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#472413 10/08/13 06:53 PM
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We get it Larian

Gay is ok!!!! we GET IT! yes your liberal! yes !!! WE GET IT

Goddamnit

I saw this game on steam and bought it for Dragons and Jetpacks and RTS gaming.

The RTS part is bland, and I almost never use my dragonform since its neither completely overpowered or just makes controlling units harder.

I could tolerate this because I love the "spaceship" and the RPG part but really... for the love of everything

I don't need this constant liberal,gay,feminist awareness crap up my bum every goddamn turn!

The last 10 turns I played in chapter 2 is about homosexual issues and am bullshit tired of this poorly veiled awareness crap!

DRAGONS WITH JETPACKS!
NOT LGBT Rights with hints about a dragon rts minigame!

Make the game like this if you want but advertise it clearly

"40% gay,liberal,feminist awareness, might contain traces of dragons and rts gameplay"

In real life I might agree with you, but when I buy dragon commander I want dragon commander not "The L Word"

stick your preachy game where the sun don't shine, and if your think your fooling anyone....

This game has about as much "hidden" agenda as Left Behind: Eternal Forces

Blacksun #472418 10/08/13 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Blacksun
The last 10 turns I played in chapter 2 is about homosexual issues and am bullshit tired of this poorly veiled awareness crap!

I don't think the chapter matters. I've been sitting on the first map maxing out research and collecting cards while keeping the enemy capital surrounded. The issues keep advancing even if the story hasn't.

In general the game doesn't approach the issue with any subtlety. The views of the characters on this are easily refuted, yet the dialog options are limited to either submitting to the whims of your subordinate or professing some unreasonable bias.

As someone that was intrigued by the debates I find the representation in the game to be a mockery of the arguments on either side of the discussion.

Definitely an example of what not to do when injecting a serious issue into a game.


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I really doubt it's 10 turns. I'm pretty sure it's 4 or 5 turns at most, because there should only b3 4 or 5 decisions about that in the entire game. If you got them all at once, I can imagine it being grating, but there should probably not be any more for the rest of the game.

Larian, this is probably just a vocal minority. If most people hated it, there'd be a lot more responses here and elsewhere.

Stabbey #472435 10/08/13 08:53 PM
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I constantly get molested with conservative crap about conscription, taxes, and religion. I get yelled at for making perfectly logical and moral liberal decisions! And us liberals are denounced as crazy imps and ear picking elves. Larian, I protest your thinly veiled conservative agenda!

wink


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There actually is more "noise" elsewhere, and many people feel like I do.. before you go jabbing and waving things off as a "vocal minority"

and "GhanBuriGhan"

IF you really thing this game is not bias towards certain opinions, then I suggest getting your head examined, or for runs sake review the arguments in the game.. am sure the undead fraction and the dwarfs where made with pure intentions that's for sure


Blacksun #472448 10/08/13 09:50 PM
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If you go to the game with a set mind of right/wrong/good/evil, then some characters might come off as obviously evil, or otherwise flawed.

I for one, go into the game with my real life attitudes about money and religion, and therefore I find the undead to be utter jerks, and the dwarves to be narrow-minded money-grubbing idiots without a clue about living.

You can ditch that. Maybe. You can try to cast yourself as an emperor who cares more for the value of money, for what they can buy, and less for rights and liberties of common people. Perhaps an emperor that sees the value of slavery.

I think what I'm saying is: If you were one to think that healthcare is a waste of money already, you wouldn't fault the dwarf for saying so in the game. Thus I wouldn't assume the silly, selfish, perspective-impaired dwarves to be an entirely malicious representation of capitalism, as much as I'd take them to be Larian's best effort to represent capitalism (as they understand it) in this game.

Just about all the characters have one thing to be extremely single-minded about. I guess it was done to represent various opinions clearly with a reasonably small cast.


There might be some political/social statement going from Larian, as well, of course. I do feel it. But the fact that I detect only my own opinions (ahah, they're making fun of the people who disagree with me, while having a couple of people who share my view) makes me think that it doesn't really matter. The people I disagree with are ridiculous to me. Their reasoning strikes me as absurd. Portraying them in the game therefore appears to be a mockery of them, regardless of whether or not it is.

