Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta High heels? *Stiletto* high heels? Really?

YoungFreshNewbie
Larian is not forced to obey every your wish or demand. The fact that you backed the game, if you are even a backer (judging by your registration date), means only the fact that YOU backed the game LARIAN wants to make. Sure they are open for feedback and input, but nowhere in the pitch of the Kickstarter they said they will be making the game YOU demand. You perfectly knew the conditions from very beginning: developers has a game and its idea/concept in works, they need money. If you like THEIR idea then you can support them so they can finish THEIR idea that you LIKED and decide to support. Not YOURS idea(s) that you dictate with your nitpicking and "dot-point" preferences.

If you weren't sure you will like the game then... you shouldn't have backed it in a first place? Or, you know, you should have read Kickstarter rules and TOS - backing the project does not mean you PURCHASE something. You invest. And every investment has it's risks. You don't like how your investment turned out? Well, too bad, but you knew the rules. Or don't - it is not Larian's fault.

If developer will start to change the game by every demand of unsatisfied "kickstarter customer" there will be no coherent game at all.

You don't like the current game Larian made so far? Well, I don't like what are you trying to do with it with your whiny demands. As long as there will be such ridiculous demands - there will be opposing force. Deal with it. You are not the only one and your opinion is no more valuable than someone's else.

You clearly didn't get the point. Let me help you. I was telling you not to shut people down for giving feedback because we have an investment in the game, and we have the access to an alpha which they clearly have been receptive to according to their kickstarter videos, changing things suggested by people like me.

I'm not -demanding- they do anything. I'm giving them feedback suggesting an option I'd like in the game for the enjoyment of myself and many like me. I'm not being unreasonable. I'm not shouting "OMG SEXISM MUST CHANGE". It's a simple aesthetic immersion-breaking issue I have with the heels. You're just being a jerk to anyone who finds something important that you don't care about, and painting yourself as a champion for it and painting us as idiots.

Your post in general just reeks of self-righteous, ego-stroking, "I didn't read but I'll pretend I did" crap. I don't even know why I bothered to respond. I guess just to be sure I closed all hope of you pretending you're being reasonable and accurate.

The interesting thing is that you're the one posting hysterical and overtly hostile paragraphs about a subject that, to you, is a "dot-point preference." If this is so meaningless a change, then why is it a "ridiculous demand?" Why does it deserve 5 pages of white noise posts from you? Have you considered even for a moment that you're overreacting like a child?

There are literally hundreds of games where you, the white male consumer, can enjoy unnecessarily sexualized female characters to your heart's content. Why is it such a problem for us to ask for one game where a female protagonist doesn't default to high heels and gratuitous anatomy?

YoungFreshNewbie


Again, read the Kickstarter TOS - you "don't have" investment into the project, you invested into it but you are not shareholder. You simply donated your money to the project because you found it interesting/worthy.

"We have". Really now.


There is a difference between "giving feedback" and categorically stating that something is not acceptable because you don't like developers vision/take on it and you "paid money for it" (jesus). Did you read whole thread before participate? I highly suggest to start from page 1. Also, please consult old thread regarding "female armor" as well.



Right, and this is not your words:

"Larian's game exists in this form because of popular investment into it through kickstarter and now early access. If they did not wish to answer for things like this in the development process, they should not have opened it up for us to invest in it and give feedback."

Speaking of being self-righteous.

And no, the game would exist anyway (may be in different way and form via different approach) even without Kickstarter, you did knew it if you'd follow its development process and Larian long before. KS was just the best option they decide to go for.


Gutta Mane

I would ask in return "Have you ever?' but the he whole existence of this thread pretty much answers this question. It exist only because some people for some unknown to me reason picked up on an incredible insignificant aspect of the game (amongst many more serious issues) and decided to make it a big problem because of their personal preferences.

