Larian Studios Forums General Chat More Beautiful

I don't have to live in Iraq to see what's going on there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Do you?
Media seems to provide us with more than enough info(?) from there.

Yes. I like to listen to ppl. You would be surprised about the differend views you get from one newspaper item.
So I guess my opinion is based on what I hear from different ppl, what I hear and see in different media and on my own judgement of things.
It doesn't hurt to listen to ppl who think differently than you before you form an opinion you know. And others might agree with you but becouse of different reasons. If you always read the same, watch the same, you're influenced.
I prefer to look at things from different sides before I create my opinion about it. I try to take everything in consideration. I'm rarely completely for or against something.
Like now... we both agree on this war being illegal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
But I also try to see what it can lead to. Maybe a better life for the ppl there. Although I don't see that happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
And I also try to look at things from a political point of view. The country I live in is a member of the UN, yes.
It's one of the leading countries against the war. But we've got elections comming up so I fear for most politicians it's just a popularity thing. (The politicians who are expected to lose much votes in the comming elections are now yelling the hardest against the war.)
And also it's politically not so smart for a tiny country to keep on flaming at one of their biggest trade/economic partners.
Do you see what I mean? There's often a lot more to an opinion or ppl stating something.
I try to find out what their motives are, what they get out of something they say. Becouse often (all the time? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />) they have they're own reasons why they say something. What they say and what they think is often very different.
Ppl get decieved often enough.

Like you, I'm against the war. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But it started anyway. And instead of protesting against it, what doesn't help anymore, I rather try to think of what will happen there.
And based on what I seen and heared so far, we can expect a big mess there. I think we already should starting protesting against the local wars that will start there.
The best thing that could happen to Iraq (in my opinion) is that it gets devided into different smaller countries. But I don't see that happen without war too. Becouse the leaders of all the different groups will probably try to get control of all the wealth in Iraq. And I also don't see any of those leaders caring more about human rights than Saddam does.
In all those years ppl still haven't learned to live together. And war is something that's part of every culture and even seems native to human nature.
No matter how you and I feel about it. This won't be the last war we'll see.

I agree, it won't be the last war, we've seen - but I won't give up that there will be a possibility one day to settle controversal interests between countries in a peaceful debating way. The UN was founded in this spirit (preserving peace)- it has gone astray, yes. But as long as we have no other international instrument for peace I consider the UN a good first step towards world peace.
Kiya

did you totally just not get what i was saying? talk about your "selective understanding".



he's saying fighting in the name of peace is like f'ing in the name of virginity, it makes no sense.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> opppps I made his a fav and got 120+ emails hehe. wihs I had internet conection at home <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> a lot of reading for one go... where should I start? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I just hate to think what Iraq is going to be like after the war with how hard bush is hitting it. Will we have to leave troops behind to keep the peace??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> Oh now my head hurts, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> I better stop thinking about it and just let it happen.

I hear ya, kiya. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
But I rather see a new organisation handle war/peace problems.
A new organisation that only handles world peace and human rights for instance. Nothing more.
And that has enough ppl in the field to make sure things happen.
Not like now, when they just say "tsk tsk, you shouldn't do that, you bad person, you" and then stand by and watch/wait till the conflict is over. That's just why nobody listens. They have no authority and no respect left.
There are to many conflicts in the UN internally. It's about to many things: trade, human rights, economics, war/peace, environment,...
Conflicts are bound to happen. Members will vote against a war becouse they have the economic intrests in the back of their heads (under preasure from the politicians or the homefront). Or, and that's even worse, members will vote for a war becouse they have economic intrests in mind.
I rather see a group/organisation that doesn't have to answer to no one. But ofcourse, becouse of the members being human that's dangerous too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

All that happened in the last years just made things worse.
The world has never been so devided. And it gets more divided every day. Countries fall apart into smaller countries. The muslim and western worlds are drifting further apart. The USA and Europe are drifting apart.
Worldpeace will always be an illusion...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

No chance for world peace? No I just can't believe it I want the star trek way of life <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

World peace will only come after an almost world wide anillation IMHO. If only ten humans left alive the world will be at peace <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> We can always pray that humans will evolve in time and throw aside our difference but... I'm deffinately not going to be alive to see it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Who said they're fighting in the name of peace?
I'm sure the ones who started the fight had other things in mind than peace.
What does make sense than?
Let it all go on, wait and see what will happen... while people die without any reason constantly?
To some that maybe may be peace. But it's not my kinda peace. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

I'm afraid you couldn't be more right.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Open letter of the author Paulo Coelho (The Alchimist) to the White House:



Thank you, great leader George W. Bush
March 18, 2003
By Paulo Coelho
Thank you for showing everyone what a danger Saddam Hussein represents.