Sinister #472454 10/08/13 10:19 PM
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The reason you find the undead and the dwarfs stupid\funny\narrow-minded are clear

1. Your attitude is what larian figured their main playerbase would be
2. The undead and Dwarfs where made for that exact reason

The Arguments in the game are preset to fit into the main playerbases terms of good and evil.

To make a argument clear.

You might in real life say yes to gay marriage
but would you force religious institution to do it?

You might be against conscription in real life
but would you be against conscription if you knew that Hilter2 was on the other side of the war, and that it was a ditch or die effort world war 3

But cases aren't presented this way and here comes the reason

This game is made for you, and whatever your choices are you will hear real life stories about the consequences. And its educational and awareness raising and all will point to one "clear" good choice.

You say no to gun control , newspaper says father shoots son, though he was a burglar.
Think that's a joke to Larian ? I don't

What I feel about gun control? who knows... Am Norwegian.. but I do know what larian thinks about it ...








Last edited by Blacksun; 10/08/13 10:19 PM.
Blacksun #472459 10/08/13 11:43 PM
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I haven't seen all that many of the questions one faces, so your opinion is probably a bit better informed than mine, and I'm sure several of the decisions show rather clearly the difference between good and evil/ruthless.

Is the gun-control example from the game?
(Let's review the gun-control thing for a moment...)
Or let me, anyway.

* USA gun-control issue is widely known.
* There are known cases of people being killed with legally owned weapons by accident/due to misunderstanding.
* Assumption: Among the people who consider it everybody's right to bear arms, there are some who know and understand that (people with) legally owned weapons have killed by accident or with incorrect/unacceptable reason.

This indicates that there are people who could see the head-line you refer to, dismiss it as an unfortunate reality, and maintain that this killer dad was a nincompoop whose incompetence should not adversely affect other people's right to bear arms. He might even complain that the media never print stories on guns that saved lives (or money, or cars, or time).

People who see those headlines without thinking that gun-control is important in real life, could see that headline in the game and think it an accurate portrayal of the anti-gun-bias in modern newspapers. Because that's how their opinion would colour it.

Having said that, I think it is a bit extreme. It works in principle, it works in some cases, but I'm not sure it really works with gun-control.

The point is that even though Larian shows very clearly the negative effect of your decision, there are people who consider this negative effect acceptable. It is not given that Larian's bias towards gun-control would appear as such to them.

I myself am in favour of many liberties, and the right to bear arms is certainly not one of them, and I think you and Larian generally hold similar opinions. If Larian were strict religious conservative capitalist deathpeddlers who thought the media were being unreasonably concerned with the loss of a few children, they'd probably portray the newspaper as more of a subversive propaganda-pamphlet. They do portray a very silly sensationalist newspaper, though. There's not much newsvalue in a paper that prints rumour on the front page more often than not.

Did the game give any benefits from not instituting gun control? There's only one I consider realistic: The industry thanks you for not shutting them down. (Those that manufacture weapons for private use.)

Were there any expected negative effects from instituting gun-control? (Corporations turning against you, ongoing expenses to deal with bad business.)[spoiler=Reality-related]I don't think personal guns provide real security. I don't believe that your ability to kill people who might kill you reduces your likelihood of dying. Especially not since anybody could be armed and dangerous, and anybody armed and dangerous might kill anybody (else) that might be armed and dangerous. (My tentative conclusion: Guns for everybody increases general likelihood of death without significantly reducing anybody's risk of dying.)
[/spoiler]There's one more reason why Larian's game appears so fiercely biased: The newspaper prints stories directly related to the last decision, not showing anything of what goes on aside from your decisions. Thus, it would seem that the no-gun-control-son was the only one to die outside of battle since the dragon was declared emperor. That comes off as tremendously biased, and it might be, but it is also a natural consequence of the simple news-mechanics.

