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Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Elwyn
@Tanist, the "insane" comment originates from Gyson's post - Ellary has just quoted it in her response.

Edit: Oh well, this has already been corrected^^.

Dang nab it! That was like potentially having a front row seat to the ignition point of a nuclear war. cry

I wanted to straighten up the confusion, but couldn't convince my fingers to start typing. So weird.


a nuclear war? O.o you had some odd views of people on the forum. For you to assume others are to slow to work through confusion and would dive into a 'war' continues to show how slow you are.

Edit..forgot to say trololol Gyson~

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Originally Posted by Ellary
Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Elwyn
@Tanist, the "insane" comment originates from Gyson's post - Ellary has just quoted it in her response.

Edit: Oh well, this has already been corrected^^.

Dang nab it! That was like potentially having a front row seat to the ignition point of a nuclear war. cry

I wanted to straighten up the confusion, but couldn't convince my fingers to start typing. So weird.


a nuclear war? O.o you had some odd views of people on the forum. For you to assume others are to slow to work through confusion and would dive into a 'war' continues to show how slow you are. Now I kinda feel bad for posting in here..I was raised not to poke fun at those lacking intelligence... *shrug*

Edit..forgot to say trololol Gyson~

Nah. It's just between Tanist's "I forgive you for your error" style comment and how well you react to criticism (cough), I gave it about two more exchanges before you started getting snippy with someone else. wink

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Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Ellary
Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Elwyn
@Tanist, the "insane" comment originates from Gyson's post - Ellary has just quoted it in her response.

Edit: Oh well, this has already been corrected^^.

Dang nab it! That was like potentially having a front row seat to the ignition point of a nuclear war. cry

I wanted to straighten up the confusion, but couldn't convince my fingers to start typing. So weird.


a nuclear war? O.o you had some odd views of people on the forum. For you to assume others are to slow to work through confusion and would dive into a 'war' continues to show how slow you are. Now I kinda feel bad for posting in here..I was raised not to poke fun at those lacking intelligence... *shrug*

Edit..forgot to say trololol Gyson~

Nah. It's just between Tanist's "I forgive you for your error" style comment and how well you react to criticism (cough), I gave it about two more exchanges before you started getting snippy with someone else. wink


well my sharp mind and troll sense rarely kick in. You must lack the ability to read the forums properly~ I am often quite nice. So feel free to assume you know it all.

oh Gyson....who is getting off topic now? your last two posts had nothing to do with the topic.. are you not the one who complains when people go off topic?

I think we are done here. ^_^ thanks for the luls.

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Originally Posted by Tanist
Ellary, you know how I know MOST developers think that? Because we have a history of games designed in such a way as to not antagonize over what Gyson has? It is a logical evaluation of the result of the work presented based on the technologies available to functionally combat the problem that Gyson has presented. That is, they haven't worried about it as many developers don't waste their time trying to combat external mechanisms and those that did were for different reasons (ie console games did it due to memory limitations).

But hey, if you want to make the argument that they care about such, but haven't implemented it into most of the games because of some mysterious reason, by all means...


I'm still curious why you believe the developers at Firaxis went through the trouble of attempting to discourage save-scumming in XCOM EU (another turn-based strategy game). You suggested no sane developer do this. Were they insane, in your opinion?

I would say they simply had a vision they were determined to keep intact, one where people wouldn't constantly be reloading the game just to try to change the outcome of a round. Their efforts were unsuccessful, but at least they gave it a shot.

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Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Tanist
Ellary, you know how I know MOST developers think that? Because we have a history of games designed in such a way as to not antagonize over what Gyson has? It is a logical evaluation of the result of the work presented based on the technologies available to functionally combat the problem that Gyson has presented. That is, they haven't worried about it as many developers don't waste their time trying to combat external mechanisms and those that did were for different reasons (ie console games did it due to memory limitations).

But hey, if you want to make the argument that they care about such, but haven't implemented it into most of the games because of some mysterious reason, by all means...


I'm still curious why you believe the developers at Firaxis went through the trouble of attempting to discourage save-scumming in XCOM EU (another turn-based strategy game). You suggested no sane developer do this. Were they insane, in your opinion?

I would say they simply had a vision they were determined to keep intact, one where people wouldn't constantly be reloading the game just to try to change the outcome of a round. Their efforts were unsuccessful, but at least they gave it a shot.


