Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Wishlist

~Im dreaming for a long time about a RPG where we can assign our own combos to our mousebuttons
everyone could have his own unique fighting style and change it so it feels natural for every player
and as your level increases you unlock different combos/skills to use with those combos~

How about the Final Fantasy XII system ? You can assign actions to your party members, optionally adding conditions such as "only heal when health < 50". As you get further, different conditions and actions become available.

I like the idea to connect different levels through "gates" unless offcourse we could use those gates to flee from whatever was chasing us

and about the loading in the interior of houses
that really depends
small houses where there isnt much (or nothing at all) to be done shouldn't load as different levels
but maybe castles or something similar should

Short addendum to my opionion on that "seamless world" question :

I'm happy with anything, as long as there is plenty to explore ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To me, personally, exploring is one of the biggest fun parts in any game ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

haven't tried FF XII (yet)
but I don't like to assign actions to party members
i just want "intelligent" party members who won't get into trouble all the time.
i dont want to be a babysitter.
but when i get a "healer" in my team he should just concentrate on what he is best at (healing and not getting himself involved in the fight). just like if im a fighter and i get another fighter in my team he shouldn't rush into a fight if im not rushing into it.
unless im helping him thats something else
well i just dont want to be constantly telling my team what they should or shouldn't do
i just want to able to have interesting fights that aren't always the same
but an optional "please heal me" shout to a possible healer in my team should be ok or maybe a "wait here"

I don't mind having a loading screen from time to time. For example when traveling long distances. But if the levels are too small (every house a separate level) then it could get annoying and distract from the game.

If you can create the feeling of a seamless world with this streaming in 'in between' levels it would be really great! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Assuming that you would have a city in a separate level I would prefer being able to enter (normal) houses without a loading screen. A very big city could be divided into different district levels to keep memory usage low.

Very large buildings or dungeons could be different levels. But you could easily do the streaming in the hallway of a large building while you talk to the butler who lets you in. In large dungeons the streaming could be done in the first passage before you open the next door.

So if possible go for the Gothic style where you can enter houses without a loading screen. Where you can look in and out of windows and doors.

[color:"orange"]and if we could change the attacks as we see fit we could have a bigger choice between for example an agile swordsman that uses quick successive strikes opposed to a strong one that uses slower and stronger attacks, or the ability to have abit of both.
i can not understand why you wouldn't buy such a game because how i see this you could adjust it and tweak your build untill you have designed the fighting style that feels the most natural to you. and if you don't care about this you could just keep some default attacks.[/color]

You can have an agile swordsman who uses quick successive strikes by focusing on the dexterity/agility attribute and choosing quick weapons like a rapier, whereas a strong swordsman who uses slower and stronger attacks would be focused on the strength or constitution attributes and use heavy weapons like battle axes - what else do you need? I think that's a much better approach than having combos.

Keeping fights interesting is fine, but having different special attacks and getting better ones as you advance in level is not a new concept in RPGs, and it's neither tied to having combos.

On the fighting combos thing: The Conan game of a few years ago did that, and the system was brilliant, but that was basicly a third person hack n slash where all the abilities Conan gained were related to fighting. I should imagine it would be very hard to implement in a game that also included other career paths.

Being most in favour of a party-based character-driven story with a strong emphasis on personality building as in PS:T, I can't say massive combat options are a priority of mine anyway.

I like the idea of lar_q. It takes out the boring walking from oblivion. But does the player have "the feel" it is one world? And is the idea of polymorfing in to a dragon to cross great distances still in play at this point?

well i wouldn't call a "swordsman" using a battleaxe a swordsman
and i was just giving examples
but why didn't you comment the part "or the ability to have abit of both"
or "and if you don't care about this you could just keep some default attacks"
(or in other words let the computer worry about your "combos")

but am i getting it right you just like bashing on one single mousebutton ?

I never claimed that this is a new idea.
all i want is a way to use different attacks like a fast attack, a strong attack, a somewhat more defensive kind of attack (or a counterattack)
and i dont want to hit quickly with the rapier
then restart the game put my attributes differently and let my swordsman use a battleaxe to get a strong attack

agreed we have the attributes to give the basics to our character to be either a fast hitting agile swordsman with a rapier or a strong and slow fighter with a battleaxe or hammer or something
but imo this shouldn't mean that all a rapier can do is to use the same attack
its main attack should prolly be fast for successive hits, but would it bother you so much that as a rapier user, you would be able to use a slightly stronger attack also when you are facing big and slow enemys
with an axe or hammer this could mean you could try to chop your opponent in two pieces by using the strong attack (so raise it above your head and chop down with all your might) and just a sideways attack more as a counterattack

and again this doesnt have to be new but wouldnt you think it would be lame if a mage had only one attack (for example a fireball) and all the mage could do was boost his attributes so either he could shoot fireballs faster or boost the magic so it became stronger
i dont think many people would be happy with that

so all i'm asking/saying is that imo it would be better to give us the choice wether we want to use different attacks or not.
we could still keep the old attacks (since they will get stronger because of the attributes) but this way we will be given a choice

or dont you think a character should be able to fight slow and fast enemys as well ?

and it doesn't have to mean that more combat options would mean less other options
this game isn't finished yet and i hope (and i think everyone on this forum) wants this game to be a better game than any other RPG we played before

and as i said if you don't like fighting we should be given the choice to have a more peacefull way to play the RPG
but i just want to have the choice...

