Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General A step backwards

this quote in relation to =>

Sorry, you took my link this way, Lego. I thought it fitted very well to your 1st quote I listed. Same goes for my comment: "We're all talking, who is listening?"
I understand your previous posts in the way how BD was designed, it didn't fully meet your way to play (on the fly) - and it misses "polish", due to various code programs errors, linearity etc. Lack of documentation for a few game features => legitimate points out of your view and how you would like to play a game. And you made suggestions how to "make ends meet" ("improve" as you called it).

So, my link didn't not deal with the content of what you posted but was a general plea to all => please, take a look into NVC methods, so both sides (pros/cons BD) are able to understand the other side - without having to agree or give up their opinion about how a game should be by personal opinion.

Did I miss anything now? In relation to how you would like BD to be in order for you to have a full game fun?
Kiya

no kiy -
no damage done. my remark was merely that at the point of my response, 5 of 6 posts had had nothing to do with the original post - thus seeming to lead this in a different direction.
whether that is good or bad is not the issue, it's just the truth of the matter.
i think your links are a very valid contribution.
if i thought steve57 (original poster) was still around reading this, i would suggest a new thread for your links - but i doubt he still is. steve?
...so it may as well stay put.
better?

yes, better and clearer to me, thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

A new thread with positive feedback would be welcome.
Since a few days there are only posts with negative feedback.

Beyond Divinity is not 100 % perfect but it's a great game with very good new features.
Why the people don't talk about these new features ?

Why the people always compare Beyond Divinity to other games as Divine Divinity, Diablo, Sacred, etc. ?

Barta

that one's an easy one for me barta.
there are definitely people who play and enjoy games on their (the games) own merit, but i would hazard a guess that most do not.
a lot has to do (i think) with the competitive nature of people (guys particularly). we play to win. thus creating 'best'/'worst' (first place, last place).
this attitude creates hierarchy among similar items (there IS a reason all these games fall into the RPG genre). vanilla over coffee, coffee over chocolate, chocolate over peach, peach over split-pea. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
this is for many people a way of keeping 'order' to their lives, if not just gaming experience.
it's far from inherently bad.
few are the people who actually complain about the game as a whole - it's elements of the game they'd like to see improve (some of this is objective, some subjective).
i have no problem stating that the best color in the world is green. but another may have a differing (and valid) opinion, (say) red. while yet others view all colors as equally pleasing.
these points of view are all valid, just different. but my guess is that most would agree green is by far the prettiest of all. ha!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

does this make sense?

@ Lego

I am a woman and i also play to win.
In Beyond Divinity i choosed the higher level of difficulty to be more happy when i beat the ennemies.

I enjoyed playing Divine Divinity and Beyond Divinity equally.
I can make a list of features i liked in Divine Divinity which are not in Beyond Divinity.
And i can make a list of features i liked in Beyond Divinity which are not in Divine Divinity.

It is important that Larian knows what people like or dislike in their games.
Not to do better games but to do games that the customers would like.

What i am reading in this thread, it's just people complaining.
Nothing constructive for the future ! (I am not talking of your posts Lego)

If i was a Larian, i would be very depressed to see how the people react in this forum.

I repeat it : a new thread with the things that the people like in the game and the things that the people don't like, would be more constructive.

Barta

Total agreement...I purchased BD game, believing it would be an expansion of the Divine Divinity (excellent game), and nothing at all alike. Believe the studio would have been better off to name this game something else, it does not compare to the Divine Divinity, at all. Gossip says there may be a Divine Divinity II, and if this is so, hope so much it is an expansion of Diving Divinity. This is Internet Gossip on a Divine Divinity II. But, the failure of this game may stop a lot from buying another game such as this....(Heck, music alone would be worth the Divine Divinity purchase!!)

i am so absolutely amazed with this thread and the level and direction of the responses.
it's almost as though the posts aren't even being read.




there is no one out there who doesn't recognize the (apparent) inconsistency of loving the color green, yet despising split-pea?!?!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

=> I do
Kiya

If Divine Divinty 2 is merely an "expansion" to the first game, I will be disapointed. Very disapointed.