You are just looking for a pointless debate..you must be really bored. Why was it unsuccessful? think on that. Does reloading someones game matter that much? Nope~ doesn't matter at all..though it clearly bugs the hell out of you. I actually am feeling bad for you now..not sure how you deal with day to day life not being in control of everyone around you...

The only time Exploiting/Reloading/Cheating for loot matters is in MMOs or games with auction houses for real money
(Like Diablo 3)

Before you try and go all derp. you cannot even bring characters into someone elses game.. cause I know that will be your next focal point on it. So ZERO way for it to effect anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Ellary
Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Tanist
Ellary, you know how I know MOST developers think that? Because we have a history of games designed in such a way as to not antagonize over what Gyson has? It is a logical evaluation of the result of the work presented based on the technologies available to functionally combat the problem that Gyson has presented. That is, they haven't worried about it as many developers don't waste their time trying to combat external mechanisms and those that did were for different reasons (ie console games did it due to memory limitations).

But hey, if you want to make the argument that they care about such, but haven't implemented it into most of the games because of some mysterious reason, by all means...


I'm still curious why you believe the developers at Firaxis went through the trouble of attempting to discourage save-scumming in XCOM EU (another turn-based strategy game). You suggested no sane developer do this. Were they insane, in your opinion?

I would say they simply had a vision they were determined to keep intact, one where people wouldn't constantly be reloading the game just to try to change the outcome of a round. Their efforts were unsuccessful, but at least they gave it a shot.


You are just looking for a pointless debate..you must be really bored. Why was it unsuccessful? think on that. Does reloading someones game matter that much? Nope~ doesn't matter at all..though it clearly bugs the hell out of you. I actually am feeling bad for you now..not sure how you deal with day to day life not being in control of everyone around you...

The only time Exploiting/Reloading/Cheating for loot matters is in MMOs or games with auction houses for real money
(Like Diablo 3)

Before you try and go all derp. you cannot even bring characters into someone elses game.. cause I know that will be your next focal point on it. So ZERO way for it to effect anyone else.

To answer your question, it didn't work (in XCOM:EU) because the seed technique was vulnerable to fairly easy workarounds.

Diablo 3 no longer has an auction house or real money transactions, and yet still makes every effort to keep your character cheat-free.

It seems to me the only person looking for a pointless debate is the one who states "I think we are done here. ^_^ thanks for the luls." and then jumps back into the discussion the moment they see a conversation happening without them. Did you get lonely or something? Because I was addressing Tanist, and yet here you are ready to troll some more.

You clearly have a lot more to say, so in the interest of not plaguing this thread with several more pages of your back-and-forth, I invite you to send me a private message and continue the conversation with me there. Unless you absolutely require an audience and attention, we can privately work on hashing out the issues you seem to have without disturbing everyone else (and this thread) with these personal exchanges of ours. So, please, feel free to PM me if you feel the need to respond.

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Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Ellary
Originally Posted by Gyson
Originally Posted by Tanist
Ellary, you know how I know MOST developers think that? Because we have a history of games designed in such a way as to not antagonize over what Gyson has? It is a logical evaluation of the result of the work presented based on the technologies available to functionally combat the problem that Gyson has presented. That is, they haven't worried about it as many developers don't waste their time trying to combat external mechanisms and those that did were for different reasons (ie console games did it due to memory limitations).

But hey, if you want to make the argument that they care about such, but haven't implemented it into most of the games because of some mysterious reason, by all means...


I'm still curious why you believe the developers at Firaxis went through the trouble of attempting to discourage save-scumming in XCOM EU (another turn-based strategy game). You suggested no sane developer do this. Were they insane, in your opinion?

I would say they simply had a vision they were determined to keep intact, one where people wouldn't constantly be reloading the game just to try to change the outcome of a round. Their efforts were unsuccessful, but at least they gave it a shot.


You are just looking for a pointless debate..you must be really bored. Why was it unsuccessful? think on that. Does reloading someones game matter that much? Nope~ doesn't matter at all..though it clearly bugs the hell out of you. I actually am feeling bad for you now..not sure how you deal with day to day life not being in control of everyone around you...

The only time Exploiting/Reloading/Cheating for loot matters is in MMOs or games with auction houses for real money
(Like Diablo 3)

Before you try and go all derp. you cannot even bring characters into someone elses game.. cause I know that will be your next focal point on it. So ZERO way for it to effect anyone else.

To answer your question, it didn't work (in XCOM:EU) because the seed technique was vulnerable to fairly easy workarounds.

