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Setharmon #32787 21/03/03 10:06 PM
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and dont forget who supported irak long time ago: america.
the weapons were they are fighting with are partly american weapons....


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DQueene #32788 21/03/03 10:11 PM
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> Seth <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
You speak for me - except I don't think Bush is money grubbing (sorry just my opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />).

Oops and now I prepare to be in very big trouble - covers head and ducks!


It's nice to have a queen by my side. Even if I don't believe in monarchy... and even if she ducks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
Setharmon #32789 21/03/03 10:17 PM
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It's just that too many of my friends have opposing opinions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't want to hurt our friendship.


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Uhm Iraq does have weapons you know, the even produce the ak-47 kids in Iraq have A weapon.

Do you really think that war made our life better? what if Hitler never started a war? wouldn't be our lives even better? It could have made your life better, but ask your grand parents how much war made their lives better, the only good thing about those wars were that we learnt a lesson and technology has advanced in increased rate.


-The ak-47 was produced in countries who ware part of the Warshaw-pact. The only country still producing it is Bulgaria.

-A war isn't pleasant for the ppl in it. But some of us wouldn't have even been here if WWII never happened.
Medical science advanged at an incredible speed in WWII.
Things you take for granted, like peniciline ( and so antibiotics) would maybe not have been discovered fi.
And without the Marshall plan, Europe wouldn't have been what it is today.
It wasn't nice on our grandparents. But all you posting here are benefitting from things that have been discovered/invented becouse of WWII.


~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
jvb #32791 21/03/03 10:20 PM
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grmbl, my queen betraied me..? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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DQueene #32792 21/03/03 10:25 PM
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It's just that too many of my friends have opposing opinions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't want to hurt our friendship.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Don't attack them. Just state clearly what you think. The ones who give you a hard time on that aren't freinds and don't respect your opinion.

- I do understand/know what our freinds are posting here. And they are right too, you know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
But it's only a little part of the whole truth.
I just try to show them the whole picture.
Let him who is without sin... -know what I mean? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
jvb #32793 21/03/03 10:27 PM
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grmbl, my queen betraied me..? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


see... that's what I ment.
Noooo jvb. You're supposed to be loyal. So you betrayed her!


~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
jvb #32794 21/03/03 10:32 PM
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i aint mad <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

evryone must have an own opionion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i clearly pun an ";)" in my post


jvb, royal dragon prince Cheers!
kiya #32795 21/03/03 10:38 PM
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I don't care if Sadam cares for us... I care for legitimacy: And the USA and their allies have started war without the UN-Mandate = illegal. We stoop down to his criminal level.

The USA is trying to certify this war by pointing out the Cease-Fire agreement from 1991 (or 1993)has been broken by Iraq.

As for Iraq weapons according to what I found: Old Scuds (USA estimation 12-40), old Al-Samoud-II-rockets (50 destroyed by UNO, estimated 20 left to be ready), old Russ. T 72 tanks, old Mirage F1 planes and a few MIG's.

I hope, the UN will NOT make this murder legal. It's a crime what happens there and shall remain a crime.
Kiya


-You already missed something there. Saddam already used weapons that he isn't supposed to have. He violated UN resolutions, making this war legal.

-It wasn't a cease-fire agreement. It was an agreement about Iraq destroying all weapons of massdistruction and respecting human rights.
Saddam violated both.

-The airplanes you mentioned tell you why Russia and France are against the war. They provided those plains. And have more economical intrests in Iraq.

That's why it's sad that you said: "We stoop down to his criminal level."
Don't identify yourself with the UN and other politicians, kiya. You'll always get hurt, get lied to,...

Saddam is just one of the many who show us how powerless and what a joke the UN really is.
*grin* Not even the members of the UN care about it. As Bush and his allies have shown us.





~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
jvb #32796 21/03/03 10:41 PM
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I know jvb. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am still sitting back and biting my lip so I don't say anything unless absoulutely necessary. For one thing, the war is a fact and only history will show whether it was right or wrong. Someone said if the Iraqi people wanted to be free why didn't they free themselves? Really? If you knew your children would be killed how hard would you fight? Even the husbands of Saddam's daughters weren't safe.


~DragonQueen~
jvb #32797 21/03/03 10:42 PM
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but you can not look me straight in to my eyes and say that bush hasn't made "dirty hands"..


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jvb #32798 21/03/03 10:44 PM
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Er, english? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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jvb #32799 21/03/03 10:45 PM
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i aint mad <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

evryone must have an own opionion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i clearly pun an ";)" in my post


An opinion is good.
If it's based on own, personal judgement. And providing you have all the facts.
But not if it's based on propaganda and lies.
It's better to look around and be a bit nosy not to much or it may get cut off) than to just accept all you been told.




