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#341372 10/12/06 12:22 PM
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I like the Dark Messiah of Might & Magic combat style, yes it's an FPS/RPG hybrid game but:
- just bashing your mouse button results in flurry, fast but powerless attacks
- stronger attacks need a powerup time (holding a button for 2 seconds)
- You need to block attacks your self
- special moves need you to perform extra actions, running, crouching...

I like this because combat has a strong focus on your knowledge of the game and judgement, when to strike when to block. What spell to use to certain enemies. Opposed to the Diablo style where anything is good as long your stats and gear are high enough. click click click click click click click click click click health potion click click click click click click health potion click click <-- just isn't interesting combat.

other good points are:
- you do not need to worry about how many npc's you an render without lag
- you can develop unique behaviours to enemies..


It's one of these days...
#341373 10/12/06 12:22 PM
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My feeling about battles in most RPG's is that there's way too many of them, and they're boring/simplistic ie fights in most RPG's are a real pain.
...
My feeling about an active combatsystem isn't that it's the combatsystem that is the problem, it's the ammount of fights. Because fights still shouldn't be the focus of the game, and therefore not exaggregated (think KotOR).
‹bereil

My point excactly. This is the reason that if the developpers think its important it should be worked out.
It doesn't have to mean for me they should seriously cut back on the fights, but just find a reason to keep them interesting and challenging.
(Fights shouldn't be the focus, but in RPGs these days it mostly is)


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#341374 10/12/06 12:30 PM
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I like the Dark Messiah of Might & Magic combat style, yes it's an FPS/RPG hybrid game but:
- just bashing your mouse button results in flurry, fast but powerless attacks
- stronger attacks need a powerup time (holding a button for 2 seconds)
- You need to block attacks your self
- special moves need you to perform extra actions, running, crouching...

The basic idea was there but the game couldn't convince me.
It didn't feel natural at all (this is my personal opinion)
But then again I only played the demo (I didn't buy the game because I didn't like the demo at all)


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#341375 10/12/06 12:50 PM
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My feeling about battles in most RPG's is that there's way too many of them, and they're boring/simplistic ie fights in most RPG's are a real pain.

[...]

My feeling about an active combatsystem isn't that it's the combatsystem that is the problem, it's the ammount of fights. Because fights still shouldn't be the focus of the game, and therefore not exaggregated (think KotOR).

‹bereil


One of the few times I agree with you, ‹bereil.

In my humble opinion, combbat is far too much emphasized.

And the extreme version of that is Blizzards megasellers : They are so much defining the whole genre (simply because they were so popular), that now everyone - especuially those who don't know many older titles - might believe that combat / hack&slay is what an RPG defines !

"It has no combat in it, so it's no *real* RPG" ?


I know, the huge amount of fighting has a very strong tradition : The Dungeon Crawl. And I guess/assume that since the RPG genre was very much defined through early dungeon-crawl - like games or P&P adventures, many people (I guess) assume that an RPG has to contain a *lot* of combat !

So, the Action-RPG fraction and the Dungeon Crawl fraction unite, at this pecific point. And I assume they are just too many for the non-combat or diplomatic/stealth fraction.

Popularity defines. Or, as we say here in Germany : Millions of flies cannot be wrong" (a very cynical saying, I know).

And that's why PS:T is so much unique (and perhaps even the reason why the sales of it weren't too impressive) : It is has a strong orientation against combat ! (Although some at RPGWatch say it has a very weak implementation of the "stealth way".)


By the way, I'm still playing TOEE at the moment, and I'm still quite impressed how many non-combat options it has ! - Assumed you build up social skills as well !


Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 10/12/06 12:51 PM.

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#341376 10/12/06 08:44 PM
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I like Jedi Knight style, where you click the mouse to use your light saber.



#341377 10/12/06 08:53 PM
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but I like my fingers so I don't like button bashing


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#341378 10/12/06 09:16 PM
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...[color:"orange"]click click click click health potion click click <-- just isn't interesting combat.[/color]

An active combat system would require a great deal more clicking, and I fail to see how turning combat into a test of coordination and reaction time makes things either interesting or more realistic.

Making combat interesting should be done my adding tactical considerations and making sure a straight frontal assault isn't always an effective method. Micromanaging combat is the opposite of that.

#341379 10/12/06 09:47 PM
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...[color:"orange"]click click click click health potion click click <-- just isn't interesting combat.[/color]

An active combat system would require a great deal more clicking, and I fail to see how turning combat into a test of coordination and reaction time makes things either interesting or more realistic.


Aren't real-life fights a test of coordination, reaction time, and strength?