Surprise. I have preferences too. And many people besides me. But we don't make a thread for each, stating our preferences to the developer in a demanding way and saying it is unacceptable that it exist in such state. I wonder why? May be because we are grown up adult and do not overreact over a simple matter of game aesthetics and design? Because instead of demanding to "understand us" - we ourselves understand?

*cough* Thank you for entertaining me.

Okay Kein, we get it, you feel the need to defend the developer on the forum they made so people can discuss bugs and qualities of the game they don't particularly like, cosmetic or otherwise. I'm sure your super busy sorting feedback into feedback that personally offends you and feedback that suits your fine tastes. Clearly, this is no place to have opinions that The Kein does not agree with. I mean, super serious topics like these, the discussion of fake high heels, most certainly deserve essays and essays of barely veiled insults and poorly worded cries of self-superiority, and those take so much time out of your surely busy life. Therefor, we will refrain from ever positing an opinion or thinking critically about how video games and other forms of digital art portray their subjects, instead worshipping their creators for giving us the chance to give them our money in exchange for their product. Thank you, and good day.

How charming. I am an idiot because I don't care what you argue about and I am just expressing my opinion on the silliness. Stop look back and think. Have I once said "YOU CAN NOT HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS" no. I, like you, am expressing my opinion. If that makes me an idiot, then you are just as guilty.

Maybe you should reread the entire post and think about it. My post was about people telling other people what they are allowed to give as feedback, what they are allowed to play and about attacking persons for having an opinion. I didn't refer to you directly. So now tell me what should I think of you as you feel addressed by this? And the worst thing is: instead of giving opinions and ideas to the developer to decide upon we are fighting here with personal attacks because of people so full of themselves. I for myself am done with it. GFUS

Wow I am so sorry.I did jump the gun. I thought I was replying to the person that tried calling me out on my statement of "It's silly..." My apologies.

Hi all,

Could we perhaps try to be friendly or at least be respectful to one another? Our forums have for the most part always been places where you could voice an opinion and expect a reasonable reply back, and we'd like to keep it that way. I know this is a sensitive topic for some but there's no reason to debate it via personal attacks.

On the subject matter itself, opinions @Larian are mixed but there's been talk about changing it, though I think that was well before this thread popped up. It's not that high on the priority list however, and it apparently is more work to change than one would expect because it affects the skeleton that's being used in the animations. If I remember correctly (I'm sure one of the artists reading this thread will correct me if I'm wrong) the decision was that we'd eventually turn the heels into boots. When we had the talk about changing it, it was because indeed the feeling was that it didn't fit that well. That it didn't happen yet has more to do with our workload than anything else.

Thanks for the reply Lar_q. Glad to see that you are reading even the longer threads like this one. I apologize, too, for my share of the combativeness in this thread.

Does this mean there would be no option. or would players be able to get high heel versions. Too me being able to dress up my character is a big part of my Roleplaying. I am in 3.5 and pathfinder games and my Monk/sorceress has a different fancy gown and pair of heels for everyday of the week. Her acrobatics and athletics are high so the GM basically says. "Yeah if you can run down walls then heels are no problem""

This is one of her outfits. so as you can see they aren't stilettos
http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b505/argol2281/Melena2state1_zpsaed10167.png

Hello World! First post here, kickstarted the game during the last days of KS campaign..


While I must say that the game is absolutely beautiful, and plays like a dream (almost), I do have to agree with some users that the high heels just don't make any sense, nor do some of the armours.

But! Before you go hating on me, allow me to make one thing clear; Talking about aesthetics is a -very- touchy subject. People have very different opinions and want different things, especially when it comes to fantasy. Having said that, I believe it is best if I do not give too harsh critique on other's opinions, but instead merely voice my own.


As an active roleplayer (Yeah, I too play Pathfinder) and a fan of dark fantasy (especially lower magic and what not), I must say that I prefer almost everything to be pretty much "down to earth".

