HAVE A BONFIRE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

An interesting read it was. Thank you Rhianna and Hakea. In fact, impossible to compare this conversation with a magazine interview or a developer diary.
Nevertheless, it will be a horrible lie if I say that I am not satisfied with the writings. The voice isn't that bad later but still I think the demo's voices was superior. Especially when the FMVs have the previous voice in them.


Lews:
Can't say if I like imps: haven't got an oportunity to taste them... yet.

Its worth it, come down to my Bonfire sometime.

Thanks for taking the time to post such an interesting description of the BD writing process Leather Raven. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The logistics of the whole business sound like something of a nightmare from a creative point of view. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

I realise that game writers are bound by very different production constraints than those faced by a writer of books or plays, and it must make life extremely difficult at times. Unfortunately we often don't get Collectors Editions or pre-order specials by the time games reach Australia, So, as afar as I know, we didn't get the chance to get your novella. It would have been great to see you working in an environment with more direct control.

In general though, I think that games now really do need a reasonably cinematic or theatrical style of opening that both sets the scene and grabs the players attention. BD did seem to stumble in that department. Of course not all developers can afford the sort of intros that Blizzard come out with but the opening effect can still be done in game.

DD had a rather nice "as morning breaks over the village of...." gentle style of opening which allowed us to wander around and have the scene set by a small cast of characters. We could ease our way into the game via some local quests before we got stuck into the dungeon slogs. In that respect the opening was almost identical in style to another all time favourite, the original Baldur's Gate. Right down to being set in a walled compound with a variety of buildings and open areas populated by NPCs who let you get familiar with the controls whilst also introducing you to the plot. It worked well.

Oddly enough BG2 began with the characters stuck in a dungeon (is there a pattern here? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" /> ). I didn't think it worked quite as well, but they did spice it up with some dramatic business that had the player feeling the tension of needing to get out fast before some really heavy retribution arrived on the scene.

Whatever the style, game makers should be able to afford to lavish a bit of dialogue on the opening as the majority of characters can be left behind as the story moves on.

Even games like Rise of Nations (another of my favourites) which is a strategy game with no storyline at all in the RPG sense has a superb opening logo cut-scene with some really punchy flying and then some intriguing back-scenes (using the game engine) playing behind the opening menus. It really helps set the mood.

Yet another of my favourites, Planescape Torment, had superb writing and an excellent in-game opening. I don't think that the Nameless One has many voiced lines at all in the game but when he groans and wakes up on the mortuary slab at the start it was so well done that I swear I could SMELL the preserving fluid and the rotting bandages and decaying flesh. To then hear "Hey chief..." from a wisecracking talking skull (and have that work too) was a memorable moment. To combine the creepy horror of the mortuary and the weirdly morbid predicament of the hero with a humorous sidekick and have both elements work was an amazing achievement.

But to get back onto the thread topic, PT also had some good female characters. Sheena Easton's voice overs for Annah were superb. I'd like to hear her doing a version of a DK style character.

And one more question please. What do you think about uni-sex non-speaking lead characters?

Over the years I've been women such Lara Croft, the dragon riding woman from Drakan, and various other female characters, plus numerous men such as Garrett the Thief, Denton in Deus Ex, etc. When you can choose either a preset male or female lead, or make your own, I'm equally happy with either. If I play a game twice I usually do one of each.

For me it's the story and atmosphere that rules. I'd rather give the writer the freedom to develop a strong story with decent characters than be forced to leave a hole for some sort of generic goblin basher who could be filled by anyone from a grey haired old man to a ten year old schoolgirl (although I am perhaps lucky in this regard as I am actually a grey haired old man who behaves like a ten year old schoolgirl. Gives me quite a flexible range... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> )

In some games that issue doesn't matter, and the player doesn't really miss not having a defined character, but with the plot of BD revolving around the soul forging of two seriously different people it seems a crippling handicap to the writing.

What do other players prefer?

It wasn't until I went back and played DD a little bit again, just for giggles, that I really missed hearing my character say anything in BD. (I didn't realize how much I liked that little level-up "brilliant!")

Now that I stop to think about it, I realize that 90% of the definition of any game character, to me, is always in my own head... but that my BD character is really less well-defined than most. For starters I don't like her body (I might have a few choice words to say about muscle and weight distribution on female bodies, but that's really so immaterial to the gameplay that it's not worth it and anyway at least in BD the women aren't 100% T&A, which puts them ahead of most) and, I realize now, the fact that I've never heard her speak leaves a bigger impact on me than I thought. I really felt that my DD character was a bit of a rogue who could really handle her bow, and that her adventures across Rivellon were just that: adventures. I don't feel much of anything about my BD character except that in team with the Death Knight, she's half of a killing machine. In fact, even though as a playing character I have more attachment to my hero, I think I have more of a personality attachment to my Death Knight. I mean, at least he has one...

It's all right too, I guess, but when I really put some thought into it, as I am now, I realize that this might be the source of my disconnect with BD. I was unemployed the summer I had DD, and spent ten hours at a time running through Rivellon... even though I could put the same time into BD now, I don't. I get tired of it after about two hours, and put it away for another day. It's not that BD is a bad game by any stratch of the imagination, but somehow it has failed to captivate me utterly, and I'm thinking that the characterization thing might just be why.

Me too. But games like Baldurs Gate Shadows of Amn, and many others give you a choice of (unvoiced) reply lines to allow you to develop your character in different ways. Others give a varying amount of pre-set recorded voices, which might be anything from an occasional comment throgh to reams of speech.

Beyond Divinity does seem to take a particularly "el cheapo" approach in giving your own character no options at all!

It seems a bizarre decision to use the soul-forging of two polar opposites as a central plot device, and then settle for the worst possible way of trying to develop the theme. I.e. one character completely mute and the other only able to comment out loud without having any real conversations with anyone he meets. To then miscast that voice seems about as bad as you can get when it comes to bringing the original concept to life! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Goodness knows why they didn't pick a single character approach if they weren't prepared to spend the money to get the party idea to work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

The very rough finish of the game certainly suggests a limited budget right from the start. Too many bugs, minor inconsistencies, small nagging features that don't work properly, grammatical errors and clumsy translations, etc.

My favourites include this line from the top of page 7 in the manual. In his welcome foreword Swen Vincke says:

"Don't let the myriad of features you'll see impress you." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I don't think that's what he really meant, but I'm afraid that, for the most part, they didn't impress me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Beyond Divinity added what I love in any game--humor. I found myself chuckling any number of times, mostly at the Death Knight's smart alleck remarks.

Or.. imps attacking and imps dying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

His voice was crap, you got used to it but crappy, it sounded more like - Vin Diesel wich is an crap actor also <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

"I liked the voice in the demo <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />"

//Inel.

Yeah, I started out thinking it was crap, but got used to it. Of course, I think his "bad attitude" helped. Always wanted to kill Imps. Heh.

What was frustrating, was when the main storyline would have one voice for a character, then they apparently used someone else to record further dialogue (answers to questions, talking points in a question thread, etc). Suddenly some characters voice would go from smooth or low to high and.. yuck. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

I liked him in Pitch Black <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/freak.gif" alt="" />

Me too. First time I ever saw him. Very good movie. It was my first movie, I think, that I went to without knowing what it was about (no trailer, no idea what it was about). Scared me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Some people like him, some don't. Like Steven Segal.. some like him, some don't. Of course I like him alot less knowing about his personal life. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />