Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Guns and ammunition...

I recall several posts where various folks suggested guns and ammunition, in mostly prototype stages, being introduced within the Divinity world.

So I was thinking that: instead of having "ammunition" based on lead, metal, etc. like what bullets in the real world are like... why not have guns which can fire bullets made of magic, wind, fire, etc. ?

I was reading some fighting manga series and this idea came from there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Star Wars Episode II had "sonic guns", which emitted waves of ... well, "sound". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Oh yeah... sound attacks. Sonic stuff... a long-time favourite of various comics and possibly games. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I blame Dune for inventing sonic weapons.

A lot of games have used wands with limited charges as ammo. A Wand of Fireballs is the fantasy equivilent of a rocket launcher. Also, grenades often make a good ammunition based weapon in a fantasy setting.

So what differentiates guns from bows (or crossbows) with enchanted arrows? Guns would be louder, which presumably could attract strong opponents from farther away, scare off weak opponents or warn intelligent opponents of your presence. Depending on design, guns could be slower (muskets) and more powerful, or faster for a few shots (bolt-action) but then require reloading. Semi or full automatic guns could also be possible, but would have to be weaker or have a possibility of jamming, or something. If both guns and bows are included in the game, I don't see a great deal of room to differentiate them and still keep them balanced.

In one book I read (don't recall the name) a WWII tank ended up in another world/dimension where there was magic. They eventually demonstrated their machine guns to a benefactor, who was impressed, but decided it was not worth the effort to reproduce them (pre-industrial revolution technology). He explained that guns would work great as a surprise attack, but once the enemy was familiar with how they work, it was a trivial matter to disable them (wet the gunpowder, transmute the gunpowder or bullet into another substance, block the firing pin or trigger, etc).


What is the difference between guns and spells, just ammo vs mana requirements? If Larian continues with a classless system where any character can learn magic, there doesn't seem to be much need for guns, IMO. If there are going to be restrictions or stat requirements on learning magic, then guns with limited ammo could allow non-mage characters to use magic (sort of like using an enchanted scroll to cast a spell). However, with freely available ammo, it defeats the purpose of having restrictions on learning magic, unless the magic and gun systems are fairly different, with different requirements, effects and consequences.


I have not gotten around to playing Arcanum yet, but in that game magic and technology were opposites, so the better you became at one, the worse you would be at the other (a balanced character build is also viable). The design of the technology skills are different than magic, and your relative abilities are one of the factors that influence how various NPCs react to you.



I went to high school with someone who played (P&P) Dungeons and Dragons. His little brother also played, but as DM he came up with a time portal, so they could equip themselves with an unlimited supply of uzis, granades and rocket launchers. Their standard method of exploring a dungeon was to open a door a few inches, toss in a couple grenades quickly and shut the door, then wait and burst in with uzis blazing to clean up anything that survived.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

magic guns ? wind = an airgun ?, fire = a flamethrower ?or maybe water = a waterpistol ?

Guns in an RPG would be a reason to leave it in the store for me...

I really dislike guns, and if guns are added either they're made too weak (when they balance the game, so that guns don't have the advantage) or the guns are too strong (when they give guns the advantage they have)
But then I'm left wondering whoever came up with the idea that guns do not have the advantage...

And there are alot of games with guns, please people who like guns, go play those games but keep this RPG gun-free, or warn me in advance...

I agree with Lepel, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> is a game where the combat revolves around more Weapons
such as swords, bows, spears, axes, etc., plus a bunch of magic. It wasn't made to have guns suddenly just blast their way in! That would make this game like Dungeon
Siege! Not that Dungeon Siege was a bad game, but <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> would completely lose it's originality and uniqueness which sets it apart from all other RPG games! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, because <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> is the only game out there who focus around melee weponds such as swords and axes and around spells... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The idea of adding guns to that is way more original. I've only seen that (swords and axes and magic... with guns!) in Arcanum (great game!) and Silverfall (not so great...).

The most exiting thing about guns in Arcanum was building them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Übereil

When you're world building the important thing is not 'cool' but cohesion. You can't just randomly introduce firearms out of nothing - you'd need the whole technological backdrop that leads up to guns in the first place.

In a medieval/fantasy world they are glaringly and obviously out of place, and thus a bad idea.