I'll start with what I like in BD. I apologise in advance for the length:

pause function - so I can plan my combat strategy in peace (chars heal, get new commands for spells, skills etc.) Hey, give cowardly, nervous, cheesy gamers a chance <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

icons as active commands in combat - I can assign and choose them out of an array of icons myself, so I have the one with the best recognition effect, as I am a visual gamer. Abstract commands, such as F-keys confuse my memory, specially when I'm nervous - though I always make a list of key controls and have that next to the PC when I'm playing. I need mnemotechnique to recognise a non-combat key control => m-map; i-inventory etc)

target unto NPC circle - even though the circle give the game an artificial touch => as soon as I see the circle highlighting+the description as well, I target with CTRL, unpause and watch

one-click for conventional combat - yes, I detest clicking parties. One click to fight and then I watch. I wish, this would be possible for magic as well - but as a lot of magic spells in BD have a temporary aspect, would be of no use to have the one-click-method as well. And I would have to watch the mana bar closely, so constant control by clicking magic is better.

task bar in upper right corner - this control center was small, so I saw a lot of the game environment => good. Being used to Div, my eyes sort of sunk to the lower part. This took me some time to get used to (health, mana bar). Why? Well, lower part and keeping my keyboard in my view at the same time was easier for me. But I got used to it => see? Upper right corner+combat key controls in RL without pause => death, reload etc. for me, as I don't sit properly, I crouch on my chair when playing - typos. So, icons+pause were the only way for me to survive this game (Lego <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ) - if the control center would have been in the lower part => maybe I would have tried your favourite combo => but NOT in RL!

habit control by right click on portrait - I like this sort of uber-control to put my chars into aggressive/normal/peace mode for each one seperately. Allows a wide range for my approach, depending on being in a very dangerous area or not. And I was glad, there were not too many variations, as this would put me into a decision conflict.

single/party controls - I liked that one very much, as I often had my chars wide apart. So, parking one char in a relatively safe area in agressive mode to defend himself and concentrating on my moving single char only (specially in my favourite sneak technique) was fine.

sneak - gee, the very first game, where I turned into a sneaky sneaker! Sneaking up to a red cross (enemy) on the minimap, scrolling and searching with my mouse in the dark, until I found the circle or the description and then giving my "fire" command (CTRL) was maybe cheesy, but fun. Then moving a few steps in sneak again, the enemy stopped, I targeted again - or sneaked slowly back to my other char, so he would run up in aggressive mode and finish off. Those gargoyles in the maze/Act 1 => sneak up, target, she follows. My DK was in sneak as well and attacked her from behind, but the gargoyle concentrated in my main char. So, she kept fluttering after my main char and the DK chopped her up from behind: I laughed my head off. Those terrible Blood Knights in Act 3 => I killed them all in my single assassina method, those blokes had no chance. And I liked this as well => sneak+spiritual hammer to stun from ranger char. My melee char ran up and fought - ranger char kept on stunning other enemies in the meantime - and lead them to the melee char. I only needed to concentrate my sight on the melee char's health bar and pause the game to give him potions. My sneak char was safe. Ah, the beauty of sneak <drool>

Some gamers stated, this game does not require tactic - and I often wondered how "tactic" is defined. My definition: very strong enemies, I can't simply chop up in melee but have to think how to defeat them: Blood Knights, crystal gargoyles, skeleton mages (in the beginning), shadow creatures, fire demons - and specially the ones still giving me the creeps => earth elementals. Or the clerics in the BF with their stun spell. I kept my chars pretty weak (in the sense of not overpowered), so I had more fun and challenge. And I liked boss enemies => Shaman, Bishop, Sammy and the last one in the game. Trying out several techniques and watching the result. Didn't keep me from cussing though.

combat skills - I'm not the gamer to try out everything and jot down which approach has which advantage. I went for bow (my char appeared simply elegant with that) - yes, the variety of attributes I had to fill with rare skill pts confused me at first and brought me into a decision hell - but the effect was amazing for me, specially reload time in combo with agility. My DK was a simple 2-hander and I thought for a long time: critical hit or deathblow? what is better? => and here I wished for a better documentation/description. Why? Well, I'm not a combat gamer, relations are not clear to me always. Same for point-blank in bows. As I played English and German, didn't understand either description, I tried trial/error method.