Diablo 3 no longer has an auction house or real money transactions, and yet still makes every effort to keep your character cheat-free.

It seems to me the only person looking for a pointless debate is the one who states "I think we are done here. ^_^ thanks for the luls." and then jumps back into the discussion the moment they see a conversation happening without them. Did you get lonely or something? Because I was addressing Tanist, and yet here you are ready to troll some more.

You clearly have a lot more to say, so in the interest of not plaguing this thread with several more pages of your back-and-forth, I invite you to send me a private message and continue the conversation with me there. Unless you absolutely require an audience and attention, we can privately work on hashing out the issues you seem to have without disturbing everyone else (and this thread) with these personal exchanges of ours. So, please, feel free to PM me if you feel the need to respond.


Oh did I get lonely? I am not the one fishing for a debate. I will not PM you ever.. so don't even get that idea up in your lil melon. As for requiring and audience and attention~ look in the mirror my dear. This topic is far dead and done. it has been pointed out to you multiple times by a few people why it is not "broken" or needs "fixing" you are just to focused on your ego to let it sink in.

oh and trololol trololol *finger twirl* You can't sling insults and go in just about any topic I post and claim I missed points all the time, then expect to be viewed as a poor victim when it bites you in the backside. Welcome to the internet.

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Wow, this thread is the worst.

Last edited by aborell; 19/06/14 12:23 AM.
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Why do people have to quote so much text? Is it that hard to edit quotes to key points to respond to?


The entire debate is pointless, anyway. Even if Larian was suddenly convinced that save summing was a serious issue, and that the potential problems with counter measures were outweighed by the benefits, it would not make any difference at all for D:OS at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ellary
Oh did I get lonely? I am not the one fishing for a debate. I will not PM you ever.. so don't even get that idea up in your lil melon. As for requiring and audience and attention~ look in the mirror my dear. This topic is far dead and done. it has been pointed out to you multiple times by a few people why it is not "broken" or needs "fixing" you are just to focused on your ego to let it sink in.

oh and trololol trololol *finger twirl* You can't sling insults and go in just about any topic I post and claim I missed points all the time, then expect to be viewed as a poor victim when it bites you in the backside. Welcome to the internet.

Actually, I was trying to have a conversation with someone else and you decided there would be none of that and rolled on back in with more of your nonsense - even after specifically stating you were "done". You didn't even manage to stay away from it for a whole hour, only to run back and respond to a 10 minute old comment that wasn't even directed at you. Nothing screams "done" quite like that.

Now you say the topic is "done". I'm starting to think you don't understand what that word actually means. Either it hasn't occurred to you that you're bumping this topic back to the front of the forums every time you respond to it, or you truly are that desperate for attention, even if it has to be in the form of a "pointless debate". Because for the last few pages you have almost single-handedly kept this thread bumped - which, hey, is good visibility for my topic.

I offered to continue this in PM's, but apparently you are happiest when spamming the forum publicly and keeping my threads pinned to the front page. So, by all means, keep doing me that favor, because every time you comment it's a little victory for me.

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Originally Posted by Raze

Why do people have to quote so much text? Is it that hard to edit quotes to key points to respond to?


The entire debate is pointless, anyway. Even if Larian was suddenly convinced that save summing was a serious issue, and that the potential problems with counter measures were outweighed by the benefits, it would not make any difference at all for D:OS at this point.

To be fair, until yesterday my last comment on this topic was over 2 months ago when there was, perhaps, still time to do something about it.

And things would have remained that way, but then two months later Tanist and SteamUser rolled in together and decided to pick an argument with me over a thread I created and had abandoned two months earlier. Checking dates on threads is apparently really tricky/difficult - which would probably explain why Ellary blundered in behind them and made the exact same mistake.

Now there's just a lot of saving face going on.

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Yes, there was certainly much more chance of having an influence a couple months ago than now, though any fundamental changes (other than for balance, or things already planned) were very unlikely once the beta started.

In any case, I wasn't directing my comments at you; you're nick is listed in my post because you started the topic and I used the text box to post without specifically hitting reply/quote on a post.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

I offered to continue this in PM's, but apparently you are happiest when spamming the forum publicly and keeping my threads pinned to the front page. So, by all means, keep doing me that favor, because every time you comment it's a little victory for me.


why go to PM? you have already shown what kind of person you are. you would just copy and paste the messages here in some attempt at showing superiority. As for thread being bumped up. Happy to help! cause it also shows how pointless and nitpicky your topics often are.

hehe, I am glad you think I have the power to call something done and it is~ ever dawn on your Mr Brainpower that I am bored waiting for the release date? Maybe due to all the insults you have slung at me on the forums, maybe I am just living up to all my titles granted?