Exactly! Thanks Elliot! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> You see, if there were guns, it would have to modify the general plot so badly, we would lose any traces of our dear old <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />, and thus there would be a howl of disappointment from the majority of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> fans. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" /> BTW, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> what's "Arcanum"? Can't think of it right now...

[color:"orange"]if there were guns, it would have to modify the general plot so badly[/color]

Technically, guns could be introduced fairly easily into the plot. The Divine One discovered ruins containing rifts to other realms, at least one of which was technologically advanced enough that it could have had guns. One of these rifts was used to banish Damian, who then learned to create his own rifts, and presumably could also find a source for guns.

The problem would be in introducing guns in a manner that was neither lame nor a cliché 'technology bad / magic good' way. Any problems with implementation or balancing could fairly easily tip the game into the lame category.


[color:"orange"]we would lose any traces of our dear old <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />, and thus there would be a howl of disappointment from the majority of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> fans.[/color]

It would certainly change the story and atmosphere of the game. IMO there is plenty from DD/BD to expand upon for DD2. Maybe the series will start getting tired by DD8 or 9, and an industrial revolution could add some new story possibilities....



Wikipedia - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

Right... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" /> Oh well, thanks again Raze! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> I guess I'd better just have a good laugh at myself, here goes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

guns in DD2 would really turn me off...

Yeah that was a really sudden idea... >>;; And that wouldn't work very well in such a setting. Oh well. :P

Yeah... I wonder, who originally posted that idea? Hmmmmmmmm... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Guns are awesome, way cooler than swords and bows. every time on an rpg they are made pretty well balanced or weaker than bow swords and magic, I mean you already have the bow, which is also a ranged weapon, a gun wouldn't kill. And I think it would fit in the Next Divine Divinity as you already have the crafty dwarves who are often associated with creating such weapons with firepower, it think it would be nice to have more rpg with guns. And yeah I agree with Arcanum, liked it more than fallout 2, you had magick, melee, or technology such as guns traps etc.. pretty sweet game and the building of item was pretty good.

Yes, not bad idea...but for the bullets, i think it should be normal bullets which charmed by magic elemental as water, fire, lightning...
And maybe add new class for it? Dwarf is an excellent choice here.
This idea also comes from my dream of making a new RPG...I have a tons of new ideas, which are possible and very interesting i'm sure..the problem is my English..too bad, maybe i will describe it by pictures and post it here?

btw..its kinda sad that our forums is being abandoned...

I'm sure the forum will spark to life again once a new game comes out - or possibly sooner if we get a lot more info on the new game to discuss

yeah I noticed since my last time they aren't as active, and that game looks amazing, I hope its not a click and wait kind of game like NWN, I hate 3d games like that, I honestly would think the dark messiah style of fighting would be great in this game, infact if DMOMM was open ended like Oblivion(crappy combat ruined the game and the same spells with different effects) it would be the best RPG ever invented.

Anyone remember Wild Arms? It wasn't just a rpg with guns, the gun was somewhat central to the main storyline. The main character knows how to use the guns or ARMs (Ancient Relic Machines), and uses one to help his village fight a demon. He is subsequently exiled from his village for using the ancient banned technology. The ARMs could be upgraded, but you could only hold a certain number of bullets of each type of ammo at a time, and they took quite some time to reload. You gained two friends in the game, but you were the only one that could use the ARMS. I liked how guns were done in that game, not saying it would work in an Divinity game, just bringing it up.

I don't know if guns would work in Divity, since they've never been there before. It might seem tacked on. If they were in there, they could be like a clunky, heavy, oversized dwarven technology. Bullets would be heavy and hard to come by (similar to how Scorpion traps are). They could pack a big punch of purely physical damage (like Hell Spikes) but would be balanced out by long recuperation times (think of how long it took to reload a revolutionary war era rifle compared to how long it takes to swing a cutlass a second time).

And something that would make a bigger difference between bow vs gun, in DD at least, bows had a delay in flight, so if your target moved, your arrow would miss (nevermind rolling for to-hit, AC etc). And there's of course no way to lead your target in DD. Maybe guns would have significantly less flight delay time, so they almost always at least hit your target. Just my thoughts.