mage skills - I liked the nature spells very much, and the graphical effects

skill table - wuff, the first time I opened it to get a complete overview by activating the tiny overview: I gasped and said => nope, I'll never find through that maze. I'll never understand. Heavens! How complicated. I spent about 1-2 hrs jotting down skills I wanted to learn - some out of curiosity, some because I thought, they'd be as important as in Div. So, I already made my choices in mind how to build up my char - though she still stood in that prison cell - a weak little worm. As very few skills are available from the start, I reloaded several times to find out which combo was suitable for me => warrior/survivor, because of the starting skills I wanted to have from scratch. And then I played and consequently built up my chars as I wanted them. My DK was going to be a 2-hander, so I didn't waste any skill pt until I had the 2-hand skill. My archer had ranged weapons from the start. I consequently kept to my line, didn't buy all skills, as I didn't want to tempt myself to go astray. Yes, I liked this skill table afterwards - like a banquet for 300 persons and me being on a strict diet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Graphics+zoom+change of appearance due to equipment => I liked that. I liked shadow armour, the way my char changed, I zoomed a lot to admire beauty. Call me morbid, but I spent a lot of time watching a zoomed cobweb, Tibar or a Lava Crawler (the way, they moved their stalked eyes) - tried to decipher scrawls on altars, boulders. Took up the ornaments, zoomed into NPC, to admire them. I made a Barbie fashion session and spent hrs deciding if my char looked better in blue or in yellow rag leggings, which helmet suits her white hair etc. I loved the way, my char animated bow attack - her pose. Gee, those splitting arrows, the glittering poison ones. They way, they flew to their target.
I wished for black leather instead of brown. In general, it amazed me to see the changes, when I dressed her up. I wished for long hair (as in Div), contribution restriction to 3D animation, I guess. Though, in Spellforce I have the same and my char has waistlong white hair there.

creatures Morbid, dangerous and sweet (partly). Strange creatures - did anyone watch the way the lava was designed on the fire elementals? In zoom range? The variations of the Shadow Creatures? 2-legged, 4-legged (my favourites) - even flying ones? and here I needed the space bar again => to zoom in and look at them entirely, as hostiles didn't allow me to observe them in peace. Did anyone SEE the Raanaar symbols in zoom state on a Raanaar priest? Did anyone simply concentrate on one creature and watch their pathfinding? Some in circles, some in spirals, some to and fro etc. I laughed at the racing snails and zoomed into find out how many variations existed - went into peace mode at once, so I would not hurt a single guinea pig. The more friendly creatures I had, the more I had to simply observe. Yes, this is not playing in an active way - maybe unimportant for the majority of gamers => but I'm stating my way, right? I am probably unique as Lego stated, but these are the points keeping me hooked to a game: a whirling, alive world I can watch - just watch and see varieties. Wonder at the creativity and imagination the artists created - and puzzling, how this can be programmed? I don't need to run around all the time and DO something.
I didn't like the clumpy feet of the gargoyles/Raanaar, because I considered them a bit too large => contribution to 3D? Same for my char's feet => too huge. Sandals didn't show up on her, only shoes/boots (in blue at the beginning. Aestethics and consistent appearance are important for me).

environment - soooooo many details: steam, lava blubs, teeth on the walls. So many colours and variations - the poison on the large mushroom in Act 2 - the variety of crystals in Act 3. Yes, I went into zoom again to find out more. the imp huts - the way they were carved. Those knotted, gnarled, bizarre trees etc.

