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Hey guys, make clear about something:

1 - In ED there are was real Dragon Talana or it was Ygerna in the first place? And how Ygerna can give our Slayer power of Dragon if she is dead and not even a Dragon? Or i missed something?

2 - Why all characters in the ED and FoV address to our Slayer like he\she is last Dragon? Later in ED we met Patriarch, the real old Dragon. So how our Slayer can be last? Even very old and wise Behrlihn say something like than "last Ouroboros or Dragon heir".



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1. Nobody yet knows the answer. It was discussed a lot in Div2;ED section and on our russian forums (ag.ru) bur so far no solid theory has place. Mostly, ppl agree that either Ygerna possessed Talana or there was NO real dragon powers offered to the hero. It's indeed looks like a hole in the plot.

2. First, I'd like to clarify some things: DK != dragons. The real, true Dragons is a different beings. I remember it was mentioned in some book that they almost gone from the Rivendell. Cosider the fact that almost all their descendants (Dragon Knight) were killed by Dragon Slayers it's understandable why everyone calls you as the last DK. Since you're the last one.

Btw, the The Ouroboros was the last real Dragon Knight (he obtained the power from the dragons himself). Note how BIG he was. Almost like a Dragon.

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I might be wrong but wasn't Ouroboros the Dragon Gods?

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No, he was the Dragon Knight. He ruled the Fjords once, landlord of sumtin. Meh, read the Dragon Knight History.

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1. Nobody yet knows the answer. It was discussed a lot in Div2;ED section and on our russian forums (ag.ru) bur so far no solid theory has place.

That is sad and game-story never explain this moment either. =\

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Btw, the The Ouroboros was the last real Dragon Knight (he obtained the power from the dragons himself). Note how BIG he was. Almost like a Dragon.


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No, he was the Dragon Knight. He ruled the Fjords once, landlord of sumtin. Meh, read the Dragon Knight History.

That is very strange, because in Lovis tower, before you meet Lovis, you need to answer the questions and one of questions about Dragon god and correct answer is - "Ouroboros, god of Dragons".
Also, if you read mind of Artemas, you will hear "Smile upon me favourably Ouroboros, god of Dragons, and upon Orobas, my kind master, now and in the afterlife".

Last edited by DragonChevalier; 30/11/10 07:31 AM.


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Originally Posted by hd82
I might be wrong but wasn't Ouroboros the Dragon Gods?

Yes he is. Ouroboros is the god of dragons; Orobas is the Dragon Knight who lived in the fjords.

Originally Posted by DragonChevalier
1 - In ED there are was real Dragon Talana or it was Ygerna in the first place? And how Ygerna can give our Slayer power of Dragon if she is dead and not even a Dragon? Or i missed something?

Here's what happened. Talana was a real Dragon Knight, the last one alive. After being mortally wounded by Rhode she meets you and with her last efforts grants you her dragon powers in a vision. In this vision she also shows you the forces of the true enemy: Damian.

Talana is now dead and Zandalor becomes your guide. From here on however, Ygerna sounds in your head, posing as Talana. No one knows she is playing you, you don't even know it because you have every reason to believe she is in fact Talana.

That is the deceit that is taking place. Ygerna seeks a saviour from within the afterworld and chose you because of the unprecedented events that take place. Only a Dragon Knight can survive in the Hall of Echoes, but she can't corrupt Talana. You on the other hand have no idea what's really going on and Ygerna makes use of this weakness.

The Divine explains this in more detail when you first meet him. Here's the complete text of what he says so you can have a closer look (if you're up for it wink ):

I’d bid you welcome, Dragon Knight, were this a place one would want to be welcomed to. Yet do not judge it too unfavourably off hand, for it is here you shall have to learn the meaning of eternity.

Poor creature. Ygerna has claimed another soul and Damian, my… my son, is stronger than ever. Yes, that is what I call him still despite everything.

No doubt you have guessed the truth by now: I am Lucian, the Divine. Quite alive, yet often wishing I was not as I dwell in this half-world, this cageless prison designed to keep me ever conscious and so suffer the torment of awareness. To be a wordless witness to the Damned One’s deeds.

Nonetheless, I have often shouted out in vain at one who unwittingly advanced Damian’s schemes by doing the bidding of his dark mistress. From the very Hall of Echoes she skimmed the surface of Rivellon for her knight in shining armour - who was to be both strong enough to find her, and weak enough to be controlled.

Then there you came: a formidable Slayer blessed with the power of the Dragon, but humbled by a mind exposed after a ritual incomplete. It was Ygerna who led you here, not Talana.

As she took on the guise of that courageous woman and showed you a vision of things to come, this sinister empress led you to believe the lie even my old friend Zandalor held to be true: Ygerna’s life is Damian’s death.

No, Dragon Knight, Ygerna’s life is Damian’s invincibility as I learned from my accursed son himself. They have been questing for the same outcome from within the Hall of Echoes and from without.