As I said, I will not go into different styles or aesthetics in great detail, but here are some examples what I would like to give praise to:

First of all, the author, whoever this Lockwood is, did an amazing job when drawing this for D&D. I mean, it's the best fantasy mail what I've ever seen. Sure, her chest is somewhat pronounced, perhaps a bit too much, but I still find the whole design of armour beautiful, elegant and even effective.
Elven Chain - D&D - Lockwood

Second. Real life, sure, modern blacksmithing, but still. Jeff Wasson deserves more praise than I can give.
http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=15thcent
So, to put it bluntly; While I enjoy my fantasy, I also enjoy realism and full-body outfits and armors tickle my fancy, especially if we speak of a fantasy setting what takes it's aesthetic inspiration from medieval europe.
Front
Back
Point of those above was to demonstrate that the common "boob plate" is far from necessary. Again, I understand the concept of having it, I can even admit that it can be somewhat pleasing if done well (subtly.)
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you

Nicolai Arbo - Hervor's death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peter_Nicolai_Arbo-Hervors_d%C3%B8d.jpg

I understand and I respect different tastes. I can even see why some people prefer armors what are shown in.. well, I don't know if it's rude of me to just say it like that, but in animes and so on. I completely understand why someone would go for armors what exist in games like Tera and japanese fantasy, but those are not what I would expect from a game like Divinity: OS.


I thank you all for having a chance to voice my opinion. If we would talk about different video games what to give praise (in terms of their aesthetics, concerning armor design), I would certainly name Mount&Blade, Neverwinter Nights 2 and DDO as the first three.

Sadly, I never got into talking about boots in my post. Wonder if this went into a wrong thread - Anyway, lets put my opinion on that into a short summary;
Flat. Flat is the way to go. High-heels, especially as they are now, only serve to kill the immersion for me. First I laughed at them, now I just think that they should be normal boots.
But - Someone already said that they have been under discussion even at Larian, so, no need for me to go into that topic.

Ps. Quoting Emily Asher-Perrin
"So if you want to wear some sculpted armor to the Ren Faire because you feel fabulous-looking in it, go forth and have fun! But if you’re drawing lady soldiers, or creating female characters who are depicted as actual warriors, please err on the side of reality when designing their armor. Science says your boob plates are killing the women you hoped they would protect. And none of us want that."

But, after all, this is all entertainment, and the user "sodap" kind of put the nail on the coffin;
"when you design a character for an audiovisual product, if historical accuracy isnt the main focus of the movie, videogame, or whatever, the main concern is coolness. It has to look cool, and in the case of female characters it has to look sexy in 99% of the cases, as both men AND WOMEN prefer sexy female characters."

Well, what a surprise, loud minority with their whining won again. Because using "sexism" as an argument is a winning course nowadays.



Yes, because character dragging with himself 10 swords makes sense too. Or talking to seashells. Or wearing the same outfit be it tropical seashore or -40C north territories. Or ability to exchange items being kilometers away.

Isn't it nice to be selective to game aspects when it comes personal preferences? Suddenly, some other things that "make no sense" or "unrealistic" hold less value than others! Guess what? There is a shittons of other things that unrealistic in the game. "But it is a game, magic!"

Yeah, exactly. It is.

Did you miss the part where Lar said "I think that was well before this thread popped up"?

Did anybody at all use sexism as an argument to change the shoes?

If this is such an insignificant thing that people shouldn't even voice an opinion about it, why are you so out of sorts that it might be changed?



Personal preferences are inherently selective. That's why they are called personal.

Certain things do break immersion more than others. There were quite a few people over the years that complained about the lack of fall damage in Divinity 2, yet nobody ever complained about giant rocks floating in the sky with fortresses built on top of them. Not Once. The flying fortresses fit into the gameworld. The lack of fall damage equally fit into the gameworld, given the existence of magic and the nature of the dragon slayers, but the actual fall mechanic was close enough to real life that some people had trouble with the suspension of disbelief when it didn't behave as expected.

