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Certainly feels at way. It seems dex focused character (rogue and ranger)MUST be a utility bot, because they can't succeed in anything else.

I would think a rogue with backstab (which require the entire party to build around it, aka let rouge sneak pre battle, no friendly fire, draw attention away from rogue etc)would be the instant death of everything, then I realized even with all that setup, the backstab is hardly better than a single hit from a 2handed warrior. Sure you could go invisible and sneak on the enemy, or but the warrior can do the same with 1 point in air magic, or you know, just ram the damn target. The difference is the rogue is only good for the said backstab, then he is useless for the rest of the battle, serving only as a squishy melee CC bot. You also have to babysit the rogue constantly so he doesn't drop like a fly.

On the other hand, the 2h warrior can do the same "backstab" damage constantly, its not a one trick pony, and on top of that can serve as a tank, and require no setup. For CC, the mage lightning stun feel so much easier than a rouge melee CC, plus mages have real utility with elemental combo and summons, they also actually do (consistent) damage and you know...not being in melee range.

Ranger suffer the same problem, (very) subpar damage compare to warrior, safer due to range, but also squishy so when he does get hit so its not that much better. Special arrows are good but can't find a shaft anywhere. Basically it feels like playing a class with a weapon that constant "breaks" and require luck to "repair" the said weapon, and if you are not lucky, well ... to bad.

So my point is, dex based class is not flush out. You got the setups, good, but the said setup does not yield the results compare to the effort. You are only as good as other class with the setup, and anything less you become a burden. You also have NOTHING else to fall back on should the setup fail, either by your fault or RNG.

To me each meta type class need "the thing" to make them worthwhile, but currently dex class don't have it. For example a rogue should be allowed a "dual wield" spec, and it should the highest damage of all classes, but in exchange, you have zero range (even worse than 2hander warrior), melee, and super squishy (no shield/bad armor). Range stance should be changed to give a "hyper" damage buff but in exchange roots you in place for x turns. So you are trading your safety and mobility for damage. Options like this will make the class more well rounded and less of a one trick pony.

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With just 3 points spent in crafting (1 point if you get the Pragmatic trait), and a few +crafting items which are fairly common throughout the course of the game, you can easily craft all the arrows you need. There are multiple places where recipes are listed. Any Ranger build can spare 1-3 points in order to have (by end game) any special arrow you want. Or put it on another character or a henchman. Early game you can make (at least) stunning and poison arrows very easily, and probably more that I'm forgetting. So yeah, Rangers have probably the MOST utility and access to damage types in the game, limited only by how many arrows you buy/find/craft. I've definitely relied on my Ranger as a crutch in a few hard fights on Hard.

The rogue, you're right it does require some setup, but NO WAY does a warrior match the DPS of backstab daggers. You can backstab 2-3 times for each swing a 2h warrior makes. With a few mobility skills, for example take the ranger one and the rogue one, or have a mage feather drop you, you can instantly, turn 1 teleport to the back of the enemy ranks, then cloak or use invisibility. Turn 2 pick a mage or archer or other dangerous enemy and destroy them. The warrior can't do that (or I guess it could if you took rogue and ranger and invisibility skills and traits but then ... it's not really a warrior is it?).

I'm sure others can speak with even more knowledge as I'm pretty early in the game so far but I've definitely gotten great use out of my Dex based characters.

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One of the biggest strengths of the ranger is the variety of arrows he can use. That makes him pretty much a class which is useful in almost every combat (you couldn't say the same for water or fire mages e.g.). He also has some pretty decent spells like richochet, barrage and charm which makes him very powerful if properly played. wink

Last edited by LordCrash; 04/07/14 05:45 PM.

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As LordCrash said, the Ranger is the King on the battlefield, you can do anything anywhere, almost any time.
Ranger's skill can't miss, Ricochet and Barrage can be devastating with the good weapon.

I find the skill Arrow Spray seriously lacking, but I knew it from the Beta and it was then the most overpowered skill I had ever seen.


As for Scoundrel, I agree that their skills are a little lacking, but the base Damage of a backstabbing rogue is astounding, especially with the Bully skill, just after a Trip.
To enhance the survivability, you can always give your Scoundrel a shield, you lose a bit of mobility & one chance to apply your eventual debuff with your weapon, and you gain blocking chance + stats.
There is no loss of DPS as you will do roughly the same damage in a single strike (hence the loss of chance to apply your weapon debuff, 1 strike instead of 2).

Mine is a Lone Wolf with a shield and Leech, and, to be honest, it's overpowered. I take less damages than a pure Warrior and deal 3 to 4 times the damage, with a huge mobility.