Well, substitute "battle axe" with "two-hander", if you like, the "in between" thing being a broadsword or whatever. Apparently, you want to have fast and strong attacks, regardless of which weapon you use. I don't find it very convincing that you should have a fast attack with a heavy two-hander or a mighty blow with a light rapier.

And no, fights shouldn't just consist of frantically hitting the mouse button. I prefer turn-based tactical fights, though I realize they are getting rare. I also like real-time fights that you can pause to analyze the situation and to adjust your tactics, if necessary. I'm not interested in fights that are only tests of whether you can press the right buttons quickly enough.

If I get you right, you want something that keeps you occupied while your character fights. Fine. In Divine Divinity, fighters had a special attack you could use when surrounded by enemies and a normal attack you could use against single foes. That made sense. So how many different attacks are you suggesting to implement and in which situations should they be effective? If you just want your character's attacks to look flashy, I don't mind. However, there's a difference between an option to switch fighting styles and a necessity to do that if you want to win.

What you've written sometimes rather sounds like the latter. If I can let the computer worry about my "combos" and still fight as effectively as someone who uses the different attack options you've mentioned, why would most people bother to use different attack options at all?

This is part of the problem that Jade Empire had: Different attack styles (and in an Asian-themed world where they really fit), plus enemies that were immune to certain attack styles - but most of the time, one still didn't have to switch between, so many players found them boring (and additionally, they weren't balanced).

In my eyes, this is a fundamental problem: Either you force players to switch styles/press different buttons, or the whole system becomes somewhat superfluous.

[color:"orange"]Our current idea is to connect different levels to each other through specific "gates" where we can stream out the level you were just in and stream in the level you're going to. In those gates, there is gameplay, it's just not so diverse as a level is.[/color]

You mean something like a mountain pass, that you walk through to get to another region?
If gameplay is relatively open and the world immersive, that's all that counts. Dungeon Siege was very seamless, but the world was very linear and IMNSHO very boring.


[color:"orange"]On the topic - Oblivion/NWN/Baldur's Gate load in the interior of houses as different levels. Gothic doesn't. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages - which do you prefer ?[/color]

Like most others I'd prefer house interiors not be separate levels. If the load time was short I wouldn't mind if they were, however.

[color:"orange"]but I don't like to assign actions to party members
i just want "intelligent" party members who won't get into trouble all the time.
i dont want to be a babysitter.[/color]

That is the point of being able to set actions for characters, so you don't have to babysit. This could be something simple, like setting a warrior as aggressive, defensive or guard, or a setting for a mage to determine how much mana they will use. Another handy option would be settings for who to attack; you could have characters attack the closest, weakest or strongest opponent, only attack if they are attacked or have an archer only attack opponents that are already being attacked (so they don't draw more enemies into the fight).

Knufknuf's suggestion (welcome to the forum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> ) was to have the option to fine tune the character AI even further. You wouldn't have to do this, and once set up, it would require very little maintenance. I've had healers waste mana fixing minor wounds and mages use their most powerful spell against insignificant opponents, depleting mana that would have been much better kept in reserve.

Basically, no matter how reasonable the default behaviours are for a given character, there will be situations or gameplay styles in which some aspect of the AI will be annoying, counterproductive or even dangerous. The ability to tweak the AI would be nice to have.

[color:"orange"]but am i getting it right you just like bashing on one single mousebutton ?[/color]

Speaking for myself, I don't like having to hit various key/button combinations, particularly if you have to match timing as well.


In Evil Islands you could hold specific keys down while attacking to target specific parts of the body (ie you have a lower chance to successfully hit someone in the head, but if you do it does much more damage), or simply attack and the game would choose (primarily targeting the main body). This could be very useful against strong opponents especially if you could sneak up behind them, but most of the time I didn't bother.

If different attacks could be set up something like that, then that would be fine. If fights would need to be micro-managed or require lost of key mashing that would turn me off the game completely.

well i said that the basics were dependent on your attributes (and weapon)
so the "slow and strong" rapier attack wouldn't be as slow or as powerfull as the axe.

replace the word "combo" with "tactics" and the only difference would be that you had more time to think it through and i would need to make fast decisions
the enemy does this so i should do that...
so add a way to pause the game and we could both be happy
or maybe just forget the word combo but i used it since it appeared like an easy way to do different attacks. but to me pausing the game would make it less real.
turn-based is also something i could live with, the reason i started about the combo thing is that fighting in recent rpgs was boring most of the times.
but i either want the fight to be a challenge as in pressing the right buttons at the right time. or either as a turn-based fight that actually needed you to think about the pros and contras of certain strategys.
and im sorry i understood you wrong at first but you gave me the impression you were happy with fights as in oblivion or gothic 3 for example.
and in those games "frantically hitting the mouse button" would often do the trick

yes i would like something that keeps me occupied. something between 4 and 8 attacks at a time would do the trick for me, that is if they could be changed so i wouldn't end up using the same attack a thousand times.
if getting better at a attack would make the attack more "flashy" it could also help a little bit not that it would become more fun or the kind of fighting i want. but hopefully it will not look as repetitive as it would without the attacks getting flashy.

