Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta BETA 1.059 Skills/abilities change thread

Those prereqs are the result of directly taking them from "Way of the... abilities"


1) This was intended to be for the Rogue, which is why it has that requirement. If it was to change to Willpower or CON - depending on how strict the requirements are - it may no longer be obtainable for a Rogue.

2) That sounds pretty reasonable, Speed is one of the more commonly used stats.

3) That also seems to make sense, although it does decrease the use of the "Man at Arms" ability.

4) Again, this was intended to be for the Warrior, and a willpower requirement may make that less interesting.


My own new talent interjections:

I said this in the global chat, and I know Forktong was reading it, but I'll repeat it on the record anyway:

Backstabber lets you backstab with daggers and knives
Mack the Knife reduces AP cost of daggers and knives by 1

Needing TWO talents to make daggers as good as they were a patch or so ago seems to be excessive. Daggers base damage is low, especially for frontal attacks, so a 3-AP cost seems too high. I think daggers AP cost should return to 2. Leave Backstabber as a talent for daggers, I think that's fine - it's just needing TWO talents that irks me.

I totally agree with this.



Third-ed.



It s not constricting or restricting so you should stop calling it like that. Its pointless declaratory statement unsupported by anything except your wrong understanding of how the new one works.



And thats exactly what it does.



Appropriately so. Because if you want to train to be a very good fighter - you will spend all your time of training improving those specific attributes and skills.



Not true.


we are debating it but that does not mean you are in the right.
As when facts are concerned - you are not.


It doesnt. Thats the main point im making.




You see, that was my point and you didnt understand what im saying to you.

The Pure Fighter build is a better FIGHTER - not better overall. There is no reason why it should be better completely.

Thats the problem of your logic on this issue.

In your own example you can see that the pure fighter will have access to high level fighter skills that hybrid builds will not have - and he will have much bigger physical attributes which will enhance several mechanics and skills - which the hybrid classes wont have.

Therefore your pure fighter will be a much better FIGHTER then the hybrid build.



LOW LEVEL SPELLS!!!!

They are all low level spells, regardless from which school of magic they are.



YES?



And you can right now.
Just invest everything into being a pure fighter damnit!



OF COURSE IT DOES!



No it bloody wont!

You only think so because you incorrectly understand hybrid build capability to have several different types of magic as something that is stronger then the pure fighter. IT ISNT!
Its just more diverse. But all those spells are low level spells!



No, it does not.

-

(I didnt quote everything written above this sentence by you, and other parts of your post not because im trying to falsely represent what youre saying but because all those conclusions you made are based on the wrong basis - therefore they are wrong.

And it isnt necessary to address any of them specifically, since they just repeat what you already stated and i addressed.)

-

The new system is great. It enables everyone to make whatever builds they want without any specific false restrictions and that includes pure specialized builds - which will perform much better - in their own specific field - then the hybrids builds - but wont be so diverse. DUH!

And by the way, i know this very well - because im playing with Madora who is a pure fighter and i keep her so intentionally, while my Source hunters are both hybrids of different kinds.

And Madora is a much better fighter then both of them. She is the one that is actually finishing the fights. Dealing most damage. Especially in the tougher ones.

Its just that they make up for the difference with other skills. While they die much more then she does.

Because they cannot even wear the armors she can, dont have that much of HP, or cannot deal that much damage with weapons they can use, etc, etc.

Then leave requirements as they are now and add some bonus to skills from the ability levels.
add xx% to effects
reduce AP costs
reduce cooldowns

I like that Maybe something like:

Rank 1: Max 3 Skills (Minimum to learn a school)
Rank 2: Max 5 Skills, 10% reduced cooldown (minimum 1)
Rank 3: Max 7 Skills, -1 AP cost
Rank 4: Max 9 Skills, additional 10% reduced cooldown
Rank 5: Unlimited Skills, additional -1 AP cost

The reduced cooldown would only be one or two turns each, depending on how large the base cooldown is.


The idea of having to keep a library of skillbooks in your inventory seems a bit unwieldy to me.

What if instead of getting a skillbook back when you switch skills, the Skills interface is changed slightly to add indications (greying out?) of what skills are in your deck. From there you could choose to activate and deactivate skills from the skills menu without having to use books.

The only drawback I can see is that you won't be able to swap unlearned skillbooks to other party members, but since you couldn't do that before with learned skills, and that would mean losing it anyway, I don't think people will notice or mind much.

Mockup of idea:



(This image was made before the patch, which is why it's off.)

Thorska & Stabbey: These last posts are great suggestions! I really do hope that Larian listen to this, since it's a simpler and more intuitive skill deck system.

I think the new talents are a big improvement over the previous ones.

And i hope more will be added before the release. They are all relatively small numerical improvements so i think this can be done. Theoretically.


I also agree with the posters above who argue that investing into specialized builds and therefore increasing attributes to high levels should have its own rewards. Such as were mentioned.

