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So here is the short and quick version of my initial review and why I've mentioned the game as being one of the worse gaming experiences of my life. I've got faith in Larian to make some adjustments to ensure no one goes threw such a miserable experience like this again (unless they really want a challenge).

NOTE: For replies about the combat issue, please go to my already existing thread at
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=491994&gonew=1#UNREAD
as this thread is meant for an over-all first experience, not my main problem area which is combat.

Music: nothing short of fantastic!
General NPC dialog: Needs a touch more humor to feel like the other games that I'm used to.
Books: Bunch of them have no text in them at all. And no concept art which I loved seeing in Sword of Lies.

Road to First Town:
Initial "dungeon" (should be called a hidden crypt as it isn't a dungeon which is really a prison) was very lacking in a tutorial that made learning spells, figuring combat out, etc very difficult. Please remove the mentioning of this as a dungeon, RPG's have beaten the word dungeon up and call everything underground a bloody dungeon and it is really annoying.

Town:
Couldn't figure out how to use a bucket with water and then throw it on the burning boat, nor find NPC's to help put out the fire. I hope the fishermen had insurance on the boat frown

Once NPC outside the main bar was particularly annoying going on about this Fabulous Five. I was happy to just "take my leave" and move on. Want to finish up a bunch of my already started quests before taking on any more and getting totally lost in it all.

Jake Murder: Fun! though I can't find the secret laboratory. Couldn't get any help from Arhu on "his monstrosity". Couldn't find it going to the Lighthouse or the beach where the level 7 Orc's are. Gave up (due to issues with combat).

Combat: Found out on the forums I missed finding people to hire and there were no hints prior to going outside the town that I needed a larger party. The guards just said regular civilians cannot leave town and let me go threw the gates. This is where the game really sucked as I really tried to enjoy myself. It took over 8 hours to get up to the light house with failing fights and trying to figure out why the game was so damn hard. I'm not sure how it took this long, but the clock doesn't lie...

Swen, I think your awesome but after the experience I just had... some major work in the beginning needs to be done or this game will fail. If I didn't know you for over 10 years, I wouldn't even attempt playing this game again over the experience I just had. Combat in this game had me really miserable and irritated as I had forgotten you could even hire NPC's to join you. I'll play the game again when a new build is released.

Even if a super noob "tutorial mode" is enabled until going outside of town to ensure one has hired mercenaries has to be added. I'm sure a pop up can offer to disable it if "you truly are experienced with this game!"

Last edited by LightningLockey; 29/04/14 06:57 AM.

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Hi LightningLockey!

I read it all and sympathise. I appreciate you taking the time to write down your experiences here - we certainly didn't set out to make this your second most miserable game experience ever smile

We know we need to do some significant work still on the tutorial, and we will. Part of the problem is indeed that this game is quite different from our previous endeavours, and we need to educate players a bit about all the things that you can do such as hiring companions or henchman, but also about what you cannot do too. I wrote a small piece about this particular issue here: http://www.lar.net/2014/03/07/educating-players/

However, it is a game that requires you to backtrack from time to time, and seek out solutions using the mechanics that are available for dealing with the situations that you encounter. We're making it challenging on purpose because otherwise people wouldn't experiment with the various systems (because there would be no need to), and discovering how to deal with a situation in an innovative manner using the available mechanics usually leads to fun gameplay.

This is definitely not the easiest design approach in the world, and the risk is indeed that people run into a brick wall if they don't try different approaches. Which is why we integrated so many ways of reaching your goals, but sometimes, it's possible that you have to abandon one goal, just because you developed your game in such a way that a solution isn't possible anymore. Which is fine by the way - the game's been designed such that you'll always be able to finish it, even if you kill everybody. But also such that you can finish it with very little combat (not recommended for beginners wink )

Still we certainly don't want it to be too much of a frustrating experience , which is why there are different difficulty levels (which still need to be tweaked, this is just their first iteration). That together with a better tutorial (and in-game education that progress will only happen through exploration) will hopefully remove the game from your top 2 position.