Many of us might otherwise have forgotten that he used chemical weapons against his own people, against the Kurds and against the Iranians. Hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator and one of the clearest expressions of evil in today's world.

But this is not my only reason for thanking you. During the first two months of 2003, you have shown the world a great many other important things and, therefore, deserve my gratitude. So, remembering a poem I learned as a child, I want to say thank you.

Thank you for showing everyone that the Turkish people and their parliament are not for sale, not even for 26 billion dollars.

Thank you for revealing to the world the gulf that exists between the decisions made by those in power and the wishes of the people. Thank you for making it clear that neither José María Aznar nor Tony Blair give the slightest weight to or show the slightest respect for the votes they received. Aznar is perfectly capable of ignoring the fact that 90% of Spaniards are against the war, and Blair is unmoved by the largest public demonstration to take place in England in the last thirty years.

Thank you for making it necessary for Tony Blair to go to the British parliament with a fabricated dossier written by a student ten years ago, and present this as 'damning evidence collected by the British Secret Service.

Thank you for allowing Colin Powell to make a complete fool of himself by showing the UN Security Council photos which, one week later, were publicly challenged by Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector in Iraq.

Thank you for adopting your current position and thus ensuring that, at the plenary session, the French foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin's anti-war speech was greeted with applause - something, as far as I know, that has only happened once before in the history of the UN, following a speech by Nelson Mandela.

Thank you too, because, after all your efforts to promote war, the normally divided Arab nations were, for the first time, at their meeting in Cairo during the last week in February, unanimous in their condemnation of any invasion.

Thank you for your rhetoric stating that 'the UN now has a chance to demonstrate its relevance', a statement which made even the most reluctant countries take up a position opposing any attack on Iraq.

Thank you for your foreign policy which provoked the British foreign secretary, Jack Straw, into declaring that in the 21st century, 'a war can have a moral justification', thus causing him to lose all credibility.

Thank you for trying to divide a Europe that is currently struggling for unification; this was a warning that will not go unheeded.

Thank you for having achieved something that very few have so far managed to do in this century: the bringing together of millions of people on all continents to fight for the same idea, even though that idea is opposed to yours.

Thank you for making us feel once more that though our words may not be heard, they are at least spoken - this will make us stronger in the future.

Thank you for ignoring us, for marginalising all those who oppose your decision, because the future of the Earth belongs to the excluded.

Thank you, because, without you, we would not have realized our own ability to mobilize. It may serve no purpose this time, but it will doubtless be useful later on.

Now that there seems no way of silencing the drums of war, I would like to say, as an ancient European king said to an invader: 'May your morning be a beautiful one, may the sun shine on your soldiers' armors, for in the afternoon, I will defeat you.'

Thank you for allowing us - an army of anonymous people filling the streets in an attempt to stop a process that is already underway - to know what it feels like to be powerless and to learn to grapple with that feeling and transform it. So, enjoy your morning and whatever glory it may yet bring you.

Thank you for not listening to us and not taking us seriously, but know that we are listening to you and that we will not forget your words.

Thank you, great leader George W. Bush.

Thank you very much.

Paulo Coelho

Thank you very much, Anthea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

And for all who don't know Coelho: Latinamerican author (Rio de Janeiro), wote many bestsellers, about finding yourself, finding peace and striving for your higher self.

The Alchimist. A fable about following your dream
The Valkyries. An encounter with the angels
Veronica decides to die
By the river Piedra I sat down and wept
Pilgrimage. a contemporary quest for Ancient Wisdom = this one is my favourite

exsqueeze me? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> who exactly is the one espousing personal opinions here? I have backed my posts with relevant information that you can read for yourself. What have you backed yours with? If it didn't impress you, why are you still here?


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Well, at least half of them are (yours) so far.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> One, i never said the UN was wonderfull and perfect, I merely pointed out that it had significant accomplishments and was not irrelevant (to which I AT LEAST, posted some relevant supporting information). How do people see what's "really" happening? explain that to me please! You have not demonstrated anything to indicate that you yourself see what's "really happening.



again, I never said it was wonderfull, just relevant. Moreover, it is the only organization we have to work with at this point. do you have an alternative in mind? let's hear it!


*sigh* this goes back to my previous post about your behavior in this "debate": you fail to respond directly to ANY of the evidence that I have presented on the topic so far, and I have really not even begun to post any serious evidence yet (just a few summary statements and some relevant documents). It is folks who have attitudes like yours (they get bored if they have to read more than one sentence), <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> that is causing the lack of understanding of the real issues behind what's going on in the world.