Ygerna was the first to triumph. You, her champion, ensured that victory against all odds: against her lover, even, who never realised you wanted to find her soul for resurrection, not destruction.

Now nothing is left for us, lost phantoms caught in their sinister webs, but to watch as they lay claim to Rivellon and obliterate all that the heroes of man have spilled so much blood to protect. We will watch as the Damned One and his queen wade to their victory through war's crimson rivers.


Now, I should point out that even the Divine knows not all. He says - for instance - that now Damian and Ygerna are invincible. In Flames of Vengeance you prove this to be untrue. He also says it is Ygerna who was responsible for the vision, but that was probably Talana. smile Some minor things remain a mystery. rpg006

Hopefully that clears things up a bit, but feel free to discuss and - if you are so inclined - voice more doubts!


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That is very strange, because in Lovis tower, before you meet Lovis, you need to answer the questions and one of questions about Dragon god and correct answer is - "Ouroboros, god of Dragons".
Also, if you read mind of Artemas, you will hear "Smile upon me favourably Ouroboros, god of Dragons, and upon Orobas, my kind master, now and in the afterlife".

Oh right, silly me. I just didn't play to much attention to the spelling :< Sorry.

Orobas was a DK, Ouroboros was the dragon. Thanks to Macbeth for pointing @ that.

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Talana is now dead and Zandalor becomes your guide. From here on however, Ygerna sounds in your head, posing as Talana.

Still, there is a questions remains: HOW? How she just possessed you? If she can so easy leave Hall of Echoes, why make all that complicated mess, there was much easier ways to do the things.

Also:
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He says - for instance - that now Damian and Ygerna are invincible.

I dunno about Ygerna, it's just random make-up for Div2, but, if we accept the whole Divinity Universe (DD+BD+story_before_DD), then the Divine One was correct: Damian is the Lord of Chaos and he can't be killed/destroyed. he always come back. So far I haven't found any sane reason why Larian ruined the previous setting and changed almost everything in Div2 series.

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Originally Posted by Kein
Still, there is a questions remains: HOW? How she just possessed you? If she can so easy leave Hall of Echoes, why make all that complicated mess, there was much easier ways to do the things.

Ok, let's clarify further. smile

How? Well, she doesn't really possess you, now does she? You get dragon powers from Talana and you make your way through the game with the powers you have, but Ygerna just steers things. She doesn't actively control you, she just suggests things you need to do in order to – you think – kill her, but in fact – as she well knows – to free her.

She can't, after all, leave the Hall of Echoes, but she talks to you from within it. You never actually see Ygerna until you meet her in her memory. This means that you only actually meet her real self at the very end of Flames of Vengeance.

You see a dying Talana; you see a dead Talana on the ground in dragon form, but you never saw Ygerna. She is just the impostor in your head whom you have no reason to doubt as even Zandalor never guesses her scheme.

Originally Posted by Kein
I dunno about Ygerna, it's just random make-up for Div2, but, if we accept the whole Divinity Universe (DD+BD+story_before_DD), then the Divine One was correct: Damian is the Lord of Chaos and he can't be killed/destroyed. he always come back. So far I haven't found any sane reason why Larian ruined the previous setting and changed almost everything in Div2 series.

You can dislike the story line of course, but it does not ruin the universe. The story of Divinity II is just one of the many ways you could envision the story of Damian and the Divine continuing – keeping in mind the real life constraints there are when making a big game with a relatively small team. wink

One thing though, I must correct, and that is when you say 'Damian is the Lord of Chaos and he can't be killed/destroyed'. This is not quite true. Damian has the essence of the Chaos Lord in him, but he isn't the Lord of Chaos yet! This is a very important thing to keep in mind when thinking of the way the story develops and will develop. Again, an in-game character explains this in more detail. This time it's Thaddeus. Among the many things he says, he tells you the following about Damian:

Player: So Behrlihn is a follower of Damian, then.

Thaddeus: Yes, in so far that the human Damian is now the shell in which the Chaos Demon dwells and evolves. (...)

Player: If I understand correctly, Damian is a budding Demon – one who has not yet reached full growth.

Thaddeus: Oh, yes! The true Lord of Chaos has not yet been freed: the Black Ring was never as strong as the wizards that once supported him. But they did succeed in kindling his spirit within that creature Damian, where as yet it is but a flame waiting for conflagration. I don't know how that sinister design could be brought to reality, but never doubt he and his believers work tirelessly to bring the Demon about!


You can always go back to him in the game and ask him about all this again. He doesn't mind, I assure you! rpg007


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Ok, let's clarify further.

Explanation on explanation without solid conclusions for such a simple and linear story. No offence lady Macbeth, but that's the thing fanboys usually do :P

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making a big game with a relatively small team.

