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There is a 2 day limit on editing posts.

FWIW, I though it was clear the original question was for the disk version.

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Originally Posted by Imarion
Hello,
Which kind of DRM will DKS use ?

Is there any kind of internet activation or limited number of installs ?

I just bought a game that requires steam (I didn't check requirements before buying mad) and now I'm stuck with steam which I completely hate and avoided until now.

And from now on I will check before buying, lesson is learned.
I'm from Belgium, this may be of importance.

Imarion


Most Retail-boxed games that requires Steam, there should be a Steamworks symbol somewhere and/or mention of the SSA on the box somewhere in fine print - usually, it's on the back of the box.


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There is internet activation even with the retail version.

Imarion

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Bloody hell.

I was looking forward to picking up this game on Steam and now the publisher is telling me I have to install the PIECE OF SHIT SecuROM, with a 5 machine install limit to boot? What the fuck were they thinking? Seriously.

Why can't publishers just fuck off and stop treating me like a thief? I wanted to purchase the game on Steam, isn't Steam bloody enough as DRM??? Do I seriously have to resort to cracking games just so I don't feel like I'm RENTING the purchased game???

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I purchased my game from GG. After installing I had to activate on line which took all of 30 seconds, and that was that. No cd in the drive, no nags, no nasty piece of malware, easy as pie. cool


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Originally Posted by Paris
I purchased my game from GG. After installing I had to activate on line which took all of 30 seconds, and that was that. No cd in the drive, no nags, no nasty piece of malware, easy as pie. cool


Except for the fact that you can only install the game five times, before being forced to ask the merciful publisher to reset said limit. It's insulting.

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Originally Posted by Mromson
Originally Posted by Paris
I purchased my game from GG. After installing I had to activate on line which took all of 30 seconds, and that was that. No cd in the drive, no nags, no nasty piece of malware, easy as pie. cool


Except for the fact that you can only install the game five times, before being forced to ask the merciful publisher to reset said limit. It's insulting.


At least proper uninstalls 'restore' an activation. I still would prefer that it did not have a limit though.

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Originally Posted by Mromson
Originally Posted by Paris
I purchased my game from GG. After installing I had to activate on line which took all of 30 seconds, and that was that. No cd in the drive, no nags, no nasty piece of malware, easy as pie. cool


Except for the fact that you can only install the game five times, before being forced to ask the merciful publisher to reset said limit. It's insulting.


That is not entirely correct. It's restricted to 5 activations, not installs. You only burn an install when you install onto a brand new hardware configuration. It means if you dump windows, reformat, reinstall, and go to reactivate, you don't burn an extra activation. Unless you're the type to install on 5 different machines, or you change hardware dramatically, you shouldn't ever run into a problem.

Also if you take the time to uninstall your app, you return the activation, and beyond all that, there's I think a mass deactivation tool you can run to take care of all that.

-shrugs- I hate DRM as much if not more than most people and have balked at buying games that use it on principle, but it's nowhere near as onerous as people make it out to be either.

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Originally Posted by ForceInfinity
Originally Posted by Mromson
Originally Posted by Paris
I purchased my game from GG. After installing I had to activate on line which took all of 30 seconds, and that was that. No cd in the drive, no nags, no nasty piece of malware, easy as pie. cool


Except for the fact that you can only install the game five times, before being forced to ask the merciful publisher to reset said limit. It's insulting.


That is not entirely correct. It's restricted to 5 activations, not installs. You only burn an install when you install onto a brand new hardware configuration. It means if you dump windows, reformat, reinstall, and go to reactivate, you don't burn an extra activation. Unless you're the type to install on 5 different machines, or you change hardware dramatically, you shouldn't ever run into a problem.

Also if you take the time to uninstall your app, you return the activation, and beyond all that, there's I think a mass deactivation tool you can run to take care of all that.

-shrugs- I hate DRM as much if not more than most people and have balked at buying games that use it on principle, but it's nowhere near as onerous as people make it out to be either.


That's not how it works. Simply changing the MOBO will invalidate the install and copying the install folder will do jack all shit if the proper SecuROM files aren't present.