Did you play on easy or normal ?

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Great response to LightningLockey's concerns and frustrations! Thank you, Swen! smile

I also read that blog article of yours you linked, and you wanted some ideas how to reach more of your target audience. Perhaps, I'm coming in a bit leftfield here, but isn't the still vibrant and large pen-n-paper RPG-crowd and obvious match for this game? When I played and truly adored Ultima and Baldur's Gate, for instance, I had already been rolling dice, painted miniatures, laughed, argued and lied around tables with friends for years, and I did find that some of that PnP-magic was preserved in a few great games. That feeling is all but extinguished today, since so very few games even tried something remotely similar to them. Your vision of this game is in fact clearly a social and deep RPG. Hence, people enjoying them outside the world of computer games will most likely love this ambitious endeavour of yours, which is pretty much unique nowadays. If I were you, I would underline this point over and over, because it is something fantastic: That co-op play where you get to disagree with your fellow party member, the living, breathing world, where objects actually have uses and can change entire quests. All in all, it is a creative world, where fantasy gets to be roleplaying again, and not just something cinematic that you passively take in.

Last edited by Indira Weresheep; 29/04/14 11:41 AM.

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@LightningLockey
i think u should spend more time exploring, experimenting, talking to ppl and not just rush through the gates and into the wild.
I remember playing Gothic-well not just Gothic many RPGs have same approach and there was so that u couldn't enter some areas (well u could but u got killed pretty soon) until later on when u were strong enough to fight beasts there and its same here.
DOS gives u access to almost any area, but its your choice where to start so dont blame designers for not holding your hand through whole game, instead blame yourself to not being able to make the right choice.

One thing though is imo valid in this respect and that is that differences between levels are too big -leveling up buffs your character too much and same goes for enemies. That is also what makes u feel that game although its more or less open world becomes very much linear. But thats why game is still in beta and balancing is smt i think they are working on right now.

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Im confused about why you think there were no hints about needing a larger party. To get out of the gates, the guards will literally say "stop, you are too low level, you don't have enough people in your group". Did you play the game a few months back when this wasnt implemented or something?

I was STILL getting nagged at level 10, because I took lone wolf.

In terms of difficulty, the game can be pretty brutal at the start due to the lack of skills. When you try again, I seriously recommend trying out the Raistlin / Lonewolf Wizard / Warrior build. Your wizard goes fire magic for attack, water magic for defense. You buy some basic fire magic skills as soon as you can, as well as a healing spell. To fund this, you need to go on a stealing spree stealing whatever you can from peoples houses (paintings and golden cups for example). Your warrior takes shield and one handed, his job is primarily to soak up damage. When you have levelled up a bit, you can start buying decent buff spells from your mage that turn your warrior from a meat shield into a ridiculous 20 action point buffed unstoppable demon from hell.

The raistlin lonewolf build means you don't have to worry about dealing with two extra party members, and your two playable characters are very strong to compensate. You get more skill points to distribute giving you more flexibility.

If you can find the heart to play again at release, I recommend trying the build (unless Larian nerf it first).

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Originally Posted by LightningLockey


Combat: Found out on the forums I missed finding people to hire and there were no hints prior to going outside the town that I needed a larger party. The guards just said regular civilians cannot leave town and let me go threw the gates. This is where the game really sucked as I really tried to enjoy myself. It took over 8 hours to get up to the light house with failing fights and trying to figure out why the game was so damn hard. I'm not sure how it took this long, but the clock doesn't lie...



I'm going to be a little blunt so excuse my approach. I have to be honest and say that you're not enjoying yourself because you've (we all frankly in recent years) let yourself be "trained" by mainstream CRPGs to be a bit of a nob when it comes to games. Everything has been fed to us in games such as Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc. where we do nothing but essentially watch a predetermined movie and not really interact with the story at all. Difficulty frankly has been non-existant in games for a long long time. Why SHOULD Larian tell you that you need a bigger party? Why should they show you a predetermined path? Why wouldn't your own mind tell you, "Hey I need to figure out what's going on here?" ...I think DOS is a nice breath of fresh air in that it DOES NOT hold your hand like a baby.