To support more advanced treatment of these subjects, though, Larian would require somewhat more advanced political game mechanics, or a lot more writing and acting. The matter of marriage, love, cohabitation, intimacy and more is demonstrably many-faceted and a real discussion could have a lot of outcomes even among people who agree on most points. But I suppose a three-way split on policies could have sufficed: Force new principle upon the church / declare marriage separate from choice of mate and lifestyle and let the church do as it will (forbid even the undead from persecuting or discriminating against homosexuals?) / let the undead have their own rules / maintain strict bans on homosexuality all around. 5 options? I thought I meant 3. I think it goes beyond the scope of Dragon Commander, but I also think it could be an improvement.

I'm not arguing that Larian isn't biased (towards rather sensible views I think), but I'm suggesting that it makes limited difference. There's not one councillor who isn't firmly rooted in a narrow and inadequate understanding of right and wrong <or at least utterly stuck with their (lizards, imps) archetype>. Love for liberty might make me agree with elves, but their councillor is as incapable of exploring issues as any other (no dialogue written beyond saying their piece and then complaining about your decision).

It is different when I look beyond the council room. Edmund's racism is completely unsupportable. I suppose a racist might have portrayed the racists in their game a bit differently.

Blacksun #472460 11/08/13 12:00 AM
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I can aggree with the thread maker on one point. For dragon commander, we see the dragon way too rarely. Also the raven phase feels like the main part of the game, which makes this game feel more like a political simulator, rather than an rts with 4x elements. What i've already voiced in my other thread first impressions no.2. They spent too much time on the raven phase, playing around with mocap suits, and not enough time on the other parts of the game. On the other hand, this game was just released, give it some time so that they can polish it into the game that was advertised. No games are perfect on release.

Last edited by Zolee; 11/08/13 12:04 AM.
Zolee #472484 11/08/13 03:47 AM
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Correction on my earlier post: Having hit turn 23 while still in chapter 1 it appears there are no more issues to address until I move on.

Turn 4
Henry's Arc and institute conscription

Turn 5
Edmund's Arc

Turn 6
Healthcare

Turn 7
Catherine's Arc

Turn 8
Deport foreign criminals

Turn 9
Scarlett's Arc

Turn 10
Tax the church

Turn 11
Henry's Arc

Turn 12 - results from Turn 11

Turn 13
Legalize drudanae

Turn 14
Edmund's Arc

Turn 15
Tabloid

Turn 16
Henry's Arc

Turn 17
Euthenasia

Turn 18
Scarlett's Arc

Turn 19 - results from Turn 18

Turn 20
Limit Imp family size

Turn 21
Edmund's Arc

Turn 22
New roads


Zolee #472489 11/08/13 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Zolee
rather than an rts with 4x elements


Who says that's what Dragon Commander has to be, though? It's a dragon-emperor simulator, not just a 4X/RTS. grin

Not saying that the RTS and Risk modes couldn't use some work to make them as fun as the politics, but I don't think the game was intended to be an RTS with 4X elements or Civilization with RTS elements, or whatever [main genre] with [side genre] elements combinations you want to use to describe it.

Kotep #472499 11/08/13 07:44 AM
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The headline on the other side of allowing people kill intruders is

"Self Defence is now murder, Criminals toast new law."

In order to avoid this sort of controversy it seems like Dragon Commander tries to be fairly balanced and portray all positions in a ludicrous manner.

I'm going to try and stay out of this because I know how controvertial politics can be at the best of times. Still I feel compelled to try and argue that right wing views are often easier to parody. The elf councillor is no more serious a portrayal than the dwarf one but it's harder to make a hippy idealist look as bad as a heartless capitalist.

Rack #472508 11/08/13 10:02 AM
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The Rivelon times is a sensationalist dwarven publication. Regardless of most, if not all, decisions that you make, the paper will have something negative to say about it. It's NOT Larian's view on the matter.

Now, if only people were as concerned and involved with real world issues as they are with a game that can just emulate reality in its own way, with its own adjustments, but in the end is just a work of fiction.

I believe some would invoke the joke of "first world issues".


Unless otherwise specified, just an opinion or simple curiosity.
EinTroll #472531 11/08/13 01:26 PM
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Rack

You are right ofcourse.. but that is why am trying to tell you

Right wings are easier to parody for the audience Larian is presenting it too

"Self Defence is now murder, Criminals toast new law."
vs
"father shoots son dead, though he was the burglar"

You know why this is not a balanced?