I have three PC's: Two stationary ones at two different locations and a gaming laptop for when I travel. I upgrade my Stationary PC's every two years or so (unless they crash for whatever reason) - so for all intents and purposes, I could easily lose the right to use the game I purchased after less than five years. This is totally unacceptable.

What this basically tells me is that it's simpler to just pirate the game - that way I won't have to worry about install limits or any of that bullshit, because hey! The game was available illegally before the bloody release date.

Do people not care for consumer rights anymore?

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Originally Posted by Mromson
Originally Posted by ForceInfinity
Originally Posted by Mromson
Originally Posted by Paris
I purchased my game from GG. After installing I had to activate on line which took all of 30 seconds, and that was that. No cd in the drive, no nags, no nasty piece of malware, easy as pie. cool


Except for the fact that you can only install the game five times, before being forced to ask the merciful publisher to reset said limit. It's insulting.


That is not entirely correct. It's restricted to 5 activations, not installs. You only burn an install when you install onto a brand new hardware configuration. It means if you dump windows, reformat, reinstall, and go to reactivate, you don't burn an extra activation. Unless you're the type to install on 5 different machines, or you change hardware dramatically, you shouldn't ever run into a problem.

Also if you take the time to uninstall your app, you return the activation, and beyond all that, there's I think a mass deactivation tool you can run to take care of all that.

-shrugs- I hate DRM as much if not more than most people and have balked at buying games that use it on principle, but it's nowhere near as onerous as people make it out to be either.


That's not how it works. Simply changing the MOBO will invalidate the install and copying the install folder will do jack all shit if the proper SecuROM files aren't present.

I have three PC's: Two stationary ones at two different locations and a gaming laptop for when I travel. I upgrade my Stationary PC's every two years or so (unless they crash for whatever reason) - so for all intents and purposes, I could easily lose the right to use the game I purchased after less than five years. This is totally unacceptable.

What this basically tells me is that it's simpler to just pirate the game - that way I won't have to worry about install limits or any of that bullshit, because hey! The game was available illegally before the bloody release date.

Do people not care for consumer rights anymore?


Well the MOBO change is a fairly dramatic hardware change (as I mentioned above as a scenario that causes a problem), and if you uninstall the game first and reinstall later you dont have the problem.

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish getting upset at me. I'm not your enemy here. The DRM is. The only point I was attempting to make is that I find DRM to be repugnant on principle, however for people like myself who has just the single machine and a laptop, I've not ran into too many hitches other than I have to go through the trouble of uninstalling the game first prior to conducting the upgrade.

As to pirating, all I can say is knock yourself out. I'm too paranoid about the whole trojan/botnet/rootkit junk out there to where I wouldn't trust any firewall, virus-scanner, etc to keep my machine safe to even think of downloading it. If you have more faith in your system security, then by all means knock yourself out. For my perspective, to quote Wargames, the only winning move is not to play.

Last edited by ForceInfinity; 06/11/10 06:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by ForceInfinity
Originally Posted by Mromson
Originally Posted by ForceInfinity
Originally Posted by Mromson
[quote=Paris]I purchased my game from GG. After installing I had to activate on line which took all of 30 seconds, and that was that. No cd in the drive, no nags, no nasty piece of malware, easy as pie. cool


Except for the fact that you can only install the game five times, before being forced to ask the merciful publisher to reset said limit. It's insulting.


That is not entirely correct. It's restricted to 5 activations, not installs. You only burn an install when you install onto a brand new hardware configuration. It means if you dump windows, reformat, reinstall, and go to reactivate, you don't burn an extra activation. Unless you're the type to install on 5 different machines, or you change hardware dramatically, you shouldn't ever run into a problem.

Also if you take the time to uninstall your app, you return the activation, and beyond all that, there's I think a mass deactivation tool you can run to take care of all that.

-shrugs- I hate DRM as much if not more than most people and have balked at buying games that use it on principle, but it's nowhere near as onerous as people make it out to be either.


That's not how it works. Simply changing the MOBO will invalidate the install and copying the install folder will do jack all shit if the proper SecuROM files aren't present.