Larian has taken a totally different - more old school approach to game design (Ultima 7) where you can fully interact with the world in the way that you want. In fact, the game DOS is now at a state where we all wished games were back in the day.

If you are having trouble with the game you need to start to figure out why... why am I failing. Rather than blaming it on the game, start to analyze your approach to encounters, analyze your tactics. This is NOT a game where you're uber powerful and you can simply grind through the enemies. You need to spec your PC's right, you need to understand how each of them interact with each other, and how to exploit the abilities of your party. Once you figure it out, the game is incredibly more satisfying than any other RPG you've ever played. I guarantee it.

To Larian --- PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS GAME EASIER. The difficulty is perfect where it is. I hope you do not cater to the crowd that just wants to burn through the story. Part of the charm Larian is the difficulty of this game and the requirement for players to actually use their brains in combat vs. spamming attacks or special abilities. So sick of it.

Keep up the good work Larian.

Last edited by bigironvault; 29/04/14 01:04 PM.
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While you do have some good points, some others are essentially "the game didn't hold my hand, and didn't spoonfeed me every hint or tip the first time I ever played it."

The tutorial is still a work in progress, and it could use some additional things.

Eight guys ineffectually throwing water on a boat while shouting "it'll take more than a a few buckets to save her" is probably enough of a clue that one more bucket isn't going to help. The tutorial dungeon gave another tip about the burning ship.

The Fabulous Five NPC is intentionally annoying. You're not supposed to like him. You can also just say "I'll take my leave" right away to stop talking to him.

If you HAD taken on the Fabulous Five quest, you could have talked to Arhu about his monstrosity and gotten help.

The harbour gate hasn't been updated to use the same dialogue as the in-town gates, which suggest getting companions and higher levels, and yes that should be done.

A lot of your complaints about the combat are the result of you going out, finding it very difficult, and then continuing on in the exact same way for hours, repeatedly banging your head against the wall. If something isn't working, try something different.

You didn't look around for backup or try lowering the difficulty in the game options. You clearly entered the tavern, but didn't talk to Madora. The Companions first dialogue is "oh boy can I join you, huh, can I, can I"? No payment or quest required. Jahan isn't the easiest to find, and rumours from NPC's suggesting the existence of companions could help, but you should try looking around and talking to people.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
While you do have some good points, some others are essentially "the game didn't hold my hand, and didn't spoonfeed me every hint or tip the first time I ever played it."


Eight guys ineffectually throwing water on a boat while shouting "it'll take more than a a few buckets to save her" is probably enough of a clue that one more bucket isn't going to help. The tutorial dungeon gave another tip about the burning ship.

The Fabulous Five NPC is intentionally annoying. You're not supposed to like him. You can also just say "I'll take my leave" right away to stop talking to him.

A lot of your complaints about the combat are the result of you going out, finding it very difficult, and then continuing on in the exact same way for hours, repeatedly banging your head against the wall. If something isn't working, try something different.

this..all of this..

Sure some pointers could be there, but all in all it seems as if you are not having the reflex of thinking out of the box, searching the limits of the world manipulation..
Which probably comes due to a lot of non-free rpg's (i admitt, I had to die a bit before i started to think differently ^^)



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Agreed I had to die a ton my first play as well. But when you put some effort in it, you'll be rewarded 10 times over.

Un-train your CRPG mind.

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I'll also add that even if you skip joining the Fabulous Five, Arhu does indeed offer help on his monstrosity if you go and ask. You get the quest started by entering the cave and talking to the desperate recruits, and if you go back to Arhu, you can indeed talk to him about the Sparkmaster and he'll offer you help.

The Fabulous Five recruiter is a salesman for a pyramid scheme, so of course he's pushy, aggressive, and obnoxious.