~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
jvb #32800 21/03/03 10:45 PM
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srry.
litteraly translated it means "white hands"
but i dont know if it has the same meaning.
it means that bush himself isn't all good to.
he had to get his hands dirrty as well.
maybe not so much as sadam, i agree, but still.


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jvb #32801 21/03/03 10:47 PM
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It doesn't means the same.
White hands/witte handjes is used for financial crimes/corruption.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
jvb #32802 21/03/03 10:50 PM
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whoops.
i meant the english translation.
witte handjes was wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
vieze hande better seth?


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jvb #32803 21/03/03 10:55 PM
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I know I have a different opinion of Bush than most & I won't say that his hands are completely 'clean'; most politicians have to 'roll in the mud' occasionally. Sad, but true. However, I don't think he would send our soldiers over to fight and die without a very good reason. We had enough oil and as long as we left things alone, we would have continued to have the oil. And I'm sorry I don't think that we went to Iraq primarily to free the people. I think that Bush knows for a fact that Saddam was supplying weapons and chemicals to groups like Osama's and that it was just a matter of time before Britian and American saw another 9/11. I think the countries that were holding back in the UN didn't feel that they themselves were immediate targets. The US had a big red X painted on her and it was just a matter of time.


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DQueene #32804 21/03/03 10:59 PM
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Mind you DQueene...

I do expect a lot more trouble after the war.
Not only about the oil fields.
In Iraq lives a complex variety of... eh... ppl.
Some of the muslims there have a more differend believe.
They belong to the same "group" as the ones who live in Iran. Iran has always been supporting them in fighting against Saddam and Saddam has killed many of those.
So I expect troubles there... (I think kiya maybe can back me up on that)

There are also the nomads who lived in what once was a huge swamp and that saddam turned into a dessert to destroy their habbitat.

And ofcourse... "the Koerden" (is it really Kurds in English?) Saddam wasn't the only one slaughtering them. The Turkish have done the same.
And from the latest news I heared, Turkey is kinda invading Iraq too to try to control "the Koerden" there, becouse they are afraid that once that "the Koerden" in Iraq are free, they will probably come help their brothers who get slaughtered in Turkey.
The USA and the European Community already have warned Turkey to stop that.
But I doubt if they will listen.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> (-specially as there are a couple of oil wells in that area too. I'm sure Turkey wouldn't mind getting control of those)


~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
DQueene #32805 21/03/03 11:15 PM
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I know I have a different opinion of Bush than most & I won't say that his hands are completely 'clean'; most politicians have to 'roll in the mud' occasionally. Sad, but true. However, I don't think he would send our soldiers over to fight and die without a very good reason. We had enough oil and as long as we left things alone, we would have continued to have the oil. And I'm sorry I don't think that we went to Iraq primarily to free the people. I think that Bush knows for a fact that Saddam was supplying weapons and chemicals to groups like Osama's and that it was just a matter of time before Britian and American saw another 9/11. I think the countries that were holding back in the UN didn't feel that they themselves were immediate targets. The US had a big red X painted on her and it was just a matter of time.


I have to tell you the same I tried to tell kiya.
Don't ever believe politicians start a thing like that becouse they care about you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
There's always more involved.
Actually... the USA doesn't has more than enough oil.
Specially now that Bush plans to destroy the Alaskian national wildlife parks to drill for oil have been shot down.
The USA had to use parts of their "oil stock" more than once over the last ten years.
And I'm sure you've heared about the power problems in fi Ca. Although that seems to be fixed now.
I also don't think Bush knows.
He has to go on what intelligence services tell him.
And it isn't the first time that they decieve a president of the USA, eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
But yes... in this case, you can fairly asume that Saddam was still supporting terrorists.
But you don't have a big red X painted on you!
If you start thinking like that you'll see a Saddam adept behind every tree/bush <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.
That "protecting ourselves" thingy is just one of the many lies in the proganda war.
Don't believe everything you been told.
But Bush being born in your backyard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> I understand why you tend to feel this way.
And the spirit of Suthern Americans... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />



~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
Setharmon #32806 21/03/03 11:17 PM
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I know I wouldn't have gone into that type of situation unless there were some very compelling reasons - just the idea of trying to match our western philosophies to the beliefs they have in that country would be mind challenging.

I know that a lot of what the world hears is propaganda, thats why we have that old saying about "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see". And even that has to be modified now to be what you see in real life. I don't walk around all paranoid; however, I do realize how easy it would be to do certain things. Recently there was a big sale on duct tape and plastic sheeting here in the US - it was sad, but funny at the same time. What did they really expect to accomplish with plastic and duct tape??

Last edited by DQueene; 21/03/03 11:25 PM.

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