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Originally Posted by dwelfusius
... steam forums...


Yeah, that'll do it lol ;-)


"Love one another and you will be happy. It's as simple and as difficult as that" - Leunig
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I don't think a lot of people are calling for the full removal of sexy armors. From what I've read, it's mostly a question of it being forced on women alone, and how impractical it is to do that anyway.

Personally, I'd feel better about it if I could have the option of decking out Roderick in a mankini, and he had similar clothing options. If he could have his armor of Ball Protection and prance around Scarlett, then I don't mind if she has her Breast Plate from Victoria's Secret and can prance around him too (the shop's probably somewhere in the library in Cyseal.) As long as it's not forced on my female character, and the male character has the same options, things seem okay to me.

The trouble is you generally don't see that. I bet some people might not even know what I mean by "mankini," and just picture a thong. (If so, Google images is your friend. It's a design popularized by an exotic model called Borat. Since it's so exotic, it may be NSFW.)

Last edited by teakey; 06/02/14 05:51 PM.
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Sorry, but naked skin and sexyness are not the same as aesthetic. Look at this blog. Most of those are aesthetic and even feminine. I'd just like to have something like that as an option, please.

And there is nothing, NOTHING aesthetic about a mankini, teakey. *shudders*

@Argol228: D'you know what these shoulder spikes do? Direct a blow right on to the unprotected shoulder. Newbie's absolutely right: If you're going to say "magicdunnit", why even bother with heavy armour?

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@Unwerth: Sexiness = lusty, aesthetic = beauty. Both are subjective, too. Isn't the world a beautiful place? wink

As for the stuff on the blog, yes, much of that'd be nice. I agree with you. But you said the key word: it's feminine. It's pretty. My expectations for getting that are low, because I'm a cynic.

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@teakey: I agree with you on principle, but not on mankinis. They are objectively horrifying. :p

I think I should elaborate on my position thusly: I hope that the same piece of armour looks as similar as possible no matter what character wears it - size adjustments need to be done, of course and changes in details I don't mind. I just really, really hope that there won't be stuff like that armour set from WoW someone posted in the other thread - the one with the fully armoured guy and the woman in barely any armour at all.

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I think we can have faith in the good sense Larian has shown in the past with regards to moderation in their draws toward sex appeal and practicality. I'm pretty sure there will be a good place for both and it won't smack you in the face with it.

In another thread they stated they desired to remove the heels for regular boots. I believe it was a thread like "something something stiletto heels?!" You probably know which one I'm on about.

I've been very pleased with Larian's video updates and their paying attention to our requests, and I really think we'll see something great aesthetically here too.

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In honesty, I can see why some people might complain about the impractical armor. But I'm a guy (so I'm biased I guess) and I really like the aesthetically cool armor. And for me I like to see the girls in the skimpy armor. Of course there is a threshold where it goes from cool to ridiculous but I guess my threshold is different from others.

I was however a little agitated when they changed the armor of the main female on the cover of the site. I feel like her armor was still quite tasteful and appealing to the eye no matter how unrealistic you can scream it was. And I die inside a bit every time I see developers change the look of their game and art to appease people. Art direction in a game, or any form of entertainment media is very important to the overall feel of the game. And them caving in and changing the look of their female lead's armor just feels like they either didn't have the balls to stick to their original design, or lacked the confidence in their own work/vision of the game to hold true to it.

With that said, I'm perfectly accepting of choices for looks of the PC's. If I can unlock visual looks for my characters, then everyone wins I suppose. Assuming a large variety of looks are available and they haven't just outright removed the aesthetic armor.

I'm just a firm believer that in fantasy and sci-fi style should be a little up front and important over realism. I'm reading and partaking in fantasy and sci-fi because I don't want realism.

Last edited by Elrodeus; 06/02/14 11:05 PM.
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I would be very careful with that argument because any aesthetic position appeases one group and displeases another. If you had a different taste and this change fit it better, you would likely not be complaining, but instead appreciating it.

Taste and appeal cannot be justified rationally, and as such I don't see how you can possibly take a position of chastisement for their decisions. They aren't the kind of company to just watch their vision burn. The game still feels very much like their aesthetic style (to me, at the very least) when I think back to previous Divinity games.

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I'm a girl too, and after all I think is pretty good all this noise about heels and armours. It means that the game is so good that all the fuss is about meaningless things.