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To be honest I've never bothered to ask for help and the sparkmaster was never a real problem. The key is in battle map control.

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I find the game difficulty and the way it presents itself, the story and the gameplay a real, soothing breath of fresh air.

Its like breathing with full lungs again.

Being nice to some lone very inexperienced, complete noob of a player who never played a real RPG before - obviously, is a nice thing to do. And remember, all of use had to take such first steps and struggle through first frustrations with our first real True RPGs once long ago - once when games had to be actually played - not just experienced - and thats why we came to love them.


Im sure that you devs are seeing the numbers here.


Easy modes are all fine and great. btw.
When they remain in their places.

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combat is amazing in this game o.o you just have to be sure you know where you are putting your team. Do remember you can use the land to your favor. It never hurts to take a moment and look at the field and plan some tactics!

Starting out I will admit is very a bit confusing~ the new dungeon helps though! I hope this does not count as a spoiler...but you can find a certain paper thing on the beach~ that can help save the burning boat. Water is your friend O.O >.> o.o...

Packmules..I mean companions o.o I also had no idea there were some to recruit in the main town. but that also taught me I need to look around and talk to more npcs ^_^

*EDIT* One thing I still have no idea how to do or even start is crafting, that is the one thing I would love a tutorial on~

Last edited by Ellary; 29/04/14 10:39 PM.
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Thanks for taking the feedback Lar, this is why I have such high faith in your company!

I played the game on Normal mode only.

As for "why should a game be decently easy" well first off, I really don't look for a challenge factor in the game. I don't waste my time with games like Ghosts and Goblins because I don't have much time to play a game. I'm more after games of adventure and mostly fun. Though I always do expect to have a challenge when coming to bosses.

As for learning spells, majority of the stuff required 2 in elemental power and I can only get one of each. I've got quite the collection of spell books to learn once I can get 2 in fire for the wizard. I sold a lot of paintings to get those spell books btw.

Also as I said before I'm not giving up on the game, just this particular build. Once the next update comes out, I'll spend another weekend and see how things fair out. I'm going to give larian time to rub their hands, make some magic and see how many bunnies they can pull out of a hat. Most places I'd expect maybe one bunny, with Larian... usually they pull multiple rabbits out of the hat and put them up for adoption.

And again I repeat myself: I NEVER had any gate guards tell me my party was too small. They just simply opened the gates. As for me banging my head with the same tactics, I kept going after the enemies and used the environment to my advantage. To the point of making barricades by clicking and dragging barrels and such.

Last edited by LightningLockey; 30/04/14 06:09 AM.

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Originally Posted by Ellary
I hope this does not count as a spoiler...but you can find a certain paper thing on the beach~ that can help save the burning boat. Water is your friend O.O >.> o.o...


HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN he revealed the spot of the raining scroll !! shame on him and on his 3 next generations !!! :p


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-baaaaaaOOOOORGH"
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Originally Posted by LightningLockey
I NEVER had any gate guards tell me my party was too small. They just simply opened the gates.

For the north and east gates there is a conversation check on the number of characters in the party and their level. After asking them to open the gate, did you not have a response saying 'you don't look like you're quite ready to head out', to which you could say 'don't worry, I can take care of myself' or 'on second thought, leave the gate closed for now'?
The gate by the harbour is closed as it is too dangerous, and there are a couple hints along the beach that the opponents there may be tough.

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You need to save up your leveling points to buy the higher values in magic and skills. 1 point for level 1 then 2 points for level 2, 3 for level 3 etc so it's 10 points total spend for level 4. All skilled up is a big help there as are items that boost them. By near end of beta content I got +3 on way of the warrior from items for my Battlemage last build, so it only cost me 3 points to get level 5 way of the warrior and all those lovely extra action points.

also, if you manage to find the low level dungeon run inside the town, you may dig the game a bit more.

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Originally Posted by LightningLockey
Thanks for taking the feedback Lar, this is why I have such high faith in your company!
I played the game on Normal mode only.