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#341380 10/12/06 09:56 PM
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You target an enemy by clicking on them. From this, pressing on the WASD you can sidestep around the target in a 360 angle or move forward and backward. Clicking causes you to swipe your weapon - and depending on if you are currently moving in any direction you will swipe differently. Let me elaborate more on this.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> That would be nothing for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

If you put 'slash' on key 1 and 'roundswing' on key 2 and 'overheadslash' on key 3, etc. And give me a pause button... then it would be ok. At least without the 'locking on'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> But if I have to remember in what order I have to press WASD and Mouse1/2 then I'll uninstall the game rather quick.

#341381 10/12/06 10:02 PM
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Aren't real-life fights a test of coordination, reaction time, and strength?

That's my favorite argument as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

But on the other hand, why do you have attributes and skills then? Why do the characters have fighting skills if it's up to the player how well they fight if they fight? And shouldn't be magic much more complicated then as well?

That's why I'd say a basic fighting system - which can be done in FPS view. But it should be playable with a few clicks, e.g. one for the left arm and one for the right arm.

And btw, I wouldn't mind if the same goes for using magic. Like having to draw some runes into thei air in order to throw a fireball for example. But I guess people wouldn't like that at all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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#341382 10/12/06 10:58 PM
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...[color:"orange"]click click click click health potion click click <-- just isn't interesting combat.[/color]

An active combat system would require a great deal more clicking, and I fail to see how turning combat into a test of coordination and reaction time makes things either interesting or more realistic.

Making combat interesting should be done my adding tactical considerations and making sure a straight frontal assault isn't always an effective method. Micromanaging combat is the opposite of that.


It's not as much a comment on the amount of clicking, rather the simplicity of it, for instance in many RPG's shields are there only for adding armor points they aren't really used as a shield.

The howto of the combat system should be plain and simple, use a limited amount of buttons. But the execution should be more complex. Say you target an enemy, just click to attack and keep your finger ready to hit the healthpotion bind is to simple. Your survival shouldn't depend on the use of potions, but on the knowhow of when to attack when to defend, who to attack -> strategy, tactics. I would even prefer potions to be scarce, something to save till you'll really need it, a boss for instance. Attack/Defence is quite simple, do not swing your weapon if your opponent does to, you'll get hurt. Swing after you blocked its attack, or when cuaght offguard. Aim to perform those 'special' moves rather then going beserk on your mouse/keyboard.

Combat should just another puzzle to solve, what enemy can be best defeated by what means, powerfull creatures come in small numbers, your actions should be measured and timed. While weak creatures who come in greater numbers should be finished of as fast as possible. Few blows of the powerfull opponent really hurt, try to avoid them. While you'll never be able to defend the many, so reduce their attack power fast. It's not about your typing skills, but your mind. In FPS games like Rainbow Six you won't rush in and empty your clips as fast as possible, the same should count for a good RPG, rainbow six has a lot better atmophere than for instance quake does. A good combat system will add to the atmosphere of the game.


It's one of these days...
#341383 10/12/06 10:59 PM
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i really liked the robin hood: legend of sherwood like fighting. Ne1 played that 1? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


#341384 10/12/06 11:26 PM
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Aren't real-life fights a test of coordination, reaction time, and strength?


Depends on the fight.

Chess can be a fight, too ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
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"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
#341385 10/12/06 11:55 PM
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> That would be nothing for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

If you put 'slash' on key 1 and 'roundswing' on key 2 and 'overheadslash' on key 3, etc. And give me a pause button... then it would be ok. At least without the 'locking on'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> But if I have to remember in what order I have to press WASD and Mouse1/2 then I'll uninstall the game rather quick.


It depends on how the rest of the control scheme would work. If the mouse controlled the camera, simply by keeping your 'mouse' upon said creature for more than 1 second, and if they are within x meters(or units) of your character, they become locked until you move the mouse outside of a bounding box of the creature.

The system I described is pretty much "slash on key 1", and complex moves a "logical combination of WASD keys in combination of slash on key 1". Such as if you wanted to lunge forward, press W in rapid succession twice followed by the "key 1". I think it'd be a rather simple yet dynamic system that would allow enough tactics and skills/stats to still come into play - thus removing a lot of the "twitch" factor while still feeling well-paced.

But maybe it's just me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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#341386 11/12/06 12:45 AM
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The basic thing is, are we talking about a role playing game or a fighting game? With all due respect to those of you who want an intricate and highly reactive combat system, the main emphasis in any RPG truly deserving of the name is characterisation & story - not having many and varied ways you can hit things.

There are plenty of good games out there where the point is to go around and shoot or hit things, and I've played a ton of them myself so I'm certainly not against them - but they are not RPGs.

Yes, there is a ton of fighting in most RPGs, but fighting should never be the main point of it.


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#341387 11/12/06 01:06 AM
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The basic thing is, are we talking about a role playing game or a fighting game? With all due respect to those of you who want an intricate and highly reactive combat system, the main emphasis in any RPG truly deserving of the name is characterisation & story - not having many and varied ways you can hit things.

