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Let me start off by saying that overall I really enjoyed Divinity 2 TGKS. I think you guys did so many things right that the one major flaw of the game stuck out like a sore thumb.

My biggest complaint with the game was the lack of emotional connection with any of the supporting characters - and the few characters I "did" have a connection with - you killed off. This is nearly unforgivable. The voice throughtout the first part of the game was brilliant and to have her turn against you, while I understand it, was a bummer. But then...

You killed Commander Rhode? Why? It would have been amazing to convince her to see things from our perspective and gain an ally and a friend. But no, you killed her. Turned her to stone, whatever. It was one of the lamest things I have seen done in such a good game, and that's saying something. Not every game has to have the advanced conversations and romantic sidequests of a Bioware game, but there's a reason those games are so awesome - they go above and beyond to make you feel something towards other characters. If you're designing a story and a world - Make sure the people in it aren't just cardboard fillers. It's ok to make them appear to have feelings.

I enjoyed the game but it's apparant that you people can do better than this. You're very talented but you need to focus less on the flash and more on the heart if you're going to go to the next level. Thanks for your time and for the great game.

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I know I Don't normally post on here... just mainly read what others say but... 'Rhode is dead???'. I thought she was just turned to stone by that fruit loop Bellager. I can see were your coming from though... their is a little bit of a lack of romance but I don't think any less of the game for it.

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I personally think that was a nice touch
Rhode refused to accept that Dragons were wronged and vowed to never side with a dragon knight. At the end, All of Aleroth cheer as YOU the dragon save the divine and the whole city, so there are no need for dragon slayers anymore, maybe a new era of Peace and a time for new dragon knights.
Reminds me a little of the ending of "How to train your Dragon"

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Yeah but Rhode was kinda raised to be a slayer so it would be hard for her to accept it... but maybe if she was told by the Divine himself then she would have to face the truth... Which would be hard for any Slayer to realise that all the blood they have spilt (including children's) was innocent ><

It is said in the game By the Divine himself that it was a trick by The Damned One that lead the Slayer's to try and wipe out the dragons and the Dragon Knights because they had formed an alliance with the Divine against him. He need time to re-build his army's and made sure the humans had some one else to fight wile he did so.

I agree the Dragons and their Knights were wronged big time by the Slayer's but it was the Damned One who set the hole thing up >< (Demon Of Lies or some thing isn't he?) so to me the Slayer aren't totally to blame and should be made to repent and be given a chance to regain their honour (Divinity 3? lol)

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Just want to point out though, you say the characters were like cardboard, that you felt no connection but you did feel strongly about some of them ie. Commander Rhode.
Why did she deserve another chance?
Why do you think she could have been persuaded to change her mind?
Plus i actually laughed when Bellegar appeared and claimed responsibility.
I dont think that DKS was lacking at all in character development in fact for me it was pretty much on the level.
Bioware has companions, romances because thats the backbone of their games, i mean really the combat mechanics, puzzles...er nonexistent.Open world exploration, well written dialogue with a touch of sarcasm or levity..nope just run of the mill movie nonsense that has been rehashed so many times before.
grts

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Originally Posted by hd82
I agree the Dragons and their Knights were wronged big time by the Slayer's but it was the Damned One who set the hole thing up >< (Demon Of Lies or some thing isn't he?) so to me the Slayer aren't totally to blame and should be made to repent and be given a chance to regain their honour (Divinity 3? lol)


Do you really believe this? Just imagine - some dude starts to persuade your town/willage/city to exterminate all the jypsies/muslims/jews/whatever is a favorite underdog. So what, you without any thought about the matter will take guns, and start killing people, bec. somebody told you so? Is it really plausable that one bad guy who did not kill any dragon himself set up a whole thing, and a bunch of upright citizens went on a murder spree without hesitation, without any tiny thought that this might be a wrong thing to do??? Sorry, this excuse is so freaking lame, I can't really believe people still buy it. Fantasy or not, but logic, morality and psychology still works the same as in the real world.

Pity, my dragon knight did not have a chance to kill Rhode personally. I would really like this. And to consider Rhode as a possible romantic interest after what she has done is kind of weird. If I were a girl, I would sooner go with Bellegar - this dude is nutcase, but a freaking funny nutcase.

I am OK with no romantic/close personal connection in D2. This is not a party RPG, a hero is on the move, and other NPCs stay behind. Also by design the last Dragon Knight is a loner, hunted by his former comrads. And, btw, people in the Broken Valley and on the Sentinel Island where we spent 75% of the game are all DEAD. It would be really depressing to get a friend, or a romance, and then learn that they have been killed.

