Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#312732 02/08/05 05:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Morbo Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2003
Bush: Intelligent Design Should Be Taught

Sometimes I don't understand those extremist that just ignore common sense.

Now I remember my science teacher saying "You should always examine every theory because if the theory is false it instant nobel price time".

So i have a fairly open mind. I've even read books that suggest that live on earth stated on Mars. But what all these books would have in common. They were scientific books that used FACTS to underline their case.

On the other hand we got a bearded man that created the entire universe in 6 days because he was bored. NO FACTS just FAITH

FAITH != FACT

Basicly what I am saying is sure there might be faults in evolution or the big bang theory but it's the best we got right now. (BTW natural selection is a FACT in the evolutionary theory Evolution isn't just about natural selection. Natural selection is just one piece. Evolution has three main components:
1) Mutation, the ultimate creation of diversity
2) Selection, which acts as a nonrandom filter to select certain mutations and remove others.
3) Drift, which is a consequence of a finite population size). My problem with people who believe creationism is that they completely ignore things like that the earth is more then 6000 years old (FACT) and tiny things as fossils. It's like arugueing with some one that believe the moon landing never took place.

Now I have been brought up in a Christian family. But in my opinion the values of the bible are the important parts (old testament is crap, I am a new testament guy). And then there are the hypocryts who use faith as a knife to get ahead politically.


Last edited by Morbo; 02/08/05 07:04 PM.

Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
The trouble is with facts is that somewhere along the line someones proves them wrong and we have another fact. The problem with faith is that it can't be proven. The problem with religon is that they believe is everyone other than their own followers are damned.

The bible is interpreted differently and is a collection of opinions, nothing more. People see the same event differently, some are better writers than others, and so on...


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: Nov 2003
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Nov 2003
The problem is that we have 1000's of years of religious fervour that will not be de-programmed in just a couple of hundred years.

Because we had little or no scientific knowledge back then to explain why we were here and where did we come from, religion/faith was born.

Most people need a reason to be, and a destination after they die, because to fathom the end is just nothingness is a bitter pill to swallow.

Personally that's exactly how I think it is. I have no religion, and don't believe in an afterlife or reincarnation.

...and I'm not 'lost', in need of guidence, depressed, sad etc etc.
I'm perfectly fine!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Evolution is the way to go!

Joined: Aug 2004
U
veteran
Offline
veteran
U
Joined: Aug 2004
Quote
The theory of intelligent design says life on earth is too complex to have developed through evolution, implying that a higher power must have had a hand in creation.


Is it just me who feel this is the idiot's explanation of the creation of life, and is it just me who isn't really suprized that George W Bush is the president who feel this should be taught in school?

Übereil


Brain: an apparatus with which we think we think.

Ambrose Bierce
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
If life is too complex to evolve on its own here, then its far more likey that other life forms (or aliens) tampered with the genetics of earlier life. This would also explain things like: The missing Link or paintings by cavemen of spacemen.

You have to wonder how we define a god? What is it, and what is the criteria of a god. What does it take to be a god then?


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: Aug 2004
U
veteran
Offline
veteran
U
Joined: Aug 2004
Quote
The missing Link or paintings by cavemen of spacemen


What paintings <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />???

Übereil


Brain: an apparatus with which we think we think.

Ambrose Bierce
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
The were paintings found in a couple of caves of people is space suits, and a flying disc. Can't remember where though


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: Mar 2003
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Quote
The problem with religon is that they believe is everyone other than their own followers are damned.


Ok first of all sorry to be blunt but that is not true. Of some religions yes it is but not most.

[rant]

Now I have a little argument for the materialists in the crowd to consider...Creationism, I first of all do not believe that this is the case, I am not too stubborn to accept for example that the world is millions/billions of years old.

As background I have studied Biology, Chemisty, Physics quite alot I spent 3 years working on a Biology degree before changing my mind and getting one in Philosophy instead.

That said I do believe in evolution, not because it is a supposed fact (as mentioned earlier facts tend to be disproved) but because it makes sense and you can see the trends throughout our history. But consider the argument of intelligent design, a guiding hand aiding the development of life.

Picture this, a father is teaching his son to ride a bike, if he leaves the training wheels on he controls everything...the kid wont fall, he also wont learn. The second father tells his son to go outside and ride the bike...no training wheels no teaching. The third father goes out with his son and sets him on a bike while holding the seat eventually letting go and the child learns.

To explain: The first...creationism...contradicts modern sciencentific theory hard to justify a theory that contradicts what we experience. The second is evolution in the purely material sense of thinking. No guidance no help, likely to fail. The third, intelligent design, the creation of a system either constantly guided or set in motion by a divine being.(whatever that may be)

There is proof that Creationism is flawed, I do not believe that the world was for example created in 7 days ( I am catholic for reference) However I see nothing in modern science to contradict the idea of Intelligent design, I will admit that it is difficult if not impossible to argue against the idea, after all how do you prove that the system you are within is controlled, or not, from without.

