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[color:"red"] total re write [/color] if you dont like simple quests and so test out atlantis (its the only one i can think of at the moment)its a quest (only)game.or if hack and slash is prefered test the nevest ff (tvelve i think) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" /> [color:"blue"] viper happy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

Last edited by GOLDENSUN; 29/06/04 02:41 PM.

LET THE DRAGON RIDE THE WINDS OF THE WORLD ONCE AGAIN "THE WHEEL OF TIME"
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DUDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

use points and comma's and sutf like that, you're not making any sense (again)
where on EARTH did you learn to type/write like that. I'm not gonna guess where a sentence ends and another one begins in your test. it's just impossible


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[color:"red"] [/color] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Hi,

You are almost all forgetting one thing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" />. A a game is made to fit many different playing styles. It also has to hold the attention of thousands of people or why bother making it.
Yes, there is alot of fluff. I personally do not understand everything about the different stats and all the different equipment that can be used such as the arrows. The important thing is none of it detracts from my enjoyment of the game. Truthfully, I just ignore the things that I don't understand or that annoy me.
Both game do play as slash and hack, that was the way RPG's have been setup. If they weren't I personally would'nt be buying them. I don't want a game that I have to think very deeply about. I want to build a character that can go in the direction I want it to. I have yet to play any character in the magic realm. It is just too much thinking about spells and stuff and I always manage to get them killed off pretty fast.
The game is going to play out the way it has been programed too. All the rest is not gong to change the story or the way it goes. Much of the so called fluff is used to widen the character, to personalize it for the player.
I would like to see a game that is more streamlined. Again, BD is probably a game being used to try out new things, and actions and to see what people like and dislike. I would love to see a game, someday, that has a great indepth story and multiple lines. That has to be very expensive to do. Hopefully in the future Larian or one of the other companies will do it.
The great thing about this forum is that Larian does pay attention to our opininos, likes and dislikes.
My suggestion is to enjoy what we have and go on from there.

Shelli

Ferettmom <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kitty.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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My suggestion is to enjoy what we have and go on from there.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> i like that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



[color:"#33cc3"]Jurak'sRunDownShack!
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[color:"red"] [/color] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Hi,

You are almost all forgetting one thing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" />. A a game is made to fit many different playing styles. It also has to hold the attention of thousands of people or why bother making it.
Yes, there is alot of fluff.


I absolutely agree with what you say about games being made to suit a big audience. In fact that was at that heart of what I was saying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Game companies know that the biggest market for games is for ones that don't need a lot of deep thought or special knowledge, so there has been something of a general trend to "dumb down" games. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Now this isn't all bad, but some of us do like a bit more depth in our stories and quests - features that Divine Divinity offered, in contrast to other games of its time such as Dungeon Siege.

My feeling is that (precisely because they do need to reach a wide audience to pay for the cost of making modern games) they need to limit the depth of a lot of the effects. So we do get all the stats, modifiers etc, but at an "RPG Lite" level.

This is just my plea for games that have less mindless item collection and more interesting quests. I like to go into a new village, area, or whatever and get to know the people a bit. I like to feel that there's a real community there with some interesting stories, not just a few hundred more barrels to smash and potions to collect.

And talking of item over-kill I just killed an old guy in the catacombs, and automatically clicked to pick up all the items he dropped. On inspection this turned out to include over fifteen THOUSAND arrows! over 11,000 normal arrows alone! THe DK now has nearly 24,000 in his pack. Phew, no wonder he's looking tired around the eyes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course the comment that Jurak picked up on is dead right - let's just get on and enjoy what we've got. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I nearly abandoned after Act 1, but 2 and 3 have been a lot of fun, and I've now learned to ignore all the stuff that niggled me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

This is just my plea (polite I hope) to Larian to please keep trying to make games with a bit of depth and not end up just doing generic goblin bashing games. The market needs the variety. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Oh, and thanks to Raze and DeathAtTheDoor for the info about things you can do with some of the objects! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Trust you two guys to have figured that stuff out! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

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Hi,

This is something I'm in two minds about, so I'd welcome opinions from other players, and hopefully from some designers too.

Basically, what I'm suggesting is that not only are many RPGs are crammed to the rafters with barrel after barrel full of mostly unnecessary objects, but the padding extends to a swag of attributes, modifiers and resistances that are also mostly of very little use either.

For instance, the main Stats screen for BD lists a grand total of 34 different figures!