- Reducing the AP cost of lower level abilities and or spells, and skills. (but only lower level ones)

- Reducing cooldowns of the same lower starting skills, spells and abilities.

- Increasing damage (though this has to be done sparingly and carefully since higher level abilities spells and skills would loose their prestige and usefulness otherwise)


All these seem like a very reasonable way to enhance the system a bit more.
But, for all of these, special care has to be taken not to overdo it, - of course.

I think the biggest problem of the current system is that it allows using multiple spell categories to maximum effect for very little investments. Lets have a look at two different characters:

Case 1:
I am a Warrior that dives in to the enemy lines. I also want to uses close range fire magic along with my sword.

current beta version (1.0.59.0):

- I need 1 point in fire magic to equip 3 spells
- i have to invest points in intelligence to be able to learn fire spells
- the amount of intelligence points I invest determine the power level of fire spells I can cast

The current system works here, because of the int requirement. I have to make an investment in intelligence in order to use my fire spells.


What happens when I want to mix different magical schools? Lets have a look at that:

Case 2:
I am a Fire Mage that attacks his enemies with high damage spells from afar. I also want to use some earth magic to supplement my kit.

current beta version (1.0.59.0):

- I need 1 point in earth magic to equip 3 spells
- since I already have high intelligence I can learn the highest level earth spells immediately (given I have the required character level). These spells are just as powerful as the spells of the main element (which I have maxed)
- with a single point in any other spell category I can also learn its most powerful spells

The current system does not work very well in this case, because I get full access to the most power full each categroy without any drawback for just 1 ability point. It would be very easy to just put one point into each spell category and in the end this would be the most effective way building any pure mage character. You will end up with a jack of all trades killing, healing and buffing maschine.

The "something extra" for skill abilities as already mentioned would have to be something substantial (like +10% damage increase per point and a unique effect when maxed out) to remedy this. It still would feel strange to cast a meteor storm with just one point in fire magic.


That being said I would also prefer the old system with some adjustmens.


Or maybe magic should be treated differently than the physical combat abilities.

One way these issue can be balanced relatively easily is to increase requirements for the most powerful spells. And to decrease their damage initially - which would then increase as we invest more points into their specific governing attributes and skills.

So, at lower levels, you would not be able to simply invest one single point into an elemental school and get the very powerful spells of that school.

And if you can get some of the better spells early - they wont cause so much damage as they will once you level up and invest more points into specific skill.

While if you specialize in a single magic school - you will get appropriate higher levels in it more quickly and therefore you will be able to use more powerful spells of that specific kind and to their full potential.

I think this issue is arising from specific spells not being restricted properly then anything else.

Remove abilities and talents.
Make 5 tiered (novice, compagnon, veteran, master, legendary) skills/spells, Learning is tied to preceding skill and attributes

For example:
Novice backstab: allows backstab. -10% hit chance, damage x1,5, 6 cooldown, req DEX 6
Compagnon backstab: +0% hit, damage x 2, 6 cooldown, req dex 8 and novice backstab
Veteran backstab: +10/hit, damage x 2,5, 5 cooldown, req dex 10 and compagnon backstab
Master backstab: +20% hit, damage x3, 5 cooldown, req dex 12 and veteran backstab
Legendary Backstab: +35% hit, damage x 4, 4 cooldown, req dex 14 and master backstab

Summon spiderling
Summon small spider
Summon spider
Summon large spider
Summon Ungoliant.

and so on...

Make more attributes to add to the diversity.
And make them skills available only through teachers, that will give the skill books for a sum of money (50 gold for basic skills, 10 000 for master, legendary only through quests or special teachers or specific loot, well...) and through dialogue rewards, and get rid of those ugly skill merchants.


That way, players can learn the skill they want (still attribute dependant), the player can specialize in some skills and spells, and you have control over the process, because you can dispatch teachers where you want. You can even have a pretty decent money sink here.

And we shouldn't unlearn an already learned spell/skill, it's horrible.

I'm going to have to stop trying to debate this with you simple because you are simple picking out certain parts of what I say and disregarding other things I say because you think that they are incorrect. I've done the testing, I played through the beta 3 different times with 3 different builds before this patch, I know what builds can be achieved. I don't just say things out of the blue, iv done them in the game already.

I am currently on my 2nd play through of the new patch. Guess what? my fighter ends up with the exact same build(aside from things that have been removed and -4 stats from his str for talent)I had in the old system. the difference? it took longer to get there and I had to sit on points for levels at a time.

I am not picking anything. I am addressing the core of your argument. There is no need to go over every following sentence if that is wrong.
You simply dont want to understand a very simple and obvious thing.

The facts are not supporting what you are thinking either and now youre going to "stop debating" and just loop back into repeating the same thing while you either dont understand what im saying to you or dont want to understand it - because it invalidates your argument.

And you can see that in the game itself. Make one of your character a hybrid build and make another a pure fighter and keep them like that.