I have three PC's: Two stationary ones at two different locations and a gaming laptop for when I travel. I upgrade my Stationary PC's every two years or so (unless they crash for whatever reason) - so for all intents and purposes, I could easily lose the right to use the game I purchased after less than five years. This is totally unacceptable.

What this basically tells me is that it's simpler to just pirate the game - that way I won't have to worry about install limits or any of that bullshit, because hey! The game was available illegally before the bloody release date.

Do people not care for consumer rights anymore?


Well the MOBO change is a fairly dramatic hardware change (as I mentioned above as a scenario that causes a problem), and if you uninstall the game first and reinstall later you dont have the problem.

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish getting upset at me. I'm not your enemy here. The DRM is. The only point I was attempting to make is that I find DRM to be repugnant on principle, however for people like myself who has just the single machine and a laptop, I've not ran into too many hitches other than I have to go through the trouble of uninstalling the game first prior to conducting the upgrade.

As to pirating, all I can say is knock yourself out. I'm too paranoid about the whole trojan/botnet/rootkit junk out there to where I wouldn't trust any firewall, virus-scanner, etc to keep my machine safe to even think of downloading it. If you have more faith in your system security, then by all means knock yourself out. For my perspective, to quote Wargames, the only winning move is not to play. [/quote]
I apologize if I've seemed to get upset, however I find it rather infuriating when people are in any way defending SecuROM.

I do not like being told that the game I paid full price for is merely a rental. Everything else is insignificant. Having to be careful about uninstalling the game regardless of circumstance is utterly absurd. Imagine for instance, if EVERY PIECE OF SOFTWARE required you to "uninstall the program properly" when you wished to reformat the HDD, or when you merely wished to upgrade the CPU and MOBO. Can you suddenly SEE the hassle? Now imagine if you that have a choice in the matter, whether it's a virus or a mere HDD crash - suddenly you lose one fifth of your "generous" publishers "permission" to use the product YOU PAID FOR.

Imagine five years down the round (which frankly isn't that much) - suddenly, you don't own your own game anymore, because you're out of installs. Then what? Call the publisher and beg to reset the activation count? PROVE that you're not some sticky thief? Is this how the publisher and (by extension) the developer wishes to treat it's customers? To mingle us with hassle for no purpose whatsoever, like a bunch of untrustworthy thieves?

I KNOW that publishers can do better - but they won't do so until people tell them to fucking FUCK OFF with their intransitive ignorance and insult towards consumers.

I mean - why do you think I'm even making this post? Because I'm scared of viruses or trojans and whatnot? No. Pirating software is easier than eating pie - there are plenty of safety nets associated with the pirating community which ensure that I don't have to check twice to see if I'm downloading something safe. As you can see - I don't have scruples against pirating, and iv I had to I'd defend that to the bone. But I clearly wish to pay for this game, as I'm of the firm belief that good work and a good product should be rewarded - but if I am to give up my money, I will at the very least demand not to be treated like child. Otherwise there is no reason to support the developer and I shall enjoy my fix from other sources.

If silly foolishness such as this causes a company to go down, then I'm all for it - because I won't do business with anyone who treats me like a piece of trash.

Last edited by Mromson; 06/11/10 11:52 PM.
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What I would like to see as a deterent to pirating would be to reward not pirating. An example of I mean would be to have some kind of agreement in the purchase that, in addition to what they get from the initial purchase, there will additional content for people with the game with the amount depending on the net profit (not counting the cost of making the additional content). Then people that get the game illegally will not only be hurting the company but everyone the paid for the game.

Such a measure would likely not effect fans (who will buy the game because they want more games like it) and hardcore pirates (who do not care), but it would likely decrease pirating from people inbetween. The reason pirating is increasing is because it is not precieved as being wrong by more and more people (or at least not wrong enough to out wiegh the amount of money they could save by getting it illegally) and something like this would change that. Now pirating would not just hurt a (to non-fans) annonamous company, but individual consumers would be hurt as well. People that have had their purchase devalued by pirating will be less likely to do so themselves.

This would be a slow process but I think over time it would reverse the current trend toward pirating.