How many of these are actually worth our attention, and how much is really just 'window dressing' to make you feel that whole thing is deeper than it really is?

I suspect that developers know that many gamers who buy RPGs will just choose a warrior, find a big sword and some half-decent armour, and get hacking without ever worrying too much about the rest of the stuff. And you can't really afford to have too many of your paying customers getting terminally stuck half way through the game just because they neglected their Shadow resistance in favour of Fire, or just didnít rate the importance of Initiative highly enough. So for "play balance" reasons they make the effects pretty minimal. They also know that it costs extra time and money to build a game that has any genuine path divergence.

But why not just drop at least some of the fluff in favour of fleshing out the aspects might actually add real difference to the playing experience? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



This has been a problem for a long time. Hack-and-slash RPG's like Diablo and those games that were inspired by them are loaded up with useless junk that you do nothing but peddle for gold that you can't use to buy anything with. Diablo and D2 might have been popular games, but I have been saying for a few years that D2 was the worst thing that ever happened to RPG's. Every RPG since D2 has imitated D2 by loading up the game with randomly generated junk whose bonuses increase slightly throughout the game. The only exception to this was Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, which I thought was the best RPG since Baldurs Gate.

Even Neverwinter Nights followed that crappy formula. The PC RPG genre is in a horrible rut right now. Divine Divinity was the last great epic RPG, and there hasn't been one since. Every big budget is going towards either an MMORPG or a dumbed down console game like "Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel". The only exception is "Vampires: The Masquerade -- Bloodlines", which looks like it's going to be a great RPG.

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Even Neverwinter Nights followed that crappy formula.


I remember the groans of annoyance on the NWN forums over the inclusion of all that barrel smashing nonsense in that game. Barrels in the street with a small pile of gold (oh yeah, just the place to store your gold...) More barrels with one pointless item in, etc.

Why can't they put less of these stupid barrels everywhere and make the caches of goodies:

a) Less frequent.
b) More worthwhile when you actually do find them, both in quantity and quality, and
c) More appropriate to the place where you find them. Such as a pile of potions in a bedroom cupboards. Some food in a kitchen cupboard. Gold in a chest in a house somewhere, or stashed somewhere vaguely believable. The enemy you kill actually having the weapon and armour that they were using when they fought you! etc.
d) Less random nonsense such as enemy insects carrying suits of armour.
e) Above all, more imaginative and carefully crafted work, and less randomly generated drivel.

Please. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

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I still haven't been able to force myself to go through more BD, but yes, I agree -- it is unnecessarily convoluted. The stat figures are becoming plain aggravating, and I won't waste your time by venting my irritation at the sheer abundance of useless items lying around on the ground and in containers. They have ceased being "atmospheric" long ago, and have become nothing more than obstacles -- I'd like to click on the critter to attack, please, not click on yet another useless junk. Quality, not quantity; sometimes I feel the overabundance of useless numbers and items are hiding a lack of substance.

I also maintain that BD, IMO, could use a lot of polish. If someone where to take pruning shears through it and cleaned up some of the clutter, it might have become actual entertainment as opposed to the chore it is to me at the moment.

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Even Neverwinter Nights followed that crappy formula.


I remember the groans of annoyance on the NWN forums over the inclusion of all that barrel smashing nonsense in that game. Barrels in the street with a small pile of gold (oh yeah, just the place to store your gold...) More barrels with one pointless item in, etc.

Why can't they put less of these stupid barrels everywhere and make the caches of goodies:

a) Less frequent.
b) More worthwhile when you actually do find them, both in quantity and quality, and
c) More appropriate to the place where you find them. Such as a pile of potions in a bedroom cupboards. Some food in a kitchen cupboard. Gold in a chest in a house somewhere, or stashed somewhere vaguely believable. The enemy you kill actually having the weapon and armour that they were using when they fought you! etc.
d) Less random nonsense such as enemy insects carrying suits of armour.
e) Above all, more imaginative and carefully crafted work, and less randomly generated drivel .

Please. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


Yes, thank you. I'm tired of randomly generated cookie-cutter crap too.