Well yeah, that usually leads to such small errors. But that does not means there is no such errors. In my opinion - one shouldn't ignore them.

I'm looking forward to Div3 and real non-linear story :P Give us a hint if it's planned? :o

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What errors? You presume to know the "simple & linear" story (yet at the same also a "complicated mess") better than one of the Larian developers?

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Originally Posted by Kein
Explanation on explanation without solid conclusions for such a simple and linear story. No offence lady Macbeth, but that's the thing fanboys usually do :P

Lord Macbeth actually, if you want to use a title. wink

I elaborated because you asked more questions, that's all. In my mind the story is quite clear, but it is - granted - perhaps a tad overtly complex and you need to pay really close attention to the story to grasp it all. It is all in there, in the game I mean - as the quotes illustrate - but again: miss them and you might be somewhat at a loss as to what really happened. Hence your next remark:

Originally Posted by Kein
Well yeah, that usually leads to such small errors. But that does not means there is no such errors. In my opinion - one shouldn't ignore them.

We don't. Really. smile There's a learning process involved and next time we'll try to do better. (To give a personal example, this is the first game I ever wrote the dialogs for and obviously I know a lot more about the do-s and don't-s now that the game is finished. There are lessons I took with me from Ego Draconis to Flames of Vengeance and new ones from FoV that I'll take with me to the next project.)

Originally Posted by Kein
I'm looking forward to Div3 and real non-linear story :P Give us a hint if it's planned? :o

I can't say more than what Lar has already revealed, but I hope everyone here is exited to know that there is in fact another title that we are working on and that we will try to make it a great game to the best of our abilities.


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Lord Macbeth actually, if you want to use a title.

Oh noez, it's a TRAP! :o
j/k

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I can't say more than what Lar has already revealed, but I hope everyone here is exited to know that there is in fact another title that we are working on and that we will try to make it a great game to the best of our abilities.

No doubt here ;P

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In my mind the story is quite clear, but it is - granted - perhaps a tad overtly complex and you need to pay really close attention to the story to grasp it all.

No, I think the problem is: there is not so much explanation in game. We just see the action, but hardly see real logic/events flow/thread behind it. I'm sure you have the explanation for the Damian's stupidness (his whole actions was a bit... retarded), but personally I think those explanations must be shown in the game.

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We don't. Really. There's a learning process involved and next time we'll try to do better. (To give a personal example, this is the first game I ever wrote the dialogs for and obviously I know a lot more about the do-s and don't-s now that the game is finished. There are lessons I took with me from Ego Draconis to Flames of Vengeance and new ones from FoV that I'll take with me to the next project.)

You wrote just dialogs or the whole story?

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Originally Posted by Kein
No, I think the problem is: there is not so much explanation in game. We just see the action, but hardly see real logic/events flow/thread behind it. I'm sure you have the explanation for the Damian's stupidness (his whole actions was a bit... retarded), but personally I think those explanations must be shown in the game.

I do agree to an extent and like I said, we do learn as we go! wink

Originally Posted by Kein
You wrote just dialogs or the whole story?

Many people contributed to the story. Dialogs are mine. meh


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Returning were as tedious as go o'er.
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I am really glad theirs going to be a 3rd game laugh... I can't wait to see were the story goes from here (I hope theirs more Dragon Knights)

P.S I wasn't trying to be funny with the first reply I just happen to have had a week of playing the Divine games and could spot the mistake ><

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Originally Posted by Macbeth
Many people contributed to the story. Dialogs are mine. meh

Hmm.. you said you were in charge of ED+FoV dialogs, but I can see that your account here was registered since 2003. Does that mean you were working on DiviDiv/BD too? AFAIR, the dialogs for those two was written by Rhianna Pratchett, so, what was your role back then? You can answer in PM, since we moved from subj ;P

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Rhianna worked on beyond, not div I believe. Anyway, back when I joined the forum in 2003 I was just another fan of Larian's RPGs. I started working for them in 2007.


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Returning were as tedious as go o'er.
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Hopefully that clears things up a bit, but feel free to discuss and - if you are so inclined - voice more doubts!

Thanks for answer, now this moment about Talana\Ygerna is more clear to me.

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We just see the action, but hardly see real logic/events flow/thread behind it.

Yeah, like Damian who able to kill our Slayer many times, but he didn't. It is obvious the game is over in our first meeting Damian if thing goes like that, but some explanation in my opinion, works fine here. Like "he was in spiritual form, so he can't harm you directly" or something else.



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I think Ygerna could get in your head because the original ritual was not complete and that's why she was able to pretend to be Talana.

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I wonder why Ygerna's death freed the Divine from his crystal; not to mention, how did the Divine end up in there in the first place?

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how did the Divine end up in there in the first place?

And how did our DK end up in there in the first place? We didn't see this moment, only cut-scene with resurrection of Ygerna. Maybe we will see the answer in the next chapter of Divinity series?



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