There are plenty of good games out there where the point is to go around and shoot or hit things, and I've played a ton of them myself so I'm certainly not against them - but they are not RPGs.

Yes, there is a ton of fighting in most RPGs, but fighting should never be the main point of it.

Well the point of most people here is the same one you are making. And I'm just trying to say, if we have to fight make it interesting and challenging.
Does a "good fighting system" (different for all of us I guess) mean the game has to be all about fighting ? Offcourse not...
You said yourself that there is a ton of fighting in most RPGs, so wouldn't you want the fighting to be a positive point instead of a negative one ?
We can also be pretty sure that fights will take place in this new RPG. So if they are gonna put time into it, why shouldn't they try to make it fun.

I do realize that we are talking too much about this subject and we should better be thinking about other things as well.
Because there are some other ideas in this thread worth talking about.
for example NeroJB's post about property


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#341388 11/12/06 01:58 AM
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The basic thing is, are we talking about a role playing game or a fighting game? With all due respect to those of you who want an intricate and highly reactive combat system, the main emphasis in any RPG truly deserving of the name is characterisation & story - not having many and varied ways you can hit things.

There are plenty of good games out there where the point is to go around and shoot or hit things, and I've played a ton of them myself so I'm certainly not against them - but they are not RPGs.

Yes, there is a ton of fighting in most RPGs, but fighting should never be the main point of it.

Well the point of most people here is the same one you are making. And I'm just trying to say, if we have to fight make it interesting and challenging.
Does a "good fighting system" (different for all of us I guess) mean the game has to be all about fighting ? Offcourse not...
You said yourself that there is a ton of fighting in most RPGs, so wouldn't you want the fighting to be a positive point instead of a negative one ?
We can also be pretty sure that fights will take place in this new RPG. So if they are gonna put time into it, why shouldn't they try to make it fun.

I do realize that we are talking too much about this subject and we should better be thinking about other things as well.
Because there are some other ideas in this thread worth talking about.
for example NeroJB's post about property


A fight can be interesting and challenging without lots of button mashing.

The main problem though from my POV is balancing out the approaches so that someone who chooses to play as a spellcaster or sneaky-type is not seriously disadvantaged compared to a warrior.

The best example of the kind of system you are talking about that I have seen is TDK's Conan game, which involves a truly incredible number of moves using multiple mouse clicks in combination, plus the space bar and a couple of other keys. It's a fantastic game, but it's entirely based on Conan being a barbarian who goes around hitting everything until it falls over.

While it would be possible to create a single character RPG using such a system, it would only work as long as everyone played a warrior-type character because that is all the system is designed for.

It certainly wouldn't be possible with a party-based game, either, unless the computer controlled every other character, which would render it utterly pointless having a party in the first place.

Not that there's anything wrong with single character RPGs, it must be said, my own preferences aside. And if anyone can think of a way to have an intricate fighting system for warriors and an equally good system for spellcasters, rogues, etc, I will naturally withdraw all objections - and indeed applaud your ingenuity, because I can't think of a way to do it.

That all said - you're right that this is one of many issues, and there are plenty more also worthy of discussion.

I like the idea of property, too. Especially if you can pay builders to upgrade it or something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You could start with a cottage and upgrade it to house, keep, small fort... a whole building tree, with each stage having more storage or other story advantages. Maybe the princess won't marry you if you don't have an impressive enough looking house or something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It would be a good money soak and could add some advantages, like a large cottage might come with a herb garden which will produce stuff you can use with the Alchemy skill. One level could have a free hospital area which would improve your popularity/reputation with the locals... The possibilities are endless, and each would only really be a case of replacing one building with another. Or maybe modular add-ons. I'm no programmer nor even close, but that doesn't sound terribly complex to me, though I don't doubt it would involve a fair amount of work to implement...


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#341389 11/12/06 05:06 AM
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Ok, now is my turn to give my 2 cents on what Lar asked about levels & all that.

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Our current idea is to connect different levels to each other through specific "gates" ....

On the topic - Oblivion/NWN/Baldur's Gate load in the interior of houses as different levels. Gothic doesn't. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages - which do you prefer ?

Lar


i haven't played nro seen Gothic so i can't comment on that. However if it feels a bit like Dungeon Siege where u can move from open space to enclosure (for example, cave) without loading, that would be most useful. & i'm not talking about it being immersive & all that. Useful because if the enclosure (house, for example) is not a big space to load, then it should be seamless as it connects in 'real-time' to the outside world. Some examples given by a number of members here are great, such as hiding from Orcs in houses. For me, it'll be great for stealth especially when one plays rogue & wants to sneak into a house, so to move into the house seamlessly (with no reset of NPC placement in the house) knowing where the occupants are at that time would make it very feasible & real.