That said I have already eliminated Creationism as a viable idea and we are left with two more. Lets take a look at a purely physical/material world. The idea is stimulating and very attractive at first glance. In theory with enough time and advances in our scientific capability we would know the future!!! Outrageous you claim? Impossible you say?? In a purely material world all things are broken down to chemical/physical/biological interactions/reactions. If all this is based on universal rules (i.e. gravity, reaction laws) all we would have to do is input a start point into the supercomputer in the sky and BAM!!! The future history of the world is at your fingertips...

If youve followed me this far I daresay please continue a little longer! That is not the most troubling thing to me...formulate in your mind your conception and ideas on things like Justice and Free Will. Seriously stop and Consider what you think of them, thier value. If all things are physical and all things are therefore based on predictable physical actions they cease to exist or at least cease to matter. If our actions are not based on choice how can we be held responsible for them? If we had no choice but to act as we did how can we punish people for what they do? They couldnt have done otherwise?? Free will in this case would exist only as an illusion, I daresay no one on this forum could logically and believably deny their own free will...

This all has lead me to believe that there is something spiritual in the world, there must be something that transcends the purely physical, I cannot refute that I make my own choices...after all I could have chosen not to write this at all!!

[/rant]

And top it all off with an appropriate quote!

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!" -- As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? -- Thus they yelled and laughed.
The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him -- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us -- for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars -- and yet they have done it themselves.

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"

[Source: Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125; Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.]


Last edited by NeroJB; 03/08/05 08:34 PM.
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Germany, Mainz
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Germany, Mainz
Quote
and tiny things as fossils.


God has a strage sense for Humor, so he burried all the Fossils in the Mud after he has created the earth, and then he said, Ok, let us wait for the next 6000 years.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


Last edited by Stone; 03/08/05 08:34 PM.

Das Ganze ist mehr als die Summe seiner Teile(Aristoteles)
Aber wenn man das einzelne nicht mehr beachtet, hat das ganze keinen Sinn mehr (Stone)
Joined: Mar 2003
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Quote
Quote
and tiny things as fossils.


God has a strage sense for Humor, so he burried all the Fossils in the Mud after he has created the earth, and then he said, Ok, let us wait for the next 6000 years.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



That would be a creationists reasoning I believe...

Joined: Aug 2003
Morbo Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2003
To me God is the initial event. No matter how much sience can explain things (12 dimentions that caused the big bang) you always have the question "Where did that came from?" God to me is the event that happend billions of billions of years ago that started it all. "Action 0" causes a reaction that causes action 1 that causes action 2 ... . Well this is nothing like "god created everything in 6 days" (anyhow how would you measure a day if he hadn't created light yet. ) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />


Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Support
Offline
Support
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
[color:"orange"]That said I do believe in evolution, not because it is a supposed fact (as mentioned earlier facts tend to be disproved) but because it makes sense and you can see the trends throughout our history.[/color]

By definition, you can not disprove facts. You can disprove a theory or explanation, but if you disprove a 'fact', then obviously it was not a fact in the first place.

Evolution is a fact, since there are known cases within recent (in geological terms) history. The example I vaguely recall was a bird being introduced to an island by explorers a few hundred years ago, which developed a different beak to adapt to the available food sources (I think it became shorter and stronger, to break nuts which were tougher to crack than their normal food).

The issue with evolution is whether or not it can, in and of itself, explain all the observed diversity in the world. There are some scientists that question this, but I never bothered to look into their arguments.


[color:"orange"]However I see nothing in modern science to contradict the idea of Intelligent design[/color]

There is none, and there very likely never will be. In order to disprove intelligent design, you have to understand everything, to show that everything has progressed as would be expected from natural causes. Even then, our current understanding of all physical laws breaks down in a singularity. Despite various theories on what may have caused the big bang, or what may have existed before it, there is no way to prove them, so (as Morbo said) there will always be an opening for both creationism and intelligent design.


[color:"orange"]I will admit that it is difficult if not impossible to argue against the idea, after all how do you prove that the system you are within is controlled, or not, from without.[/color]

Philosophers have been doing so for eons....


[color:"orange"]If all this is based on universal rules (i.e. gravity, reaction laws) all we would have to do is input a start point into the supercomputer in the sky and BAM!!! The future history of the world is at your fingertips...[/color]

This was not an uncommon belief a hundred years ago, before the development of quantum mechanics. It is physically impossible to know all of the initial conditions, even if you had the formulas to plug them into.

Even on a non-atomic scale, there are systems which show extreme dependence on initial conditions (chaos theory). Even with a very accurate starting point, there are some things which are random or can not be measured, which can have a significant impact. With the weather being the most obvious example of a chaotic system, the common example of chaos theory is that a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a storm half way around the world.