Last edited by vivaxardas; 08/12/10 07:02 PM.
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You guys do realize we are speaking of a demon spreading word, not from himself directly, of a race banding together to kill a god-like figure, right? Its not just anyone talking about anyone, its like Hitler spreading propaganda of the Italians, saying they were conspiring against the Jews. I am not saying anything bad about any race, but that is a better metaphor than above post. ^ this kid has no idea what story is, and I think he is a loner himself. No offense.

He obviously did not just tell us to, he told other, more trustable people to spread word of the dragons' deceit and we, obviously, decided this corrupt official was honest and right so the Slayers, a once dragon-assassin type clan, came out of the shadows and said they will do it. They did do it, almost, and then found out they were completely wrong. DUH!!!!


Some call me a hero, others call me a traiter. I am neither, I am God.
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OK, let's see:
The truth: Some Dragon Knight, acting on his own, assaulted the Divine, and made it possible to imprison him.
The Lie: Some Dragon Knight killed the Divine, and the other Dragon Knights supported him (I am not sure about this part).

Does the lie like this warrant the extermination of the entire race? And we are talking about penalizing the race for the bad deed of a single bad guy.

BTW, your example is not that good. Hitler or your Italian guys, they were your community leaders,elected heads of the states and such, so it is psychologically understandable that people trusted them. Though the excuse "I just followed orders" does not cut it. In our case, if to compare with WWII, the Dragon Slayers played a part of Rivellon Gestapo or elite SS troops, and as we all know nobody absolved them from responsibility. Just because they believed all the crap they have been told, does not make them innocent. They have been persecuted as war criminals.
And, in our case, Damien is not a Rivellon community leader, or an elected head of the state and such. He was an ARCH-ENEMY. What excuse can be made for believeing his lies???

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Godwin's law strikes again.

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wink Yeah, it's kind of hard to avoid this in discussion of a fictional genocide.
Who were Dragon Slayers - innocent victims of deception or vicious murderers who used a supposed death of the Divine as an excuse for a world-wide dragoncide? I guess Larian people know the answer, it is their story after all.

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Its fun to discuss this subject. Naturally not genocide, but the identity of Dragon Slayers.

With a name like Rhode (I named my second character Malta), you would expect them to draw parallel with the Knights Templar. Instead it appears that the Dragon Knights are the true parallel to the Knights Templar. They rose to great power, became rich and complacent, and were ultimately betrayed and nearly eradicated. History is still uncertain whether any Templars actually survived. Ultimately, the tenants of the Templars were adopted by modern masonic groups and held strong roots in founding of a great nation (disputable, I know).

I would say the identity of the Dragon Slayers are most similar to any number of middle ages religious fanatics that hold a blood feud to this day-- there are plenty of real parallel around the world including African, Asian, and Middle East. I would like to know which, if any, of these factions were used a model for the Slayers.

Last edited by candlebbq; 09/12/10 04:33 AM.
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I'm sure that while writing, history and the current state of the world seeps in subconsciously, but no matter how much I like your Templars idea, we did not consciously base any faction literally on this or that existing faction of the current or past world around us.

We merely thought of "interesting politics" for a fantasy world that would allow some tension and interesting decisions. If anything looks or smells like something from the real world is only normal, but also purely coincidental.


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Thanks for clearing that up ForkTong. What about the character names. Did you try to model them after the Greek gods of whom the names you used, or did you just adopt the names superficially?

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Some names are quite random, others are not. We used a lot of Roman names for the Champions of Aleroth for instance, whereas a lot of villagers have random names. Still, it is true that there are many names that carry a connotation or reference to something else. A couple of examples:

  • Stan and Ollie: the first names of Laurel and Hardy
  • Eugene, the axe-wielder: after the Careful with that Axe Eugene song by Pink Floyd
  • The trees Yggdrasil, Jievaras and Irminsul: after mythological trees (Norse, Lithuanian and Germanic respectively)
  • Simeon the philosopher: after Simeon the Stylite (who actually spent 37 years atop a pillar until his death)
  • Sosostra, the fortune teller: after 'Madame Sosostris, famous clairvoyante' from T.S. Eliot's poem The Waste Land

Etc. etc.

Many of the important character names though, do not have a secondary meaning. Rhode, Lovis, Zandalor, Laiken, Ygerna, Maxos: they are not intended to have further reference.



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Returning were as tedious as go o'er.
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Originally Posted by Mercannis
Just want to point out though, you say the characters were like cardboard, that you felt no connection but you did feel strongly about some of them ie. Commander Rhode.
Why did she deserve another chance?
Why do you think she could have been persuaded to change her mind?