Quote
As for "why should a game be decently easy" well first off, I really don't look for a challenge factor in the game. I don't waste my time with games like Ghosts and Goblins because I don't have much time to play a game. I'm more after games of adventure and mostly fun. Though I always do expect to have a challenge when coming to bosses.

Well, honestly - without any desire to be rude about it at all - once you say things like this ... matters become crystal clear.

There is no need to say anything further.

Except the usual, maybe you shouldn't play games that actually are meant to be played, if you dont have the time, or play games at all - this isnt that kind of a game, - and you may as well watch some well made lets play on youtube.


Quote

As for learning spells, majority of the stuff required 2 in elemental power and I can only get one of each.

Well, you know... in True(tm) RPG games you have to earn some points, xp or skill points, which you then get to invest in those skills and abilities.

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I've got quite the collection of spell books to learn once I can get 2 in fire for the wizard. I sold a lot of paintings to get those spell books btw.

Thats fine, you havent wasted anything.
You just need to earn some xp.

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Also as I said before I'm not giving up on the game, just this particular build. Once the next update comes out, I'll spend another weekend and see how things fair out. I'm going to give larian time to rub their hands, make some magic and see how many bunnies they can pull out of a hat. Most places I'd expect maybe one bunny, with Larian... usually they pull multiple rabbits out of the hat and put them up for adoption.

Im pretty sure, nay - categorically positive that you will not find that kind of a version of this game - ever.

The best you can do is wait for game difficulty options to become available in game options.



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And again I repeat myself: I NEVER had any gate guards tell me my party was too small. They just simply opened the gates.

Thats not true but you actually needed to read that stuff called text, that was obstructing your view at that moment for some seconds. The thing you needed to click away?


Quote
As for me banging my head with the same tactics, I kept going after the enemies and used the environment to my advantage. To the point of making barricades by clicking and dragging barrels and such.

smile

Yeah, thats the best stuff. Dont have that kind of stuff happening in those fancy mass market action gameys eh? :P

Those kind of things become the best memories of your gaming ... once the game makes a lean and mean RPG fighting machine out of you.


Honestly,... i doubt you will make it out of boot camp.
I think youre going to give up. Run home to mommy from those evil bad undead kicking your ass every which way to Sunday.

Aintcha now?

Last edited by Hiver; 30/04/14 09:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by LightningLockey
I NEVER had any gate guards tell me my party was too small. They just simply opened the gates.

For the north and east gates there is a conversation check on the number of characters in the party and their level. After asking them to open the gate, did you not have a response saying 'you don't look like you're quite ready to head out', to which you could say 'don't worry, I can take care of myself' or 'on second thought, leave the gate closed for now'?
The gate by the harbour is closed as it is too dangerous, and there are a couple hints along the beach that the opponents there may be tough.


No such conversation happened with the gate guards. I've made mention of this a few times. Stabby said that I somehow walked into a bug, I first went threw the gate at coordinates X339 Y247 which might have triggered the bug. I then went threw the gate at X176 Y169 which the guards didn't say anything about a larger party. I hope this helps end all the confusion.

Quote of the day award:
Originally Posted by Hiver
[quote=Hiver]
Honestly,... i doubt you will make it out of boot camp.
I think youre going to give up. Run home to mommy from those evil bad undead kicking your ass every which way to Sunday.

Aintcha now?


The reason why I don't have time is that I'm actually in the military you punk. But that is enough food for the troll that you obviously are for now.

I do apologize to the forum mods for this, normally I don't go into such conversations with obvious trolls, but this one gave me a real good hearty laugh after a stressful day.[u][/u]

Last edited by LightningLockey; 01/05/14 02:06 AM.

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:One eyebrow slowly rises:

That doesnt change a single thing about anything i said, but hey, good to see on what levels you are operating.

Besides, that particular line or two you quoted has nothing to do with "not having time".
It is rather specific i thought.


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