[color:"orange"]And top it all off with an appropriate quote![/color]

That reminds me of a related quote;

"God is dead"
- Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882

"Nietzsche is dead"
- God, 1900

Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Québec
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Québec
Morbo, you please me with that subject! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />
It is a pain that I don't have the time to read & answer well yet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> But... I will be back soon!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Quote
The example I vaguely recall was a bird being introduced to an island by explorers a few hundred years ago, which developed a different beak to adapt to the available food sources (I think it became shorter and stronger, to break nuts which were tougher to crack than their normal food).

Such experiences & observations were made involving several species. What is the most perticular with the bird experiments that you talk about is that it was on those finches from the different Galapagos Islands (among a few other species) that Darwin funded its theory on the origin of species by the natural selection; and that confirmed it several times after.


LaFille, Toujours un peu sauvage.
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Germany, Mainz
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Germany, Mainz
Quote
That would be a creationists reasoning I believe...


No, this is an atheistic sarcasm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


Das Ganze ist mehr als die Summe seiner Teile(Aristoteles)
Aber wenn man das einzelne nicht mehr beachtet, hat das ganze keinen Sinn mehr (Stone)
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
I believe in both. Ooh, Lews wins auto.



Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
To believe in a god, you have to define what a god is. If no one knows what a god is, then what is the point in believing in something you know nothing about?

For example, I could tell you that a swertixl exists, without knowing anything about a swertixl at all, how can you consider any aspect about it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Joined: Mar 2003
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Ill answer if we really want to get into the nature of God...but...lets stay on topic its a good one.

Joined: Aug 2004
U
veteran
Offline
veteran
U
Joined: Aug 2004
Quote


[color:"orange"]However I see nothing in modern science to contradict the idea of Intelligent design[/color]

There is none, and there very likely never will be. In order to disprove intelligent design, you have to understand everything, to show that everything has progressed as would be expected from natural causes. Even then, our current understanding of all physical laws breaks down in a singularity. Despite various theories on what may have caused the big bang, or what may have existed before it, there is no way to prove them, so (as Morbo said) there will always be an opening for both creationism and intelligent design.


[color:"orange"]If all this is based on universal rules (i.e. gravity, reaction laws) all we would have to do is input a start point into the supercomputer in the sky and BAM!!! The future history of the world is at your fingertips...[/color]

This was not an uncommon belief a hundred years ago, before the development of quantum mechanics. It is physically impossible to know all of the initial conditions, even if you had the formulas to plug them into.

Even on a non-atomic scale, there are systems which show extreme dependence on initial conditions (chaos theory). Even with a very accurate starting point, there are some things which are random or can not be measured, which can have a significant impact. With the weather being the most obvious example of a chaotic system, the common example of chaos theory is that a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a storm half way around the world.


Maybe the tecnique of psyco history practised in The Foundation books by Isaac Asimov co0uld work in practise <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />. It doesn't dewal with what WILL happen, it deals with chances (like: there is a 90% chance that the imperium will fall within 50 years).

Quote
[color:"orange"]And top it all off with an appropriate quote![/color]

That reminds me of a related quote;

"God is dead"
- Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882

"Nietzsche is dead"
- God, 1900


Good one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />. Even though I don't believe in god...

Übereil


Brain: an apparatus with which we think we think.

Ambrose Bierce
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Germany, Mainz
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Germany, Mainz
I think everybody remeber the Poster from Fox Mulder, I want to believe"

This is the problem with the People who belive in creationism. They want to belive.
I belive in science, and if one theory is good enough that other scientists can proof it, and think it is right so i can belive at this theory.
Maybe after some years (or earlier) the theory has to change, or will complet throw over the bord.
Then i can belive in the next new theory, and can say, "ok, i was wrong but know there are better facts and greater knowledge."

I don`t "want" to belive, it is not so much importand for me. I don`t have reasons to hold an overtaking theory.

But by the creationist, there is a reason. God.

Normaly no problem, not for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> We live in a free Country and everybode can make a donkey out of him self if he want. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

But these people mean often that they have a mission. A mission to spread this holy knewledge all over the world. And i really dont like people who think that they can other people say what they have to belive.
I do not say that i have right in not beliving in god, maybe there is someday a bad awoke for me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> but at last, this will be a mostly positiv disappointment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Das Ganze ist mehr als die Summe seiner Teile(Aristoteles)
Aber wenn man das einzelne nicht mehr beachtet, hat das ganze keinen Sinn mehr (Stone)
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: England
Quote
Ill answer if we really want to get into the nature of God...but...lets stay on topic its a good one.


Fair enough, what is the purpose of the design?


Faith is believing in something you know isn't true
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  ForkTong, Larian_QA, Lynn, Macbeth 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5