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Kiya. I'm scared. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> She's a librarian, she has ALOT of data on hand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

If your disc breaks in the drive. Return it to the store. Why won't they accept it if it wasn't your fault.



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The reason Alcohol is banned, is beause (in America) it curcumvents copy protections, which is illegal.


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Razor:
Are those laws about copyright to stop lawful (or even lawful good) customers? I always thought that they are made to protect us but not to harden our life. If we try to find roots of the problem, we all 'll come up to the creation of such organistation as goverment


Alcohol is not only illegal in the US, but in Germany as well now. The laws (if you're American: DMCA - if a EU member, depends on your country) are changing now, because governments want to protect intellectual property. They were made to stop casual piracy - thus driving even legal customers into criminality.

Alcohol is not the only program - CloneCD is now, too. So companies, who have supplied customers with these programs had to take them off or modify them. Sites giving links to these programs allowing to circumvent tech measures (such as copy protection) commit a criminal offence and can be held responsible. Interesting is this: you are allowed to have the programs - but not allowed to use them. And this is inconsistent IMO.

So, now you may understand the "fuzz" in this thread. If you wish, I can post a link from a German site naming the illegal programs (in their original form). File sharing sites are facing a hard time now - if they offer this, too. Donkey, Kazaa, Morpheus etc. they will meet the court in future times (my belief). I do not know, if the programs I will name - are illegal in all countries, or if the USA has more now, according to their DMCA.

I can only give you my opinion as a librarian now (job disease, most of us respect intellectual property highly) => I have always been angered by the way intellectual property was neglected when it came to the analog/digital world. So, I'm glad, governments are acknowledging and wanting to protect at last!

But I DO understand this: Customer rights are decreased - and the "legal" backup is in a sort of grey zone (correct, Acesx?) I DO understand the frustration and insecurity lawful gamers have. The harmonisation directive of the EU wishes all EU members to egalise their CP laws - and the US have already reacted with the DMCA long before the EU. In any case => my belief is, the courts will be asked in the next time a lot to clarify. Yes, even the German courts, as our changed law still leaves a lot of questions open. Therefore I'm waiting for commentaries I ordered.
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"I have no thought at all about my own reward
I really didn't come here of my own accord"


Glad I live in Russia, where you can easily buy any CD for just 4,28 dollars.. yet, I'll never do that )) Well, maybe that's not completely true - I simply had to buy illigal copy of Photoshop, because it's too expensive


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Flash:
AFAIK there has been a court sentence here that says that a software must be taken back, if the user does not agree with the EULA, if the EULA was not readable before the software was bought (i.e. printed on the box or pinned at the wall in the store.



Can you give me the source, please, Flash? I'm still trying to track down if EULA is valid or not, as it is a shrinkwrap licence. I tried Beck (Neue juristische Wochenschrift => NJW) - as German court sentences are listed there. Preferably new judgements - no success <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />
Sorry to hear about your probs with Starforce - it works fine on my XP Home. But I didn't try the cleaner, cause I have more Starforce games on my PC and want to play them.
Kiya

NJW => is relevant for Germans only, just a link and database about German court sentences, laws, short commentaries.

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Glad I live in Russia, where you can easily buy any CD for just 4,28 dollars.. yet, I'll never do that )) Well, maybe that's not completely true - I simply had to buy illigal copy of Photoshop, because it's too expensive


Oh, Razor - Russia. Ok, I'm lost there. I gather your country has a large illegal market, hm? Russia is not part of the US or EU member laws - but I hope, your government will deal with the prof. pirates in your countries. Same goes for the Asian countries with their large illegal markets.
I'm not blaming private customers there - just hoping, intellectual property will be protected in the near future.
Kiya

Last edited by kiya; 17/07/04 05:54 AM.
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Yeah, our country has HUGE illigal market, although I don't like it..generally

Still, I am glad goverment makes first steps to protect intellectual property. Let's hope they won't leave those laws as they are now.

Last edited by RazorUED; 17/07/04 05:56 AM.

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Probably forbidden in Germany:
Daemon-Tools", "RAW CD Copy", "Exact Audio Copy", "CDex quot;,"Swiss Scout EasyScan", "DVDx", "AnyDVD", "DVD Decrypter2, "DVD Region-Free", "Virtual-CD", "Alcoholer", "CCD4-Profiler".

In the original program version forbidden:
Alcohol120%, GameJack, MovieJack, cloneCD, Movieclone, DiscJuggler, CDRWin, BlindRead/Write, CDMasterClone, DVDCopySuite, DVDRipperKit, DaViDeo, DVDShrink, SmartRipper, ClonyXXL, DVDDecrypter.

Source => http://www.hardwarejournal.de/urhebergesetz.htm

link is in German - but you can see the proggies listed there. Any Germans wanting to read the link => is quite interesting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I wonder about Nero though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> - why is it not on the list?

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Nero ain't overriding copy-protection - it just burns.

Therefore it's rather a "burner" than anything else - and you still need to make your backups on CD-RW's somwehow. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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Kiya:
Can you give me the source, please, Flash? I'm still trying to track down if EULA is valid or not, as it is a shrinkwrap licence. I tried Beck (Neue juristische Wochenschrift => NJW) - as German court sentences are listed there. Preferably new judgements - no success <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

I think I read it in a newspaper. I'm no law expert, so I have no Idea where to actually dig up that sentence. It was quite some time ago, 4-5 years probably. Wikipedia seems to agree with me, but that is of course no proof.


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I read it in a kind of Lexikon where I currently make my Internship. I don't remember the source.