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Originally Posted by thrakkemarn
With just 3 points spent in crafting (1 point if you get the Pragmatic trait), and a few +crafting items which are fairly common throughout the course of the game, you can easily craft all the arrows you need. There are multiple places where recipes are listed. Any Ranger build can spare 1-3 points in order to have (by end game) any special arrow you want. Or put it on another character or a henchman. Early game you can make (at least) stunning and poison arrows very easily, and probably more that I'm forgetting. So yeah, Rangers have probably the MOST utility and access to damage types in the game, limited only by how many arrows you buy/find/craft. I've definitely relied on my Ranger as a crutch in a few hard fights on Hard.

The rogue, you're right it does require some setup, but NO WAY does a warrior match the DPS of backstab daggers. You can backstab 2-3 times for each swing a 2h warrior makes. With a few mobility skills, for example take the ranger one and the rogue one, or have a mage feather drop you, you can instantly, turn 1 teleport to the back of the enemy ranks, then cloak or use invisibility. Turn 2 pick a mage or archer or other dangerous enemy and destroy them. The warrior can't do that (or I guess it could if you took rogue and ranger and invisibility skills and traits but then ... it's not really a warrior is it?).

I'm sure others can speak with even more knowledge as I'm pretty early in the game so far but I've definitely gotten great use out of my Dex based characters.


Define fairly common, are you literally look through every npc pocket and clicking every object? If so that's very poor game play. I expect to be able to use 1 special arrow per enemy, and I can not find anywhere close to that many arrows.

Using other character to buff your rogue is not your rogues strength, you can do the same for the 2h warrior. Also invi and the ranger escape move are not tied to dex and only require 1 point (2 if you use both, hardly an investment). Yes, its not the same as a rogue, because the warrior is strength based, and use 2h weapons, which does not need backstab to do damage.

Lastly, lone wolf doesn't count, that's two characters. Anything lone wolf is OP, because you are representing the strength of half your party.


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I'm not sure I understand why you'd expect to be able to use 1 special arrow per enemy. That seems entirely out of whack. It would first of all not make them very "special" and in my eyes it seems equivalent of expecting to find a scroll/potion/othervaluableconsumable per enemy. Special arrows are there to create an advantage when needed, not to spam as if though your entire quiver is composed of them.

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Wait until you get charm with a ranger... smile

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The beauty of a Dex character over a Str character is the ability to dip into Scoundrel and Ranger without losing much.

You can pepper foes with arrows and then swap to daggers when (if) they get to melee.

Going Scoundrel/Ranger also provides you with TWO charms... and Charms are easily the best form of CC.

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We're only level 7 but so far the dex rogue does 5x the dps of any other class.

Turn 1 = haste and pass

Turn 2 = Wait. Then take two turns in a row. Tactical retreat behind a mob and Backstab 11 times for 60 damage x 2 = 1320 damage. This could actually be even more if you take glass cannon as well.

We can't find any mobs yet that don't die to a rogue on his turn alone, not even the boss mobs on hard difficulty. So yeah, dex based rogue is awesome. I have no idea about archer, but I would imagine that it cannot do this much damage. Attacking twice for 2 AP is pretty broken.


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You are forgetting about the guerilla talent which give a x2 damage when sneaking (sneaking cost 1AP when it's level 5).
So you can multiply your calculation by 2 smile

Also there is a trait i think that increase backstab damage by 20%.

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I don't know about you guys' math and damage math but what grind me a bit is cooldown of rogue skills compared to other "classes".

I'm gonna use my 2 lone wolves as an example.

1)rogue
14 dex
Scoundrel level 5
Expert Marskman level 3

2) wizard
20 int
5 level in water, earth and fire magic

Cloak and Dagger- 6AP to use, 10 turn cooldown vs Tactical Retreat- 4AP, 9 turn cooldown
Charming Touch- 3m range, 6AP, 16(!) turn cooldown vs Rapture- 15m(!), 5AP, 6(!) turn cooldown.
Fast Track- selftarget only, 4AP, 18(!)turn cooldown vs Wildfire (any target) 6AP, 1 (!) turn cooldown.
Eye Gouge- 2.4m range, 4AP, 10 turn cooldown vs Blind- 15m range, 4AP, 1(!) turn cooldown.
Trip- single target, 3m range, 4AP, 10 turn cooldown vs Boulder Bash- AoE, 6AP, 15m range, 1 turn cooldown (!) and way higher damage.

Do you see the problem? Scoundrel skills don't scale that well, be it with level or DEX. Why even use Charming Touch over Rapture when the latter is superior apart from the fact that it does no damage and they use different saving throws?
My wizard has 1 turn cooldown on Immolation, a 13 level skill, while my rogue still has 10, 10 and 12 cooldowns on her starting skills.

