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#40781 19/03/03 06:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Raze Offline OP
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The most obvious difference between classes is the special move.

Warrior: Swirl Attack - Lets you spin around, hitting all of the monsters surrounding you; useful for clearing out mobs. IMO, this is probably the best special move, though I have not experimented with other classes. If you drink a shadow potion and use the swirl attack near (but not directly targeting a monster) you can do damage without turning visible.

Survivor: Sneaking - Lets you crouch down and move around undetected. Effective at the start of the game, but AFAIK it does not do as good a job fooling higher level monsters. This can be used to loot, giving you a much better chance of going undetected by nearby NPCs. While sneaking, ranged magic attacks will not turn you visible. It can also be used to exploit a bug for super speed. As I recall, if you sneak, use a frog statuette, run around until your stamina drains, then transform back to human, you will keep the frog's speed. The post in the old forum was titled 'SUper speed (for anyone who got bored of walking/running)'. If I got the details wrong, I will reply to this post with the link when the old forum comes back online.

Wizard: Swap location - Useful for strategic relocation during battle. It can also be used to swap places with merchants to get them out of their shops. In most cases, if they can not see you, you can loot without getting caught (this will not work with Kistandalius in Ars Magicana). You can also bypass the guards at the throne room entrance in the dwarven hall (who temporarily take all of your stuff) by swapping locations with one of the guards inside.


A much greater influence due to class is the way secondary characteristics are calculated. There are a couple stats which are generic; everyone gets 20 weight per strength point and 300 stamina per constitution point. Other secondary stats are calculated as follows:

Warrior

Survivor

Wizard

Vitality per constitution point

6

5

4

Mana per intelligence point

3

4

6

Damage per strength point

0.4

0.14

0.1



Offense and Defense are slightly more complicated, and based on agility (Ag);

Warrior

Survivor

Wizard

Offense

0.8*Ag

0.7*Ag - 1

0.7*Ag - 1

Defense

0.7*Ag - 1

0.8*Ag

0.7*Ag - 1



When a calculation results in a fraction, it is rounded down for the display. I would assume/hope it would be carried through the game's calculations with greater precision.

Aside from voice and appearance, the only difference between male and female characters are the starting skills. The secondary stat calculations are the same.

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Raze Offline OP
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The maximum chance to hit is 94% and the minimum chance to be hit is 19%. Raising your agility higher than this will not provide any benefit, though you probably will not run into this during normal game play.

The chance to hit and be hit are based on your offense/defense (agility) and your character level. Since level 50 is approximately the average ending level for the game, that is used in the example below.


Agility required to reach the limits of offense and defense (character level 50)

Warrior

Survivor

Wizard

Offense (94%)

150

172

172

Defense (19%)

186

163

186



In practice, you may want to keep an eye on your offense/defense as you level up, and put enough points into agility to keep the chance to hit and be hit within an acceptable range, based on your playing style. Melee or archer characters really benefit from a high agility. Sometimes getting the first hit in can make a significant difference in a fight, especially combined with Stun (for melee) or Poison Arrow (for archers), etc.

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That's the table I saw! Many thanks

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Originally Posted by Raze
The maximum chance to hit is 94% and the minimum chance to be hit is 19%. Raising your agility higher than this will not provide any benefit, though you probably will not run into this during normal game play.

The chance to hit and be hit are based on your offense/defense (agility) and your character level. Since level 50 is approximately the average ending level for the game, that is used in the example below.


Agility required to reach the limits of offense and defense (character level 50)

Warrior

Survivor

Wizard

Offense (94%)

150

172

172

Defense (19%)

186

163

186



In practice, you may want to keep an eye on your offense/defense as you level up, and put enough points into agility to keep the chance to hit and be hit within an acceptable range, based on your playing style. Melee or archer characters really benefit from a high agility. Sometimes getting the first hit in can make a significant difference in a fight, especially combined with Stun (for melee) or Poison Arrow (for archers), etc.

Sorry for bumping an 8 year old thread but could you explain how you got this information?

I'm playing a Survivor this time and I decided I'd try a pure agility build, I'm currently at level 25 and after items my stats are:
Strength: 20
Agility: 151
Intelligence: 10
Constitution: 22

I'm using a bow, I have a few items with vitality bonuses but basically against bosses it takes at most three hits to kill me, however I almost never get hit. Against standard enemies who don't move as fast I never get killed, traps and hell spikes often one hit me though which is a balls.

From your table it looks like once I get to Agility to 163 the chance of being hit won't reduce any more, surely that depends on the Agility (Offense) of whoever is attacking me? Is that based on the highest Offense of an enemy in the game? I am also playing on Normal difficulty, I presume that makes a difference, I've been meaning to increase the difficulty up but I keep forgetting.

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Raze Offline OP
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I used iZakaroN's SaveEditor (or from Kiya's site, with description) to give new characters of each class hundreds of free stat points, and for the offense and defense table, enough experience to reach level 50 (see here). I added stat points to individual stats and observed the listed results, using a spreadsheet to determine the formula that the game used.