People are on fire on steam talking about some boots, let them cry about it. I'm a woman, I know that scarlett does not wear stiletto, but average heels with large base. You can easily run or dance on them. But there's a huge thread on steam and sadly several women demands flat shoes. Well done larian, you're job was so good that all the complaints now go on boots and bikini. smile

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Originally Posted by YoungFreshNewbie
I would be very careful with that argument because any aesthetic position appeases one group and displeases another. If you had a different taste and this change fit it better, you would likely not be complaining, but instead appreciating it.

There is that. Personally I don't really care as long as I'm given the choice; I don't really "get" bikini armour, for instance, but I have no objection to someone else using it. As long as I don't have to!


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Originally Posted by YoungFreshNewbie
I would be very careful with that argument because any aesthetic position appeases one group and displeases another.


I completely agree.

But that still does not change the FACT that they had a design for the female PC that they spent time on, settled on, then changed later because of complaints.

I understand they're a company trying to make a good game and a buck, and the best way to do that is appeal to as many people as possible. But they had a vision of design, then changed it. In the scheme of things I honestly think that bikini armor is hardly something to get so worked up about, especially considering how awesome Larian Studios is. But if you take the principle of the matter and apply it to anything else relating to the game you'd see a possible uproar. For instance if people kept complaining about turn based combat being too slow and boring and Larian suddenly changed it to action combat because of complaints. Or if people screamed that there should be no leveling in the game and be completely skill based.

Did any of these things happen? No. But if the developers designed the game with bikini armor I'd love to see them stick to their guns and keep the damn bikini armor. It's the principle of the matter. More than anything I just want to see the developers hold true to the vision IN SPITE of all the bitching and whining.

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But that still does not change the FACT that they had a design for the female PC that they spent time on, settled on, then changed later because of complaints.

They also changed every thing else about the characters, including the option to not even have a female PC. From a Steam discussion:

Originally Posted by DeathKnight
Here's some background to the main characters in D:OS.

There was a time where the hero characters were not even going to be customizable. (I.e. at first, we didn't plan on equipment and all that.)

They had a set background story and unique visuals, and arrived in Cyseal like they were, and I believe at that time they weren't even Source Hunters yet. Just passers-by. Our artists drew concepts of these characters as they were laid out by the writers. The 3D modellers followed concept art to the letter.

This explains high heels. Why did they draw her with high heels? I don't know. She also has long hair, and the man has hands the size of a shovel. Look at the concept art in the loading screen. This was them back then, and this is them now.


But they had a vision of design, then changed it.

The original character design was never the defining aspect of the game. It was never a 'vision'.


But if you take the principle of the matter and apply it to anything else relating to the game you'd see a possible uproar. For instance...

So you give examples of things that couldn't be changed now even if Larian want to do so, and yet ignore the many, many things that have already been changed.

The plot was changed several times, without any outside influence, since Larian didn't reveal much of the original plot lines. The plot of the game. Not concept artwork, the plot of the game.

The original keyword dialog system was changed due to feedback during the kickstarter. Where were all the people then saying Larian 'caved in' to some pressure group or was violated their artistic vision by changing something?

The charm / intimidate / reason mechanism was changed when people pointed out that a weak mage could still be intimidating. Again, nothing from the 'you can not change bikini armour or high heels' crowd.

Not to mention multiple changes to skills, stats, quests, balancing, etc.


More than anything I just want to see the developers hold true to the vision IN SPITE of all the bitching and whining.

Why does cover art exemplify their true vision of a game, but it is ok if they change everything else?

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They also changed every thing else about the characters, including the option to not even have a female PC.

I'm maybe missing your point here. I understand that was changed. The reason for them originally identifying the two PC's as male and female was most likely there for a pivotal reason. It was probably changed to adapt to the multiplayer and allow more connection with the PC if for instance a male wanted to play a male with his friend in the game. Doesn't change the possibility that the Male and Female PC's might have possibly been very pivotal to the original story and thus was changed from original design or vision. Not saying it was a bad thing. I'm just saying in my opinion I would have liked to see where their original ideas would have taken them.

The original character design was never the defining aspect of the game. It was never a 'vision'.


I never made the claim that character design was the defining aspect of the game. I find it weird you claim character design was never a "vision". As an artist I sometimes spend hours trying to come up with a "vision" of what I want to draw before ever putting pencil to paper. Games likewise have bullet points and ideas that create the vision of the game. But the bottom line is video games are visual. We interact with them visually and we explore them visually. If this game was originally envisioned to be sci-fi instead of fantasy it would still be a direction, or even a vision to take the game. All steps taken to enhance the game serve to take it closer to that vision. Character design doesn't necessarily encompass that vision but it obviously is supposed to draw you closer to the world in which they are existing in.