See which one is better at fighting.
There is no contest there at all.


Some smaller things can and should be adjusted still, - some relatively powerful spells are available very early and if that is adjusted the situation will look much better.
But, there is no systemic fault as you presented it.

Actually.

I'm thinking that this problem can be solved by making skillbooks less random. Like, make a certain pool of low level skillbooks available in the early game areas, another pool of mid level skillbooks for the mid game, and another for most powerful ones for the end game. As I've said before, this will make sure that players have tried out all levels of skills.
However, general level restriction is still a good idea, because otherwise some players will just try to rush to a higher pool area asap just to get more powerful skillbooks from some vendor.

Stat restriction may not be such a bad idea either, because otherwise most powerful skills will become available to anyone who has spent at least 1 point in corresponding Way of the whatever. But, personally, I don't like it, because it yet again forces to specialize.
What would be better, I think, is to allow all skills if you have sufficient level and points invested in corresponding Way of the..., but make their power depend on stats. Like, for example:
A jack-of-all-trades dabbling in magic (aka. AD&D Bard type) may learn a fireball skill, but it will do much less damage than a fireball of a more intelligent scholar mage, who is dedicated solely to the Art.
Meaning, you can still play whomever you want, with whatever skills you want, but if you really want to make the most out of them you gotta hone those skills. And that's where primary stats come in.

That's sort of my thinking too - the "skill" ability levels would govern which (as well as how many) of that category's skills you could learn (i.e. bringing back one aspect of the system that had been in prior beta versions, with "Level 1" through "Level 5" skills), while other player stats (such as attributes, talents, and/or character level) would govern how effective those skills are.



That looks/sounds great to me too.

I love that idea the cooldown reduction! would greatly improve my water healer! I could see it also helping many others with utility skills.

You want to restrict skills levels through ability levels? I don't think we should get back to that - it will yet again encourage players to neglect other abilities and invest points only into Way of the... abilities to get most powerful skills asap. I think new mechanics are better, restricting only the amount of skills. However I agree that Way of the... abilitites need more bonuses with each level.

I see what you're saying, but I think we need to do something to give players an incentive to invest more than 1-3 points in the new "skill" abilities (I think that's what you mean when you say "Way of the...," since those old abilities no longer exist?). If the most powerful skills can be learned regardless of the level of the related ability, there's not much point to the ability. That's why I thought the ability should again govern the "level" of skill that can be learned - BUT the actual power of the skill will be governed by other stats. So, it would be significantly different than the old system, where you could simply pump an ability to level 5 and be mostly done.

That said, I see you agree the abilities need to have other "bonuses" attached beyond simply allowing more skills to be active at one time. Do you have some ideas for that? I know Larian has also said they want to do more with the new abilities, but are apparently still considering exactly what.

How about making powerful ones simply unavailable until later in the game, like I previously suggested?

AP cost and cooldown reductions sound good enough for me. Actually, they can be good enough to persuade players to put more points into current Way of The... abilities. I mean, faster and more frequent usage of skills? Yes, please

Some more general food for thought about skills:
Remembering AD&D BG series I recall there were some interesting mechanics for mages:
-Mages got more spell slots by leveling up
-Specialized mages got more spell slots than generalists but were restricted only to certain schools of magic
-Additional slots could be gained by wearing special items
-Spell levels (there were 9 total) were capped at intelligence level, meaning no 9th level spells for you if you only have 16 intelligence.
(There were also some stupid mechanics like spell writing failure percentage countered by intelligence boosting potions, but let's not get into that).

Looking back at how it worked, I'm thinking about yet another alternative - why not ditch gaining skill slots through Way of the.. abilities and increase their general amount simply by leveling up instead?
-For example, at levels 1-3 you get only 3 skill slots, 4-7 - 4 slots, etc.
-Way of the... abilities can play the role of specialization by giving damage, lasting effect and previously suggested AP and cooldown bonuses to their corresponding skill schools.
-Skills can be broken down to several levels, namely 5, and their use is restricted by primary stat, just like in AD&D.

So, what we'll have here is that every character will have a fixed amount of skill slots based on their level. All characters are free to fill these slots with whatever skills they want but to a certain point, which is capped by skills stats prerequisites. Players who want to specialize further can spend points into Way of the... abilities to gain mentioned above bonuses to their corresponding skills.
So, what do you, guys, think about this?
Personally, I think this will let players spend their ability points more freely.

I always liked that AD&D system myself; EinTroll also mentioned this earlier. Definitely some things there Larian could work with.

So as I understand you, there would be three main variables affecting skills:

1) Player level = number of skills learnable at one time for all skill categories (currently, the individual "skills" abilities control this)
2) "Skill" ability level = effectiveness of skills in that category (damage, AP cost, cooldown, etc.)
3) Controlling stat (STR/DEX/INT) = maximum "level" of skill learnable for skill category(ies) related to that stat

Am I getting you?

Yea, sounds about right.