This is why

http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Man-...st-Harris-County-backyard-212058291.html

These things would already have effected those that would select the choice and if they would have been 100% bias as you said they would have used the argument against with the same real life retort.

A burglar killing a family when he was discovered in their apartment.

Now I personaly agree with gun control..... and I don't belive you have the right to kill anyone you find inside your home

But I don't like getting these thinly veiled opinions put into my ass each time I try to start a game.

Becouse I can make my own mind and I don't need Larian Studio to educate me....


Kotep #472532 11/08/13 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Kotep
Originally Posted by Zolee
rather than an rts with 4x elements


Who says that's what Dragon Commander has to be, though? It's a dragon-emperor simulator, not just a 4X/RTS. grin

Not saying that the RTS and Risk modes couldn't use some work to make them as fun as the politics, but I don't think the game was intended to be an RTS with 4X elements or Civilization with RTS elements, or whatever [main genre] with [side genre] elements combinations you want to use to describe it.


Doesn't change the fact that the strategy phase and the battle phase is rather underdeveloped.

Blacksun #472541 11/08/13 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Blacksun
Rack

You are right ofcourse.. but that is why am trying to tell you

Right wings are easier to parody for the audience Larian is presenting it too

"Self Defence is now murder, Criminals toast new law."
vs
"father shoots son dead, though he was the burglar"

You know why this is not a balanced?

This is why

http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Man-...st-Harris-County-backyard-212058291.html

These things would already have effected those that would select the choice and if they would have been 100% bias as you said they would have used the argument against with the same real life retort.

A burglar killing a family when he was discovered in their apartment.

Now I personaly agree with gun control..... and I don't belive you have the right to kill anyone you find inside your home

But I don't like getting these thinly veiled opinions put into my ass each time I try to start a game.

Becouse I can make my own mind and I don't need Larian Studio to educate me....



Yeah, all of a sudden that headline is no longer funny. Maybe it's a coincidence but if it's intentional that's not in any way balanced. One is a joke, the other a reference to a tragedy.

Rack #472546 11/08/13 03:12 PM
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You really thing that's a coincidence smile ?

This is exactly my point and likewise all the other choices have similar "effects" if you choose the wrong ie "what the devs\mainstream consider wrong"

Try it yourself. you and me are obviously adult people that can think for ourselves but do we really need some games to "hammer" politicaly correct opinions into our head at every turn

Disagree with the politics or not.. in Dragon Commander.. I feel its to heavy handed, to much, and to bias... even if I agree 100%"and I most likely do" with everything the devs "want" me to think

I feel like a tool

Last edited by Blacksun; 11/08/13 03:12 PM.
Blacksun #472551 11/08/13 03:26 PM
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I would like to not have to quote myself, but let me rephrase myself:

This is a fairly heated argument over a work of fiction that is not a piece of propaganda. In other words, an argument over nothing consistent.

We're talking about an emulation of parts of reality, very similar, but fundamentally different. If you feel offended, hurt, affected by the things put in the game and the way the fictional viewpoints are handled, that is your problem. It's you that needs to take a step back and draw the lines between reality and fiction, particularly between the weight of issues part of reality and "issues" with (should have) no weight whatsoever on reality.

Now would the conspiracy theorists please pick up a new hobby?


To be fair, I await to be proven wrong. With good arguments.


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EinTroll #472566 11/08/13 04:21 PM
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Your wrong Eintroll but the wording you use seem to make it hard to prove it too you, because you seem oblivious...

The Devs themselves says this was real life politics inserted with real life arguments with a satirical twist.

And you claim this is a pure fiction and that everything is equally presented and equally fiction.

Tell me the Fact from fiction part then in the case above.




Last edited by Blacksun; 11/08/13 04:22 PM.
Blacksun #472574 11/08/13 04:31 PM
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I don't think that the "Father confuses son for burglar" headline in game was supposed to be funny. Of course, that in itself is an oddity compared to most other headlines.

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