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Kiya, is it true that you are a libririan? I've never seen such women, who know that much about problems of intellectual property and copyrights. Consider that a compliment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

And what about programs which are not included in the list? What if I write one myself? When do I break the law, when I install the program or when I emulate the CD? Well, probably I have too many questions... Could you give me an English link so that I could study the problem myself, without flaming on the forum?

As for Nero.. It's a wonderful MP3Pro grabber as well - on the output we have really nice sound quality (Thanks to Fraunhoffer. Looks like he is from Germany too )) and really small size. 5 min track is approx. 2,6 mb. The bitrate is to be doubled (60 kbps Pro = 128 kpbs of Lame encoder). Yes, what about such programs as CD Rippers?


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As far as I know, ripping an audio CD as MP3 is perfectly legal, if you own the original CD. But if the CD is protected and you need to break this protection to encode your CD, even if you legally own it, you break the law (in some countries).

So, problems arise when you either violate the copyright, or intentionally break some protection. You don't have options to break such protections in Nero.

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So all the Ipod's and MP3 players will become illegal too. You're right about the grey zone Kiya, and your finally getting to the point where I'm at:

The governments rushed in and made laws regarding copying without actually thinking things through. They've made a mess of everything, and it will cause no end of trouble for the courts.

Soon all copying programs may be banned, which will leave servers without a means of backing up. cool <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />


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If so, then those MP3 players will just go undeground, or they 'll find a wayout. Well, if you say that ALL copying programs will be banned, then the first thing to be banned is Windows, 'cause the copying algorithm is one of it's basic concepts. And not only Windows alone..


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now that would be logical for those politicians.
eliminate the system operation software,
and you can't do anything with the copy software also <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

next step, make computers also illegal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

if they make a copy protection who can easaly be "broken" by just 2 clicks. it ain't a copyprotection then!

remember the copyprotection of the first diablo game?
it used a 80min cd (700Mb), it was very hard to copy because back then they only had 650Mb cd's. or the 700Mb ones were to expensive at that time.

so if i can copy that diablo game with a legal burner software. right now, with a 700Mb blank cd.
Am i doing some thing illlegal?
because i bypassed that copy protection. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

(on a side note, you have the orginal game ofcours)



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@bean

You're not breaking the law by copying Diablo, yet. If the game had technology on it, to protect it from copying, then you would break the law.

Strickly speaking, you can copy any game you own, providing you duplicate the copy protection tech' as well. This must still be functional on the backup version too. However, to place such technology on a disc is a breach of your rights...

According to section 50(A) of the 1988 Copyright, Designs & Patents Act, legal purchasers of games are explicitly permitted to make backup copies of their games. This rule is applied specificly to games, and not DVD movies or music CD's. The new section of the law (296Z - section 296) states that it is now illegal to curcumvent copy proection technology of any kind.

Here's the problem:

If a publisher uses CP on their games, they are breaking the law also. It is illegal for anyone to deprive a customer of a right explicitly granted by the law. If you exercise your right to a backup, you are also breaking the law. There is no way for these new laws to co-exist, because a different section of the law is being broken by the publshers, forcing you to break section 296Z of the law. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All this info is valid in the UK

Last edited by xAcesx; 17/07/04 07:31 PM.

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Speaking about laws.
i found an interesting link on cdfreaks.com: Proposed law that would loosen tough copy controls


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xAcesx:
So all the Ipod's and MP3 players will become illegal too. You're right about the grey zone Kiya, and your finally getting to the point where I'm at:

The governments rushed in and made laws regarding copying without actually thinking things through. They've made a mess of everything, and it will cause no end of trouble for the courts.

Soon all copying programs may be banned, which will leave servers without a means of backing up


Correct - I can state inconsistency for the new German laws - so far I know that some copy programs are either removed from Germany or modified to allow further sales in Germany, the whole market is in terrible movement now. I translated parts of the German law dealing with computer programs - and am lost! IMO, at least 2 paragraphs are illogical - but I am no lawyer, so I will wait for the law commentaries I ordered via Interlibrary Lending Services. Why? Well, our library has books helping PC people to use these copy programs - and have to ensure, we are not violating the law there. As some have CD-ROM included. So, one of my colleagues and I are determined to track down now.

So far I only found this => it is illegal for a proprietor (the creator of a PC program) to forbid backup via contract. Ok, no proprietor has done this IMO - but! it is an infringement to use programs to remove or circumvent tech protection measures as well. And now? (§69f, nr 2 against §69d, number 1,2.) § 69a-g are regulations ONLY for computer programs in the German cp law. So, Acesx, the lawyers and courts will have a lot of time to amuse themselves in the near future.

@Razor - about CD Ripper programs => sorry, no knowledge. And please, don't forget this: Russia is not a member of the EU, so your regulations might be different. I only quoted the German law. I have no knowledge if WIPO, WCT and the other international agreement I quoted in my last post have been signed by your country. I have no knowledge, which agreements your country has dealing with EU member countries.
I know nothing about Russian librarians - but normally we're all a terrible nitpicky bunch, tracking down at all costs and annoying others <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> And if anyone dares to touch librarian freedom of giving access to science and knowledge => we turn from grey mice into roaring lions (as I just read the other day, when the American Librarian Association pounced upon a poor American congress woman <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> )

The only stuff I found out so far => the internet is full of differing interpretations, opinions and partly wrong quotes.

Sorry, gals and guys - as I'm not much online until September, I'm leaving this highly interesting discussion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

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Flash:
Wikipedia seems to agree with me, but that is of course no proof.

Yeah, the last part (about EULA not being valid) was already translated by me in a former post. I agree, it's no proof, therefore I'm still hunting.
Kiya

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