There was zero mistake on the date. I saw it active and I did not point out on anyone in particular in my post. You my dear took it upon yourself to make it personal~ ^_^

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Originally Posted by Ellary
Originally Posted by Gyson

I offered to continue this in PM's, but apparently you are happiest when spamming the forum publicly and keeping my threads pinned to the front page. So, by all means, keep doing me that favor, because every time you comment it's a little victory for me.


why go to PM? you have already shown what kind of person you are. you would just copy and paste the messages here in some attempt at showing superiority.

Wow.. you have issues.

Originally Posted by Ellary
As for thread being bumped up. Happy to help! cause it also shows how pointless and nitpicky your topics often are.

Actualy it just shows how juvenile your behavior is. But, thanks for the bump!

Originally Posted by Ellary

hehe, I am glad you think I have the power to call something done and it is~ ever dawn on your Mr Brainpower that I am bored waiting for the release date? Maybe due to all the insults you have slung at me on the forums, maybe I am just living up to all my titles granted?

There was zero mistake on the date. I saw it active and I did not point out on anyone in particular in my post. You my dear took it upon yourself to make it personal~ ^_^

Oh, really? Huh.. let's look at your first post:

Originally Posted by Ellary
...serious......serious people?....ya all must be getting really bored..this is the new focal point to complain about?

"Hey that player reloaded their game!"
"The economy in the game is ruined!|
"...Wait..what happens in their game does not effect mine" <- Happy face.

Drama-queen much? You might want to think about choosing your entrance better in the future, maybe you'll get a nicer response for a change. Compare that to my first post (hint, it's the first one in the thread).

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thanks for posting the first post where it says "Ya all" not Gyson~ see what I mean knowing the type you are. As far as forum interactions~ I have no issues with others. So hint think about that. Have fun Gyson. This topic has become your attempt at clever personal insults and you led it way off topic now.

yada yada I know you are going to reply with how you are a victim and not the one who started the off topic blah blah blah.

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I agree with OP. This game has its moments but the entire loot system is hopelessly bad. However I don't think fix-seed is the solution. I think allowing save-scamming is already the best compromise there is.

Right now the game feels like it has a weird combination of Diablo-clone itemization and loot, along with a Baldur's Gate approach of trying to make each enemy encounter unique and memorable.

Diablo works because the entire game is focused on getting loot, it's like a giant slot machine where player gamble with their time investment (the so-called farming). Now it would be unimaginable to make the player only able to kill Pindleskin or Bhaal ONCE per playthrough, and you're force to accept the loot with not even an option to trade it away.

Baldur's gate also works because some of the most famous enemies are tied with their loot drop, Kangaxx the Demi-lich has the Ring of Gaxx, Lord Firkraag has the Casomyr +5, Drizzit has his dual scimitars, their loot is part of their unique identity. "Kill the legendary dragon and get that holy sword" not "kill the dragon and get two scrolls and maybe a crossbow with +1 intelligence" The itemization also emphasizes their uniqueness rather than game balance. Staff of Magi, Celestial Fury are all OP as fuck, but nobody's complaining because Baldur's Gate is a role-playing power fantasy, the players are suppose to feel like the half-god he is wielding power to stop time and conjure meteors. Those enemies are also very powerful in their own way, so the question to the player is always "how do I kill that guy" not "I wonder what would I get for killing that guy?"

These games are masterpieces because their gameplay elements are designed with a clear focus and work together. Right now DOS feels like it doesn't know what it wants to be and just throw a bunch of (sometimes incompatible) elements in the pot, Diablo-esque color graded itemization and random loot, Baldur's gate type of story and role-playing, Elder-scrolls type of dialogue tree design where every random person have the same dialogue making them walking info dumps, and environment manipulation from Magicka.

The randomized loot design off-load the responsibility of balancing the game progression to a random number generator, it allows for easier mass production of extra content and is a cheap way to achieve reasonable replay value. And it also makes everything completely generic and have next to zero personality, no matter how much joke you managed to squeeze in, see Skyrim and its 200 draugr caves for the perfect example. The problem is, Skyrim adopted such a system out of necessity, because it needs a formula to generate new content on its own, I don't know what excuse does DOS have.