[color:"yellow"]Where I wish improvement:[/color]
pathfinding - I had this in several occasions (older versions) => important NPC were in the Black part, so I had to reload. I don't mind unimportant enemies and creatures there, I mind it if I can't play, because I can't speak to an important NPC. Same goes for leaks - where NPC are in rooms I can't reach, because they are supposed to be in another room. So, NPC I have to talk to would be standing, the rest can hop around?

circles - I wish for a different colour when it comes to NPC I need to talk to. So, green for friendly, red for hostile and maybe blue for the other ones giving a sub quest - and maybe yellow for those with a main plot quest? It was difficult for me to find them in a crowd. Guard Laurel, Rupert, weapon officer, the imps Stignix, Chieftain's son, Imp Hero. The Raanaar rebels needed more distinction IMO.

leading char - I think the yellow frame for the leading char was too weak in a graphical sense. A stronger colour might make it easier for a gamer to see, who is leading - so it is better to find out why the damn alchemy doesn't work or why I suddenly can't sharpen my weapon etc.

inventory - I miss a feature to see all at one glance additionally. Yes, I know, we had that in the original version, was changed due to gamer pack rats (no offence meant, I like this word) - but I am a tidy gamer and work with a few items, neatly placed in rows. I miss admiring my total treasure... I need to keep in mind where an item is now, instead of building my usual rows: quest items together e.g. As quest items are not in one place if it is a weapon e.g. And I have to keep the left upper corner in all sections clean now, so I see which item I acquired. IN the old inventory, I had all at one glance and saw the new comer at once. No, not going back to the original way, but as an addition.

game balance - oh dear, this made me really sad. Due to gamer wishes (! Yeah, I'm unforgiving), features were added (1.4x) and one has consequences now, the original didn't have => skill/spell books. If you bought a skill from the BF trader (they have far more skills now. New ones per act and more. In the original game they had the same for all 4 acts) => and didn't max it out with your skill pts, then you are in trouble as soon as you open some skill/spell book: your skill/spell level cap is reduced to the one of the book. As you can't re-buy this skill/spell in the current act, you're stumped. Not important? HA! You can create permanent potions at alchemy lvl 4 if you have the holy water bowls, but there are 2(?) books in the game with this skill. And as the last one is in Act 4.... If it is possible: these 2 books should be taken out now, or have the same level as Annabelle sells. Or, if possible, the books should NOT take away the max level the gamer has - or have no impact, if the gamer has a higher level. This is no CPE IMO - or is it one? The program worked as it should in the original version, but this work now disturbs due to new features. I don't think it is a CPE, but I am no tech crack.

explanations - if a manual can't include everything (maybe due to later game decisions - I wish for a read-me. Or as an additional possibility: NPC in the game explaining something => alchemy e.g. The hermit could have explained this and the importance of the holy water bowl. Rune charms: as they changed during the versions, read-me would have helped for those not liking to experiment as I prefer to. If some skills appear with a spartanic description and gamers have problems => read-me again. Is this difficult to include? A cumulating list in the read-me file? Gamers could print it out and use it as an additional manual.


code program errors - I dislike the word "bugs", why? Well, it is used in a inflationary way here on the forum. A lot is put into the section "bug" and is game design (like it or not). As a gamer was so kind to give me this definition => a program does not work as it is meant to, I will use CPE (code programm error).
Lockpick is a broken skill - it is unimportant compared to Div, but should be fixed.
quest log is unwilling - some quests don't show up, therefore I miss XP and rep. (ok, rep is unimportant in BD, but still...) - it is too linear IMO. If I pick up an item without quest - why do I have to drop it and pick it up again, so that stupid log understands? I don't know how to phrase this differently, maybe the log is unimportant for this, and the cause lies in the program... As the log works in the German version, I consider missing quests a CPE.
objects are falsely named in rare cases, thus making it impossible for a gamer to complete a quest. I have seen 2 saves from gamers with this problem.
cut scenes - no, this is not good, even if I can work around it. They shouldn't hang. How many? 2? Not much, but still a CPE.
Crashes - no! Not nice, spoils the fun. I didn't encounter them though, but I read the forum.
leaks don't know if this is a CPE, but I had a save from a gamer who couldn't proceed in the main plot, because she "leaked" through a wall and therefore triggered quest 2 without completing quest 1. There was NO workaround to complete quest 1, it was a main plot quest. If important NPC leak through a wall and are unreachable => terrible consequences. And I have read about other gamers with this problem.
arrow damages - well, if it is for my own profit, I don't mind if an arrow gives a different damage than listed, but it does confuse me if I WANT to inflict a certain damage and my arrow doesn't care.