I don't think she could. I admit I was quite surprised at her attitude when I finally caught up with her in the Maxos Temple, but after meeting her again at Aleroth (I mean in ED) she did come across as being very headstrong and impervious to reason. Discovering her fate in FoV was just further confirmation, as if any were needed. grin


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well, everyone will see it differently but I did like how they ended the story. Rhode was bound to be killed any way or another, killed by someone else or killed by you. She was fueld by hatred and couldn't see. I might have prefered to kill her myself but anyways, that's not important.

They have made a superb game with tones of highlighs and hardly any bugs and those which stood out were fixed. For a company their size they have beaten many many other big companies in quality and quantity by a large margin.

About the characters, well.. Bellegar is awesome, and for the little time I spent with "the Divine" it was great too, I enjoyed interacting with many others.. They have had great acting added up to a very original story. Thumbs up, all I can say.

Last edited by dafema; 11/12/10 03:44 AM.

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I'm glad they decided to give Rhode a proper fate, the ***** earned it in my opinion. If you are trying to draw parallels in reality with Rhode, she is a typical fascist who acts first, and asks questions later. She is the opposite of wisdom, and reasoning. The only regret I have about Rhode's fate is that it was not handed to her by the player. Convictions are a good thing, until one becomes blinded by them when the truth is staring you in the face telling you otherwise.

The other thing that bothered me, although this is nit-picking, is that Rhode was discovered inside the tomb, meanwhile you still had to get the helmet, find the orbs, and use the clues to unlock it. It makes zero sense. Why not just stick Rhode OUTSIDE of the tomb turned to stone, and maybe even have her holding one of the orbs you need (giving Bellegar a reason to stone her in the first place being that she might have unlocked the puzzle by chance...) to open the seal? These kinds of errors in logic or continuity upset me more than killing off a minimal supporting cast. Besides I thought the fate of Derk, Dana, and Folo was comical. Now, had they killed off Kevin, then I might be a little angry! hahaha

Anyway, going back to the OP's original point, I agree, there was very little relationship development between your character and anyone in the game. Zandalor's character in particular seemed to be the most poorly written. It seemed somewhat generic, and I feel he could have had much more interaction in the story line as opposed to being a glorified cheerleader until FoV where he actually seemed to have a useful role. (At least for Aleroth.) Sure, he "gets" (quite anti-climatically) you the shield, but why not add the obtaining as the shield as another section of content or quest?

Lastly, if Talana was actually Ygerna, when did the takeover occur? It would have been nice to have some history on Talana and her relation to Maxos, Lovis, and Zandalor other than being the last Dragon Knight who you happen to stumble upon as she is dying and passes her mission on to you. Perhaps with enough clues that the most prescient gamer could pick-up before the final cutscene of E.D. that it was actually Ygerna all along.

If Talana was a Dragon Knight, surely Ygerna could have used her just as well as the main character to do her bidding? So I am assuming Ygerna didn't expect Rhode to deliver a deathblow to "Talana" and was forced to make due with a Slayer.

I could go on, and I suppose some of this isn't really that relevant, but I thought I would add my two-cents. Overall I found the game to be one of the better RPGs I've played since Oblivion, and the first game in over a year I've purchased and didn't end up uninstalling a week later. (Previously it was the STALKER series that held that title.) The comedy and sarcasm wasn't too cheesy and had a good delivery. I still feel the story could have been a little more rich though, considering the backbone was there. I understand, this is by far the hardest part of a game to get right. With that being said, a great story can carry otherwise mediocre games, so it is worth the trouble.

Again, it was a fun play-through, well worth the money, and I'll probably play the patched version through once as a warrior, rather than a ranger. I hope Divinity III (You have to clear up what happens to Damian, don't you?) improves on an already solid gameplay, and dedicates a little more energy to enriching the history, characters, and plot of an interesting world.

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Originally Posted by Ailurophile
The other thing that bothered me, although this is nit-picking, is that Rhode was discovered inside the tomb, meanwhile you still had to get the helmet, find the orbs, and use the clues to unlock it. It makes zero sense.

Considering Bellegar's involvement, it doesn't need to make sense. grin Though I guess a possible explanation is that he decided to get the potentially dangerous nuisance out of the way: leading or transporting her into a trap where he can do so out of sight is probably expedient. Or maybe as more of a warning to those who make it that far by their own wits...

Originally Posted by Ailurophile
Lastly, if Talana was actually Ygerna, when did the takeover occur? It would have been nice to have some history on Talana and her relation to Maxos, Lovis, and Zandalor other than being the last Dragon Knight who you happen to stumble upon as she is dying and passes her mission on to you. Perhaps with enough clues that the most prescient gamer could pick-up before the final cutscene of E.D. that it was actually Ygerna all along.