???


not true at all. perhaps you forgot the 1st gulf war?


Actually, the remarkable thing is how much the UN HAS accomplished even with the divisions that one would naturally expect considering the over 190 member countries.



Gee, couldn't agree with you more there! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> But who is the one who has stopped being critical, you or me?

SETH TO FAILE:

>>>Like now... we both agree on this war being illegal. <<<

Gee seth, why is it that you think this war is illegal? Is it because it is proceeding without UN sanction and all that implies? Please, be specific here.

Phalzyr:
>>Oh now my head hurts, I better stop thinking about it and just let it happen. <<

NO!! don't stop thinking or using your head. There is simply too much at stake.

really.

as said many times before the UN hadn't given the green light for this war.

as said before the UN does nothing while their rules are broken.

sad is right. Sad for you if you think that abandoning the UN will result is something better being formed. You might want to take a look at how hard it was to form the original UN. You promote a new organization that will have independent powers; uh, hate to break it to you, but that is what the UN is supposed to be right now. Why isn't it? because countries like the (current) US fear all international organizations that might limit their ability to extend their own interests wherever they want. Look at the world court, for example. Of all the nations in the world that supported the idea (over 85 and counting) >Edit: make that 120 and counting<, only the US and Australia are against it at this point in time. Here is a little blurb about the court from the UN's website:

>>>In July 1998 in Rome, 120 Member States of the United Nations adopted a treaty to establish -
for the first time in the history of the world - a permanent international criminal court. This treaty entered into force on 1 July 2002, sixty days after sixty States have become parties to the Statute through ratification or accession.

"The long-held dream of a permanent International Criminal Court is nearing reality," United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan said recently. "Our hope is that, by punishing the guilty, the ICC will bring some comfort to the surviving victims and to the communities that have been targeted. More important, we hope it will deter future war criminals, and bring nearer the day when no ruler, no State, no junta and no army anywhere will be able to abuse human rights with impunity." <<

The US has been working double time to bribe or extort countries into not accepting extradition for US citizens from the World Court. How can an international peacekeeping or justice organization work if the most powerfull exempt themselves from the rules? Why on earth would you believe that forming a new organization would be successfull, when the US is constantly trying to tear down what already exists?

With the way politics swing in the US, there may be an anti-hawk backlash in the US in the next elections (or at least somewhere in the near future, I hope). when that happens, if we have abandoned our commitment to peace that the UN represents, and the UN is disbanded, what will happen then? Where will the rule of law exist?

Is the whole world except the US wrong is supporting the UN, seth (over 190 countries, remember)? The only hope we have to keep the world from drifting further apart IS the UN. BTW, that is WHY IT WAS FORMED TO BEGIN WITH!!!

this shows the true role of the UN nowadays...

UN does nothing where? UN does nothing while the US breaks the rules, or when IRAQ breaks the rules?

the UN passed the toughest economic and military sanctions ever seen in the history of the world against Iraq. Inspections have resulted in the estimated destruction of over 90% of Iraq's long range and WMD capabilities (based on the reports of the UN weapon inspections team - I can find the link to the published reports, if you wish). the US has not publically published or related ANY direct evidence to the contrary (if you think otherwise - show me where i can see this evidence for myself). Besides that, the UN has very well established rules on when force can be used to resolve disputes, and Iraq had not yet reached the point where they the use of force against them could be legally authorized based on those rules.

I have no love for Hussein, or any tyranical dictator, for that matter. But what is at stake here is the very rule of law itself. Would you say in your own country that you could violate your own laws at any time just because they incovenience you, or you don't agree with them?

the real question is, will the UN now begin drafting resolutions imposing sanctions against the US for breaking the rules?

The bigger question is: with the direction the US is currently going in policy-wise, what will arise to balance against US interests? If you aren't going to support the UN, what are you going to support? terrorism?

I won't concede this point. Where has the UN actually violated its own rules? The only thing that has gone astray are the countries that violate the rules they swore to when they became members of the UN to begin with. The white house has defined "rogue nations" as those who violate international law. So now, is the US a rogue nation, too?

What, to sponsor endless debates? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, the US government is responsible for this war - and yes, the US government is a rogue government IMO and per US definition. I won't say the US nation is one, not with all those demonstrations going on.

When I wrote the UN has gone astray, I meant their members cowardice, not to condemn in public the US government's illegal war action = starting a war and violating International law in spite of having signed the UN regulations.
Kiya