Carrying tons of loot and doing magic fits into the gameworld. There is nothing about the gameworld that makes high heels practical for adventuring. Seeing someone run around in high heels on sand and cobblestones can easily trigger a 'that is just silly' reaction, rather than 'that is part of the game'.

No, I did not. But if this thread and all the complaints about "female armor" never was raised may be we would receive an old good RPG with old-good aesthetics. Like Divine Divinity or Divintiy 2 ("OH GOD, SPIKED ARMOR, what a disaster, I want a refund!") or Icewind Dale/Baldur's Gate.

But apparently:

You didn't even read the thread. I suggest you to do so, start with page 1. Thank you.


Umm...
Because loud minority decided to voice VERY LOUDLY their personal preferences about this thing, in the very same thread? You clearly didn't read the thread.



Thanks for explaining me the obvious, I really appreciate it. In exchange I could explain to you how bread baking process works. It would be as much valuable as yours.

The point is that personal preferences and loud whining about aesthetics of the game is not a reason to change the game and/or its aspects to suit some self-important person who knows how to exploit some popular "trends" to get what he wants.

Do you see me complaining about every thing in the game I don't like? I could, but it isn ot my game. I was once disappointed about the choice of tactical combat but in the end it is NOT MY GAME (and besides, it was a part of the gameplay, not visuals/aesthetics).

And more importantly - I LIKE these high heels. I don't want them to be changed, I want my female character look like a female, in or without armor. I don't want to see normalized character template that all blend together and look like blobs of similarly styled outfit.


So why their opinion matters more? Because some of them [pretend to] be woman and rise voice of concern about how "they" being portrayed in the game? Using sexualization and realistic approach as a support base for their "arguments"?

Well, here is my whining - I DON'T WANT these changes. Why are they being made? Oh, right, I can't appeal to sexism or unrealistic crap. Because I'm a male and I'm too sane and reasonable to demand from fantasy RPG accurately-historical approach, especially when I love and enjoy unique and appealing made-up aesthetics. And I don't care if it is a female character in RPG game, walking in high-heels on the beach, or female character in animated movie, running in high-heels on the staircase made of ice and even skipping 1-2 steps.

I read it, don't recall anyone saying high heels were sexist, and don't care to read it again. You are the one claiming sexism was used as an argument.



The point was, you can not argue that something is extremely unimportant so other people should stop bringing it up, but also so important that it can not be changed.



If it was so obvious your logic was faulty, why did you make that argument? (rhetorical question)



So then all the stuff about it just being a game and not to post about petty aesthetics is only for people who want the option to change the footwear. You, on the other hand, can argue for your position on that very same topic... because that wouldn't make you just like a self-important person that would post a different opinion than you have.



People expressed a desire to change the footwear; nobody started a campaign to ban high heels from the game.

I don't know what is going to happen since it doesn't sound like an easy thing to change, but I hope you keep the option to have female characters wear high heels. If I have the option, I will certainly change it to something that wouldn't look so silly. With the camera zoomed out, footwear doesn't stand out a lot of the time on an inch high avatar, so it wouldn't be the end of the world either way.

Feel free to move on then, I see no point arguing with someone for the sake of arguing (read: trolling; as much as entertaining it is) without any relation to the subj.

I do recall one or two people posting about how they thought the high heels were sexist.

The good news for you, Kein, is that your preference of high heels is already in. It will cost Larian nothing to keep it in. The people who don't like it might be the ones who end up out of luck.

But tell me something: will you be upset if you can keep your high heels, AND there's an option to change them to boots for those who think it looks silly?

man i have not even noticed this issue. but i just say this i don't think that Larian studios should have stress over something like this. please keep focus on the things that matters this is not one of them. and i really doubt its that many people that would get offended by it, internet noise can sometimes be a bit demanding... i wonder how the Obsidion will make the female armors in there Project Eternity.. are they also going to obey to sexisme demands?? : / sigh.