In the descriptions for the offense and defense (at least for the disk version of the game), the chance to hit and be hit is based on an average opponent your own level, so the agility and level of individual opponents will effect the actual chance to hit and be hit.

Since opponent stats are effected by the difficulty level, that also influences the listed chance to hit and be hit, though the formula for the secondary stats, offense and defense are the same regardless of difficulty setting. For example, a survivor on hard at level 50 would need an agility of 175 to get the chance to be hit down to 19% and 186 to get the chance to hit up to 94%.


Playing a warrior on normal, I ended up averaging 2 stat points in constitution per level (I also favoured vitality bonuses on equipment, after the armour rating or damage where applicable). Hell Spikes could do some damage mid-game, but traps were not much of a problem after the beginning of the game. Spell Shield can help with traps and poison, while Aura of Guarding helps with Hell Spikes and other physical damage (I maxed both with purchased spell books; and used them for awhile mid-game).

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Okay thanks, so realistically there's not much point in putting too much more points into Agility for now then. I'll have to experiment with the difficulty setting too. What is the actual formula for your chance to be hit by the way (I am using the disk version)? The manual doesn't say anything and my googling attempts are failing me.


This started as an experiment but it works very well with a bow seeing as it's so powerful. I cleared out the entire Orc camp around level 18, Baluk was the only threat as he moved fast but I just froze him, ran and fired, he went down fast. So far the only real trouble I've had was encountering Melora and Victorio a bit too early, the traps before the Engineer and fighting the Engineer (Hell Spikes), in the end I just paid him off rather than trying to fight him. I don't really use spells as my mana is so low, I mostly rely on Passive skills.

This doesn't really work as well for mÍlťe with daggers and Assassin's Kiss, as though I take enemies down fast I also can't take many hits (virtually no armour of vitality!). It'll probably get harder in the Dark Forest and Wastelands but by then I'll have higher Vitality anyway. I wanted to try something different as I've played it through as a Warrior before. I would say maxing Agility early as a ranged Survivor makes the early and mid-game easier than a Warrior with taking a mix of Strength, Vitality and Agility. I'll see how I get on in the harder areas and let you know if you're interested, there isn't too much written about playing as a Survivor.

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I never tried figuring out the formula for the chance to hit or be hit, since it would require a bunch of data points at multiple character levels, the only values the game lists are for an average opponent, and the result wouldn't really be of that much interest.

With my warrior I only ever put 1 stat point into Intelligence (to replace a point lost when I completed a certain quest one way), and was able to rely on equipment bonuses for my (limited) mana requirements.

In the previous forum there were a couple topics on survivor builds, but not much was recreated (this topic contains some info). You could start a new topic with the results of your build.

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I like playing as a Survivor type smile
Funny is that start playing DD in the beginning (years ago!) I didn't like using a bow, but now I like that very much ! Skills like Poison Weapon (in combination with Freeze on Orcs, there're very fast killed!) and Elemental Arrows (good against many many kind of enemies!) are great & fun !

But I never bothered about the "hit or to be hit" formula's, although, I sometimes try to do some research, but give up and have more fun to play and now I don't wish to know too much .. I left that part for the dev's or .... lol



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it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
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Yeah I quite like playing with a bow now too actually, though I think that's partly because it's quicker, at the moment I'm in the Verdistis Sewers and having a ranged weapon is easier than having to chase down each Lizard Fanatic and Lizard Assassin. Though I always like having a sword in these kind of games. Apart from Freeze Level 1 and Restoration I don't use any Mage spells, I do plenty damage with my Tailored Long Bow and True Shot as it is -- actually Raze in [this thread you said "True Sight - broken (even without it, archery is very effective)", do you mean True Shot rather than True Sight?

The reason I was asking about the formula is because I seem to get hit a lot less frequently than one in five. When I first saw this thread I decided I'd see how quickly I could get to an Agility of 163 with a Survivor ignoring everything else and see if it was playable, so far it's fine, though the Wastelands may be a different kettle of fish.

I might write sort kind of a guide actually when I'm done -- though I've a long way to go yet, I've covered all of the first map except Stormfist Castle and done some of Verdistis but haven't even entered the Dark Forest. I'm not sure if completely ignoring the Dark Forest until now is wise, maybe I should have split it up a bit more, I always play it like this (though I've only played it through completely once before).

I also had to put one point into intelligence after that certain quest, I reloaded numerous times to see if it was random but each time I lost one point from Strength, Agility and Intelligence, not sure if it's predetermined when you begin the game or that's always the case.

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Yes, I meant True Shot; in the disk version of the game the skill does not actually add a damage bonus (same with the damage portion of Crossbow Expertise). True Sight works fine, but there are few opponents in the game that use invisibility, so it is not worth the skill points to learn.


I did most of Rivertown and Verdistis before entering Stormfist castle, and only after that went to the Dark Forest.
For the quest with the vampire, the number of points lost and where from is random, but I'm not sure when it is determined. From 1 to 4 points can be lost, though 3 is by far the most common; I think one point I lost was in constitution and then the third came from strength or agility.


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