i can't speak in the name of most people. but those different attacks would require you to rethink the fighting style, make it more challenging and interactive.

well as i said in a previous post they would really need to balance the attacks for it to work if the attacks aren't balanced they shouldn't even bother.

im getting the impression that there is something we agree on:
it should be challenging!

but i guess you want a more strategic fight while i would like to see a more fast paced fight

then i guess i just misunderstood it (misunderstanding people is getting a habit of mine...) if you put it like that and if you really had to set it once with little or no maintenance i can't see any reason not to implement this
that is if my partymembers wouldn't go acting all crazy (unless thats what i tell them to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Lepel and Lurker, how about the way Guild Wars does it?

There are different skills for different situations.
- normal auto attack
- special attack that does more damage
- a special slash that causes bleeding wounds
- a special blow that causes the enemy to get stunned
- a special stab that interrupts the enemies special attack
- a special attack that does less damage but draws attention
- a whirling attack that damages all enemies around you

In Guild Wars you can only take 8 skills into combat. You have to decide which ones you take and which ones you leave. When you use skills they drain your mana/endurance/or whatever depending on the power of the skills. Skills also have cool down timers depending on their power. So you can not use skills by clicking them fast and repeatedly. You have to use them in the right situation to be effective.

e.g. if you see that your enemy prepares for a special attack you would use your special stab to disrupt him. If you don't you would take serious damage.
When two enemies attack you you could use stun on one taking him out of the fight for a few seconds so that you can finish the second opponent...

Some of the skills above only make sense if you have a party. You could get an attacker off your healer with your attack that draws his attention.

Is that what Lar_q said the same as the original <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />? You got 1 or 2 transition from rivertown to verdistis. So you got relatively large areas with distinct elements and and specific portal to make transitions and Oblivion just had a large landscape as transition. I prefer the mountain pas approach like Raze said. Personally I really like the GTA approach (don't know what rpg uses this). They use (broken) bridges as transitions. It feels like one world but unless you swim (or fly) you have to take the bridge. For me the GTA approach is one of the best I have ever seen.

I also prefer the houses interiors are loaded in the open world (and a village can have a loading screen). But it all depends on the load time. Are we talking seconds, 10 seconds and what interval of the loads (searching a village can be hard when every house you enter takes 10 sec to load ), then again I don't want a load screen every 3 steps I take.

I feel the urge to repeat my point here: The problem in that matter is not loading or not loading but different level or seamless entering. Sure, loading of 2 seconds is not much... but if you have to live with buildings which don't have any interaction with the outer world, it's too much in my opinion.

So, I don't care if there is some loading when entering a building... the only thing I regard as crucial is that the buildings have to be part of the world... so, looking out of the window or even climb out of the window should be possible.

Actually I've found it quite the opposite - creating lower polygonal objects takes a LOT more work than detailed ones. Then of course, if you push a little further into the next-gen you have to add normal/parallax mapping and all that good stuff so it eventually balances out from one side of the spectrum to the other <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In reality though, you don't have to go that far depending on your target platform. By doing high-poly environmental models without all those fancy shaders you can effectively compensate for them(the displacement and bump maps anyway). In my opinion they're not worth it anyway as normal maps have a tendency to scream unrealistic in my face when used on virtually everything even where it's not seriously needed.

I guess it all comes down to your budget and the talents within the team in the end..

Anyway, I'd like to say I was impressed with the new screenshot you guys released <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Giant leap from the last ones from a year ago.

Cheers!




(just so you know Lar, I'm not trying to school you but hopefully provide some insight for other people. If you learn something that great too though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Theoretically the advantages to having a load between the interior and exterior is all about your computer(I can't think of one that benefits the person playing, can you?) and the advantages to seamless transition is supporting the "suspension of disbelief," the holy grail of RPGs. If your engine can handle everything well, then seamless transition is great! Otherwise, it should only be middle priority for things to go out the door in my opinion.

Suspension of disbelief is important to sucking the player in. It's what makes you forget about real life and living in the world you are playing in. It's the difference between Oblivion(lack of suspension) and Divine Divinity(excellent in suspension). It's the difference between a good game, and the game you'll be playing from start to finish, and back again 5 or even 10 years later. There are many factors contributing to this suspension - encompassing from great environmental art, well-timed music, to believable dialog. Because this is from so many different fields within game development, it's the leader of direction who has to have a solid vision and to be able to communicate this vision effectively to the other leads and developers. Without either the compelling vision or sufficient communication skills, you will not have a team that shares the same vision - and without it, the game world will not flow properly and you will end up with something like Oblivion. In addition to this, the developers need to have open ears and creative minds to have this vision for themselves. It's hard to find this perfect mix, but I have a firm belief that Larian Studios is one of the few developer houses that has this mix.


I can't wait to see what Larian has in store for us for their next-generation game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hate how Guild Wars is set up with 8 skills only.