If Talana was a Dragon Knight, surely Ygerna could have used her just as well as the main character to do her bidding? So I am assuming Ygerna didn't expect Rhode to deliver a deathblow to "Talana" and was forced to make due with a Slayer.

I guess it's possible that both Talana and the player character were just the latest in a long line to be duped by Ygerna. It's a dangerous mission with a lot of casualties; though the story does indicate that the player may be in a unique position due to the uncompleted ritual, so perhaps Talana's nearly-expired state left her sufficiently weakened for an opportunistic Ygerna to step in at just the right moment.

Originally Posted by Ailurophile
I could go on, and I suppose some of this isn't really that relevant, but I thought I would add my two-cents. Overall I found the game to be one of the better RPGs I've played since Oblivion, and the first game in over a year I've purchased and didn't end up uninstalling a week later. (Previously it was the STALKER series that held that title.) The comedy and sarcasm wasn't too cheesy and had a good delivery. I still feel the story could have been a little more rich though, considering the backbone was there. I understand, this is by far the hardest part of a game to get right. With that being said, a great story can carry otherwise mediocre games, so it is worth the trouble.

Again, it was a fun play-through, well worth the money, and I'll probably play the patched version through once as a warrior, rather than a ranger. I hope Divinity III (You have to clear up what happens to Damian, don't you?) improves on an already solid gameplay, and dedicates a little more energy to enriching the history, characters, and plot of an interesting world.

I suppose "me too" sounds a little lame in spite of being in broad agreement, so I'll tack on my recent request of "no more escort quests, please". grin


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Originally Posted by Ailurophile

Anyway, going back to the OP's original point, I agree, there was very little relationship development between your character and anyone in the game. Zandalor's character in particular seemed to be the most poorly written. It seemed somewhat generic, and I feel he could have had much more interaction in the story line as opposed to being a glorified cheerleader until FoV where he actually seemed to have a useful role. (At least for Aleroth.) Sure, he "gets" (quite anti-climatically) you the shield, but why not add the obtaining as the shield as another section of content or quest?


They probably didn't have time to add in you fetching the shield yourself. I actually liked the idea that you didn't have to do everything yourself.

Quote
Lastly, if Talana was actually Ygerna, when did the takeover occur? It would have been nice to have some history on Talana and her relation to Maxos, Lovis, and Zandalor other than being the last Dragon Knight who you happen to stumble upon as she is dying and passes her mission on to you. Perhaps with enough clues that the most prescient gamer could pick-up before the final cutscene of E.D. that it was actually Ygerna all along.


The takeover happened after you saw the cutscene of the Dragon fighting Damian's dragon and getting shot down, and before you woke up with Zandalor greeting you.

Quote
If Talana was a Dragon Knight, surely Ygerna could have used her just as well as the main character to do her bidding? So I am assuming Ygerna didn't expect Rhode to deliver a deathblow to "Talana" and was forced to make due with a Slayer.


No, because Talana had a strong mind. Remember the warnings of Organa and Rhode - The dragon memory ritual left the slayer's mind weak and vulnerable, that's why s/he had to stay behind and not particpiate in the hunt for Talana in the first place.


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Originally Posted by Stabbey


The takeover happened after you saw the cutscene of the Dragon fighting Damian's dragon and getting shot down, and before you woke up with Zandalor greeting you.


I disagree. At the end of that scene Damian stomps on the head of the Dragon, presumably delivering the final blow. If it was the case that Damian was there when Ygerna infiltrated the Slayer's mind, he would have not been so surprised at the end asking her how she managed to free herself, when he was trying to accomplish just that.

Unless you are saying that after Damian defeated Talana, Ygerna took the opportunity to jump in and pretend Talana didn't actually die during the dream, and had now taken residency in the Slayer's head. However, that is in no way implied by the cutscene which Damian refers to as a vivid dream. So I don't see how you are drawing that conclusion given the information. It seems just as much speculation as saying Ygerna was Talana from the get-go.


Quote
No, because Talana had a strong mind. Remember the warnings of Organa and Rhode - The dragon memory ritual left the slayer's mind weak and vulnerable, that's why s/he had to stay behind and not particpiate in the hunt for Talana in the first place.


Again, this is assuming Ygerna never actually overtook Talana's mind as a Dragon Knight, and only pretended to be Talana guiding you,(from the cutscene forward) which is not implied from the cutscene or any other surrounding events.

This explanation does not suffice for me, but maybe I am missing something.

Last edited by Ailurophile; 13/12/10 04:42 PM.
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