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The only way to stop pirating is to do something like Stardock, game is DRM free, but patches can ONLY be gotten from their own source.


Otherwise, the Pirates get the Better product, no DRM, and a great game to play.

Current DRM like Securom and limited installs make others WANT to pirate, and honestly, I can't blame them. Limiting the rights of the Consumer is never the way to insure the consumer buys your product, rewarding them with limited items, content and support is.

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Originally Posted by Jasmine Moldovia
The only way to stop pirating is to do something like Stardock, game is DRM free, but patches can ONLY be gotten from their own source.


Otherwise, the Pirates get the Better product, no DRM, and a great game to play.

Current DRM like Securom and limited installs make others WANT to pirate, and honestly, I can't blame them. Limiting the rights of the Consumer is never the way to insure the consumer buys your product, rewarding them with limited items, content and support is.


Hence my post about additional content that is dependant upon sales (which would also make customers more likely to try and get others to buy the game). Given that DRMs tend to get overcome fairly quickly, some people believe limited installs artificially boost sales by killing the second hand game market, making it seem as though they prevent piracy.

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I was in essence agreeing with you. I hate limited installs partly because it kills the second hand market, if I buy something, I buy it, and own it, which means if I want I should be able to sell it any time I want.

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I was just looking at this on Steam when I noticed the "3rd-party DRM: SecuROM™
5 machine activation limit" note under the game details.

I have no tolerance for this at all. Steam alone ought to be enough. Steam I can live with. Limited activations don't fly with me. You lost a customer here. Buh-bye!

Last edited by Zapper Weisman; 07/11/10 10:02 AM. Reason: DRM sux
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I must admit, as a normally loyal Larian customer, I will not be getting this version of the game, either.

I won't pirate it - I refuse to do that - but no single player offline game should require online activation, and ANY install limit is just rubbing salt into the wound.

This is customer abuse, pure and simple, and I will have nothing to do with it.


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Either I've totally misread, or uninstalling the game returns one of the 5 activations.
This means that the only way you'd lose them is if your computer physically broke so you couldn't uninstall? Usually you can just hook up the HDD to another pc and do it that way, because HDDs are rarely the first thing to break, multiple times anyway... and as previously mentioned if the server for activating it dies or whatnot, then there will be a crack available because the DRM folks won't be there to release code to counter the crack. So either way you'll never lose the ability install the game. I don't see any issue here?


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Any DRM, Steam included, is insulting if you ask me. If Steam wanted to truly be customer friendly then the online features would be optional and you could install offline. Same with SecuROM, limited activations? Screw you... I don't agree with it, it's insulting, it tries to tell us we should pay the same price for renting software as we used to for buying it outright (yes I know the manuals always called it a license but that meant nothing without the power to enforce it).

All that said... I don't find it insulting enough to not support the game and the remaining PC developers for two reasons:

1) As long as the publisher exists they will make sure you can play your game.
2) If the publisher dies you can crack the game and no one will care. Cracking DRM is easy on the PC because it's an open platform. I don't support cracks for games unless you NEED to do that to run them, but in that case there is nothing wrong with it and it's always an option on the PC.

Steam or SecuROM style DRM on a closed platform game is complete and utter BS though and I will never support it. I don't play console games anyway, which makes this easy.

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I remember several years ago, even before the internet became a common thing, and games still came on 3.5 inch disks, very rarely on CDs. I had several games that once you installed the game or copied the disks 3-5 times, you could no longer install the game or copy the disks. During that time, there was no indication on the box or the manual that you were limited on installs. You would only find out when you tried to install the game the 3rd or 5th time and it would not let you stating that you have installed the game to many times. Yup, I had several games that I could no longer play back then.

Online activation with install limits is no where near as bad as that. I only have 1 game where I have reached the max install limit, and that was Two Worlds, and you dont get an activation back when you uninstall the game like you do with Divinity 2. Anyways, when ever I feel like installing the game again, I have to call the publisher to get the game activated. Literally takes 30 seconds on the phone, and never on hold. I tell them I want to activate the game, I give them some numbers that the game gave me and they give me numbers back to type into the game. I know there is a crack to bypass all of that if you don't want to play Multi player though.

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