A lot of bugs have been crushed already, but the game still has some - and all I can ask for is this: Any potential buyer reading my elogy => PLEASE, patch after install immediately. Even the best patch doesn't help, if you run into old bugs and play the original version.

@Barta => is this enough? Too much?
Kiya <exhausted>

I'm currently reading through it ...

I'd like to have an underlying turn-based system which allows me - as the player - to play either in turn-based mode or in realtime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

That's because I like to plan in turn-based games. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> (Loved the Age of Wonders series <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Alrik.

EDIT : I'm now through it. It allsounds very reasonable to me, so I can understand the points (even considering that I still haven't played the game yet ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> )

[color:"#33cc33"] Green is my favorite color! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

because everybody is saying what he thinks is good or bad i will do this as well. first: i think DD and BD are both wonderfull games. DD i think is the best one, but that is probably because i played that as the first one. if i would have played BD first i think i would liked BD the most. because in both games my mouth just fell wide open when i saw how everything fitted togheter perfectly, the sound, the gameplay, just everything. and for that i think the guys from larian studios deserve a statue or something.second: yes it is true that in BD you need to pause the game more, to organise everything in a big fight. But i rather see a challenge in it. and when it is paused you see a lot more of detail in the game or it can result in some nice screens when you paused the game during a fight. i think the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> games are one of the best rpg's i have ever played ( believe me i play a lot). so again another statue for larian studios. so guys if you read this, keep making those wonderfull games !!! I LOVE THEM !!!!

da sleeper


Forget about the statue. I guess that the Larians would prefer bottles of champagne. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" />

Barta

Hey, I'll take the statue! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Glad lots of other people besides me like the games, some people think CP is everything. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Champagne over here please! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

And thank you for the nice words regarding our games, it's really appreciated.

Negative remarks are welcome too, we learn from this for our future games.
But... positive remarks are a bit more cool <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

A bit? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I really WANTED to Like this Game. I did not Play Divine Divinity but HEARD from several who said it was GOOD.
My Problem with BD is:
1.Inventory: Never have seen one this Unmanageable and Qirky. Its Pure Hell to try and Keep track of things. Not only that but when You Trade You BETTER remember WHAT You have equipped because it LUMPS it all there to Trade. And,Your Side Kick doesn't Have a SEPARATE Inventory when he Trades Either--it ALL shows---TOO easy to get rid of Stuff You are wearing.

2. MISS Something a WAYS back? Just try and get it. This thing Moves you in Jumps & jerks and even IF you discover You Missed something ( Like I missed the 1st Battlefield Key in the START area--Now i cannot Find ANYWAY to get back there.

3.Why is it that If you Left Click on Water,ale,any liquid,YOU Drink it--But it doesn't work for FOOD.

4.TRADING is the most Tedious I have ever seen in a game--Prone to allow you to make mistakes too easily.

5. Encumbrance: Makes NO sense--Says I can Carry 800--yet IF I get to 469 I AM ENCUMBERED!

I'll Stop here. Maybe Someone will point out some things that will make me understand what it is about the Game that will Make some Sense---Perhaps I will Start Over--that would be a FIRST for me --but I'm Willing if necessary. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

2. MISS Something a WAYS back? Just try and get it. This thing Moves you in Jumps & jerks and even IF you discover You Missed something ( Like I missed the 1st Battlefield Key in the START area--Now i cannot Find ANYWAY to get back there.
----

I wonder if thats why they included it 2ce?


you need to be sleeping for it. So much food, makes you tired. Full stomache.


I wish I got a message saying I can carry something. I just do the math in my head. Always works out. So I can't explain what that is.




Good thing I remember a lot. Never had a problem.



Same comment.



Now I'll say this. I am sorry that your having problems with the game, and I hope you can enjoy it. I know I have when I play. If only hardcore was so tough! Why isn't it easier!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hope the rest of the problems get fixed.