So you give examples of things that couldn't be changed now even if Larian want to do so, and yet ignore the many, many things that have already been changed.

I didn't mean to ignore them. I just simply didn't think all applied to the subject I was talking about. Balancing changes and some mechanical changes don't all necessarily affect the vision of where you want to take a player in a game or story. They can affect the vision. I just don't think they all do. In my opinion I feel like character design does affect it, just as much as the environment those characters are walking around in.

Why does cover art exemplify their true vision of a game, but it is ok if they change everything else?

It's not always okay to change everything else. There's changes that affect gameplay (mechanics) and there are changes that affect the setting and placement of the story and world (design). Since I was mostly focusing on the design, look and feel of the world the game takes place in, I think it's kind of sucky that we can so easily change the design due to complaints, when everyone throws a fit when changes happen to mechanics.

But again, I don't really feel that the changing of the metal bikini is that big of a deal, so much as I would have really liked to see Larian say, "Hey this is how we wanted the characters to look and this is how they're going to look". Again sticking to their guns and stuff for what they had designed. I mean you gotta remember. These guys spend countless hours and time brainstorming and trying to come up with a look and feel of what this world is supposed to be. This is done by the concept artists after the directors and whatnot tell them what they're looking for. Once they have concept art down all 3d modelling and texturing is basically trying to capture and apply the concept art INSIDE the game. So I feel like changing the art affects the original vision of the world they're creating. Because after all that art is what they were trying to capture live in game with 3d models.

In my opinion of course.

Last edited by Elrodeus; 10/02/14 10:16 AM.
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I'm maybe missing your point here. I understand that was changed. The reason for them originally identifying the two PC's as male and female was most likely there for a pivotal reason.

Originally they had specific and very different back-stories. When that was changed, there was no reason to not allow character customization.

My point was that the only change that people complained about was altering the bikini armour on the cover art.


I'm just saying in my opinion I would have liked to see where their original ideas would have taken them.

I'm curious about that myself, and hope Larian goes into a little detail about the original plot and why it was changed at some point.


I never made the claim that character design was the defining aspect of the game.

No, but the change to the bikini armour in the cover art (not even the game itself) was the thing you were arguing they should have stuck to their guns about, and held true to their vision.


I find it weird you claim character design was never a "vision".

By 'vision' in quotes I meant it was never -the- defining vision of the game, the thing that everything else revolves around and which can never be changed. If you want to casually use vision to mean the way the game is represented, then the cover art should be no more immune to change as any other aspect of the game.

If you look at concept art for games and animated movies, etc, some of it is close to the final version, some of it is not. Stuff evolves. Just because something is cover art does not make it somehow sacred. It has no moral or ethical characteristics.


Balancing changes and some mechanical changes don't all necessarily affect the vision of where you want to take a player in a game or story.

So why does cover are effect the vision of the game enough to have (what seems like) millions of posts about, and yet altering the actual story has a grand total of no complaints about Larian changing their artistic vision, etc?


It's not always okay to change everything else.

Of all the people complaining about changes to the cover art or that anyone would even ask for an option to change the female footwear, you are the only person I've see that has shown even the slightest interest in any change that didn't involve bikini armour cover art or high heels.


when everyone throws a fit when changes happen to mechanics.

No, the only game related change anyone accused Larian of some kind of ethical failing over was the cover art (a couple people made similar comments about the alpha/beta being Steam only), and the only thing people heatedly objected to the possibility of adding an option to change was high heels. Some people complained that the game was turn based or that it had an isometric camera, but there was no fit over any changes to mechanics or huge topics about how Larian shouldn't change something.


I feel like changing the art affects the original vision of the world they're creating.

And what if the art didn't accurately represent the original vision they were creating? The female wasn't stuck with bikini armour in the game, as shown in the cover art. The characters were equal in the game, unlike how the cover art portrayed them.

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*smiles* Hi~ used to be active on here a lot, still lurk often. but this post is bringing me back. I fully agree on the female armor. it should be kinda pretty, least some options.

*Knife jab!* That is for anyone who was about to rant about "realism" cause I am at my end with the "realism" stuff. Point is, is it realism to wander around bashing orcs? kicking skeletons and summoning elementals? No it's not..(if it is for you, please share your drugs ._.)

I am not sure if it was a bug or not, but I tried to put my water mage into a robe..and it put her in a odd textured bikini. Add in some pretty robes for casters please.

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http://ptgptb.free.fr/index.php/armures-de-fantasy-et-attributs-feminins/

Sorry for the French, but it's the PoV of an armorsmith.
And while people talk about realism of armors, the point is more whether those armors are credible.

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