The current save-scamming approach, I suspect, is just a compromise to make this mess work, and it sorta did, at least for the current beta. Like "we can't be bothered to tailor rewards to your own preference or the enemies' own characteristics, but you're welcome to try reloading to get a semi-reasonable reward for yourself." If you're gonna make it fix seed, might as well just make it fixed result and a pre-determined progression route.

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I've always liked random loot becuase it adds 'excitement' to the play (oh what pretty present will we find today). King bounty series actually uses a static seed (chosen at the start of each game) so each game is unique but 'save' scumming doesn't work. I am NOT endorsing this method (that is to say I really dont' care either way - if scave scumming exist I will use it from time to time and it it doesn't I won't). I merely mention King Bounty as an example. However, i will note that what some people do is they developed a tool to determine what will be in shops/chests at the start of the game and then 'game' scum. Btw one immediate disadvantage of the KB method is the loot for all chest is generated at start of the game (you could change this to generate it using the static seed when the chest is open but then the order in which chests are opened would allow for a different type of 'scumming'; ala chest? scumming. Btw I use the world scumming because others used it in this long exhuasting thread; not becuase I consider it to be scumming.
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As I already said twice (or more) I'm fine with the current method and if the developers are passoniate to change it then so be it (though I kind of hate static assignment as that makes replays boring; so i do have a bit of an opinion there) and I am admittingly a bit surprise at some of the passion and intolerance in this thread.

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Originally Posted by gmbodhi
I agree with OP. This game has its moments but the entire loot system is hopelessly bad. However I don't think fix-seed is the solution. I think allowing save-scamming is already the best compromise there is.

...

The current save-scamming approach, I suspect, is just a compromise to make this mess work, and it sorta did, at least for the current beta. Like "we can't be bothered to tailor rewards to your own preference or the enemies' own characteristics, but you're welcome to try reloading to get a semi-reasonable reward for yourself." If you're gonna make it fix seed, might as well just make it fixed result and a pre-determined progression route.


Yeah, I can agree with the heart of your statement. There's a concept that some of the people objecting to this thread seem to be missing. When a developer worth his salt comes across a complaint, they don't just disagree and dismiss it. They generally try to figure out what's causing the concern in the first place.

There's a philosophy that exists within the game industry that basically implies that it's up to the developer to figure out what the player actually wants when they're asking for something, and that what the player wants may actually be different than what they're asking for.

With a thread like this, a developer might ask themselves "What's causing players to spend time reloading saved games in front of chests (instead of playing the game) in the first place?". That can lead to a developer taking a look at their reward system, not necessarily a way to prevent save-scumming but looking over loot tables and figuring out if adjustments are needed to make the rewards more appealing, or even creating a discussion internally regarding how rewards are distributed and whether or not that's the best approach. Larian has made multiple adjustments to loot tables in the past months and I'm sure at least part of that is due to our feedback.

Random-player-X might come upon a thread like this and think "this is just stupid, who cares if I save scum", but at the same time may be the same person saying "this is stupid" (or even "this is just stupid, I need to reload and try again") every time they kill a boss and receive absolutely nothing useful as a reward. And they're not seeing the connection. It's incredibly shortsighted to criticize threads where players are bringing up concerns (especially if they seem to be putting a serious effort into it and not just typing "game need better spellz k thxbye") when first registering their complaint, because whether you agree or not with the problem or the suggested solution, it is never a bad thing to get the developers thinking about whether or not something can be done better.

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Eh? Where is this huge mass of posters who are saying that they are forced to save-scum for loot, or that they do save-scum for loot? I don't remember seeing dozens of different people making "I have to save-scum" posts, it just seems to be one poster who is making dozens of posts.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Eh? Where is this huge mass of posters who are saying that they are forced to save-scum for loot, or that they do save-scum for loot? I don't remember seeing dozens of different people making "I have to save-scum" posts, it just seems to be one poster who is making dozens of posts.

Well, there are two separate threads on the topic, along with conversations about it occurring in general chat, so that right there should tell you there's obviously more than "one poster". Feel free to go through them if you want to take the time, making note of any time someone acknowledges that they save-scum (even if only on occasion), or feel save-scumming needs to remain intact because of loot issues. I think you'll see it's more than one person. I'm only suggesting you research the tally (instead of me) since you're the one raising your question.

That said, I think you missed the point of my last post, which really wasn't about save-scumming specifically.

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