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Here's an honest idea that I hope someone at Larian takes a fancy to:

A US Army squad enters a cave in the Balkans, touchs a glowing stone, and is suddenly transported into a Divine Divinity-esque setting, facing off monsters, wizards, with M16s etc. Sorta like Jagged Alliance meets Diablo, but with a story line like Baldur's Gate... They have to find the right wizard, glowing stones, etc... to be transported back to their own plane of existence. I wonder what the M2 Barrett would do to the demon Samuel? So Larian, PLEASE... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for the stats issue, I agree. There really isn't much need for all of the fluff unless you really want to get into the minutia of it. Just Conan the thing and it's OK. I would have liked to see more magical stuff like telekinesis (especially in the Citadel's Arms Shop) but only for those that play as magic wonks. It would not be available to the warrior, but maybe the thief (who would have to distract the shop keep, and then quickly pick a lock). This would make the character creation process important in that it would have a real effect in the game.

As for stats and skills, there are a multitude of things that most fantasy RPG have never explored; I would like to see clairvoyance, mind reading, mind control, being able to drug someone's drink, using intimidation as a factor in how NPCs respond (like if Conan vs Harry Potter is asking you to give him your seat, who would you give it to without hesitation?). I'm frankly also surpised that just about every RPG gamer has to dress the same way. Armor, Shield, Helmet, Belt, Two Rings, Necklace, Gloves and Boots. What about stuff like the "Far Sighted Monocle" to see through walls or the "All Hearing Earring" to eavesdrop? How about a metal smithing skill to blend the properties of armor or magical jewelry? BD tries to acknowledge this with the embellish and sharpen skills, but does not go far enough. How about crushing Five emeralds, mixing with sulfer, and applying it to your armor to make it poison resistant, and if your skill is not good enough, you risk degrading your armor? This is just off the top of my head but the list can go on...

These fantasy RPGs have been stagnated around a formulaic approach that no one wants to venture from. And I agree, there MUST be a compelling story line or else the thing is a D2 clone. Kill monster, move to next level, kill more monster, move to final level, kill big monster. Thank you, that'll be $49.95 please. Fresh ideas are not really coming out from developers and I find it very disappointing.

Ralph


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"...My quick barrel-tossing skills laid a waste to all the poor citadel guards. I killed Fergus with a washing basket..."

Did anyone try to play through the game using a cooking pan? Interestingly enough, you can "sharpen" it to up it's damage rating too. Just wondering how ridiculous you can play this thing.

Ralph

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Hi Kris,
I may be showing my age but have you ever tried a game called Daggerfall. How you develop you're character is very important to how quest givers will react to you and wether or not they will talk/give a quest to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />This game was the very first RPG that I ever played and I still go back to it, although the graphics are a little tired now. The thing I've always liked best in this game is that with enough gold selling the useless items you pick up you can buy a horse to get around town on (much quicker than walking), a house to sleep and store items in etc. (a LOT of gold is needed i.e. a Lot of useless items that are not useless now they are needed). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kitty.gif" alt="" />
Anyone else out there remember this game? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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Hi Floreat
I am a young player and yet even i remember Dagger Fall i also know that Morrowind also from the Elder Scrolls series is better by far than daggerfall and if you guys are really looking for a new game to play that has more story then it does crap try Morrowind it is a purely non linear game in that u dont even have to do the main quest to beat the game if u are smart stats and things do actually make a huge difference in ur playstyle and there are a good amount of skills u will actually use
But any ways enough supporting other companies BD could have had a good story if they werent more focused on making D2

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> if u are looking for a really really good RPG try Fable for the Xbox when it comes out in september this is a direct qoute from a developer "I was watching one of our testers play and i noticed he had married the mayors daughter and then asked the myor to go to the forest with him so they could talk. He then killed the mayor went back to town and killed his wife. I couldnt figure out why he did this but then i realized that because of the marriage he would inherit the mayors lands. The crazy thing is this actually worked he got the lands." i cant think of a game thats gonna be better for hardcore RPG gamers like myself than one that responds correctly to what u do

-Drizzt


A flash of the lightning, A break of the wave, he passes from life, to rest in the grave. " Mortality"
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To answer the question from the title of this thread : Well, it dedpends from which tradition among role-playing you come from (and what you like to play, of course).

There's the tradition of the "Hack 'n' Slay" (H/S) games, nowadays developed into the "Action-RPG" sub-genre, and there is the tradition of story-telling rather than emphasizing combat. This leads for example to PS:T and the Realms of Arcania series.

Also, there's the fraction of people liking games which incorporate lots of statistics. WiSim's, for example ("WiSim is a German Acronym for "Wirtschafts-Simulation" and means games where you are a leader of a company, influencing economy).

These are the main traditions in RPG gaming nowadays, and the current games are normally more or less a mixture of these.


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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