In the same vein, i wonder if loading of levels will mean resetting the previous level(s). In the case of Fable TLC, the previous levels are reset so u have repawning of enemies to fight. While it's nice at first & also good for levelling up, it gets tedious very fast too, i feel.

So to cap it all up, my preference is for integration between houses & outside world to be seamless. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for the subject of perspectives, i would like to state my preference one again - no first person mode. I keep getting headaches no matter how i try to get myself adjusted, so i really really hope Larian won't implement this.

As Larian RPGs consist more than just combat alone (though combat makes a huge chunk of the game), i hope the combat is not too heavily emphasised. If possible, please allow for non-combat solutions (sneak, diplomacy, distraction).

I feel that for combat, a hybrid of NWN & Dungeon Siege will be just nice, not too much yet not too rudimentary. A semi-automated combat will be nice so it won't be twitch-oriented (Diablo2 comes to mind) with hotkeys (like NWN) to initiate special move or action.

Now about quests, i feel that to prevent game-breakers, maybe Larian can introduce quest locking. Once players level up to certain number, new quests will be unlocked. Since the world is all opened right from the start, players will need to re-visit certain NPCs for newly unlocked quests. This will make interaction more than just one-shot, as is the case with almost all CRPGs (except maybe KOTOR, which has u to travel back to the previous worlds to complete new quests & all that). With that, the game, i feel, does not actually need an army of NPCs, rather create more depth on the limited number of them. This, i hope, will enrich the depth of character hence staying true to role-playing namesake.

So far what i have read in regards to the game in terms of its engine are all about graphics graphics graphics. I think it is important, however it is not the only medium to enhance game atmosphere. One thing that i have mentioned in the past, in similarly themed threads like this one, is the emphasis of sound. So what about it?

Instead of solely relying on visual clues for the game, sound can also be included. Say for example, inside a castle, one doesn't know what is going on in any room as none has windows. So what one can do is to eavesdrop (place ear on the door, for example) to learn if there is anyone inside or to learn of something new.

Also, for stealth, sound can be important too. When there is a fight, it should be noisy, so the noise should attract authorities to investigate. Vice versa, sound can be utilised by the players to know if there are soldiers nearby or whatever so they can rely on other sense besides sight.

I have tons more ideas for sound but i can't recall more right now. Maybe later.

ok, that's it for now. my 2 cents. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



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#341390 11/12/06 07:45 AM
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[color:"orange"]Aren't real-life fights a test of coordination, reaction time, and strength?[/color]

Yes, but adding key/button combinations to a game's controls still isn't going to make the combat more realistic. There may be more finger coordination and twitch reflexes required, but it wouldn't approach anything close to realism.



Anyway, for a non-combat related wish (though I've mentioned it before);

If there is going to be an automap and a fog-of-war, I wish the map would only clear areas that are actually shown onscreen. The fog-of-war is handy keeping track of where you have explored, but in DD I had to start avoiding equipment with sight bonuses, so the area cleared as I walked would not be too much bigger than I could see.

Ideally I'd like to see a two-toned fog of war; places your character can see are half obscured by a grey fog, while only areas that have been shown on screen get completely cleared.

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[color:"orange"]It's not as much a comment on the amount of clicking, rather the simplicity of it[/color]

Well the large increase in the number of clicks for some of the active fighting systems proposed is a problem for me. I'll take simplicity over carpal tunnel any day.


[color:"orange"]Say you target an enemy, just click to attack and keep your finger ready to hit the healthpotion bind is to simple. Your survival shouldn't depend on the use of potions, but on the knowhow of when to attack when to defend, who to attack -> strategy, tactics.[/color]

Your character should be the one who knows when to attack, and should be able to execute the strategy indicated when instructed to attack.


[color:"orange"]Attack/Defence is quite simple, do not swing your weapon if your opponent does to, you'll get hurt. Swing after you blocked its attack, or when cuaght offguard.[/color]

What is the point of your character having an agility stat if your button pushing timing is what counts? Why have combat skills in the game if the fighting system is based on your own hand-eye coordination?


[color:"orange"]Combat should just another puzzle to solve[/color]

I would much, much rather do that by developing my character and choosing the best skills and weapons, than by hitting keys in the right combination at the right time.


[color:"orange"]It's not about your typing skills, but your mind.[/color]

You can talk philosophically about how these active fighting systems allow greater control, strategy, etc, but practically I have not seen a description that doesn't ultimately boil down to typing skills.


[color:"orange"]A good combat system will add to the atmosphere of the game.[/color]

The problem here is the differing definitions of 'good'.
Also, I don't want the combat system to add atmosphere to an RPG; that is what the story, dialog, music, books, graphics etc are for. The combat system should fit the setting and not get in the way, or become the focus of the game.

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