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Charm with no cool down would be broken. Also archers have charming arrows to do charm back to back if that's your thing.. charm has no limitations other than enemies that can't be charmed

Immolation is situational. It heals fire based enemies and can't burn enemies immune to burning. In fact, it powers up enemies that benefit from burning. You can't really use it in melee range without hurting yourself (e.g. Even though you are a Mage, melee enemies get into melee range to hurt you,)

That's just 2 examples of how asymmetric a comparison between the two skills are

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Originally Posted by Huyt
You are forgetting about the guerilla talent which give a x2 damage when sneaking (sneaking cost 1AP when it's level 5).
So you can multiply your calculation by 2 smile

Also there is a trait i think that increase backstab damage by 20%.


Oh nice!

I didn't take guerrilla yet because its not worth it, but maybe so, when sneak is 5. Thanks!


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Originally Posted by Scrubwave
I don't know about you guys' math and damage math but what grind me a bit is cooldown of rogue skills compared to other "classes".

I'm gonna use my 2 lone wolves as an example.

1)rogue
14 dex
Scoundrel level 5
Expert Marskman level 3

2) wizard
20 int
5 level in water, earth and fire magic

Cloak and Dagger- 6AP to use, 10 turn cooldown vs Tactical Retreat- 4AP, 9 turn cooldown
Charming Touch- 3m range, 6AP, 16(!) turn cooldown vs Rapture- 15m(!), 5AP, 6(!) turn cooldown.
Fast Track- selftarget only, 4AP, 18(!)turn cooldown vs Wildfire (any target) 6AP, 1 (!) turn cooldown.
Eye Gouge- 2.4m range, 4AP, 10 turn cooldown vs Blind- 15m range, 4AP, 1(!) turn cooldown.
Trip- single target, 3m range, 4AP, 10 turn cooldown vs Boulder Bash- AoE, 6AP, 15m range, 1 turn cooldown (!) and way higher damage.

Do you see the problem? Scoundrel skills don't scale that well, be it with level or DEX. Why even use Charming Touch over Rapture when the latter is superior apart from the fact that it does no damage and they use different saving throws?
My wizard has 1 turn cooldown on Immolation, a 13 level skill, while my rogue still has 10, 10 and 12 cooldowns on her starting skills.



Unfortunately, rogue skills were added late in the beta and probably need to be balanced more.

Finding anything in this game that has low AP cost is going to be overpowered. For wizards its late game with huge INT. For rogue its all game with normal attacks. The devs may change it or the community may mod it.

Last edited by techn0logic; 07/07/14 04:19 PM.
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I don't understand your complain about rogue damage at all to be honest.
I've finished the game with my main character being a rogue lonewolf, and my other one being a knight.

My rogue dealt way more damage than my knight until level 16 or so. Rogues attacks are 2 AP and he has the highest movement. I could walk across the battlefield killing pretty much any monsters in 2 backstab (4ap) and then walk to another target and kill him too in only 1 turn.

My only problem with rogues end game is that daggers damage doesn't scale up nearly as much as every other 1 hand weapon.


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I have absolutely no idea what you guys are all on about. Rogue being as powerful as a Warrior, Rangers being even remotely useful? Are you guys nuts?

I just remade a new game, and leveled a Lone Wolf Warrior + Ranger and a Debuff/Buff focused magician to level 10. I've had a similarly well equipped Rogue before.

Now with a Rogue that has 5 stealth and Guerrilla, I can hit about 350 damage on backstabs from stealth self buffed and 500ish with Oath of Desecration. Then resneak, do it again, as many times as I want. Costs me 1 AP to sneak and 2 AP to attack every time. And this, it's pretty darn good.

With a 2h Warrior though, vs similar targets. I can hit 250-500ish on single targets without Oath of Desecration and 400-800 with Oath. Without stance or Berserker. This costs me 4 AP per hit. But I can also charge in dealing 200-400 damage to every foe in my Path, I can also unleash two AOE's for 400-800 damage in a single round every round for 3 rounds in a row when hasted.

And there's nothing to stop me from investing in sneak on the Warrior either to make it deal double damage from sneak. Allowing me to sneak in to the middle of the group and oneshot a target at the start of combat just as well as any rogue ever could.

So again, I just don't get where this is coming from. 2H warriors especially are just brutally overpowered really. I'd easily go as far as to say that they're better at being sneaky characters then what Rogues are. A rogue can sneak in and kill maybe 1 target per turn and isn't really worth buffing up.

A warrior on the other hand can sneak in, delay turn, get Oath of Desecration + Wildfire from Wizard (because on a warrior it's worth it), kill a target straight from stealth with a Guerilla attack, Battering Ram in to 5 more, kill them all with Dust Devil, go to next turn and get new AP, rush over to another 5 targets and slaughter half of them with a single Whirlwind then resneak.

Last edited by BlackMarch; 08/07/14 09:14 AM.
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The thing about rogues is that if they are sneaking properly, they will *never* get hit. They simply won't be targeted, since enemies don't notice the bush behind them and won't turn around at all unless an attack misses. Of course, things get slightly more complicated when facing big groups of enemies, but that's what Smokescreen is for.

I do agree that the huge cooldowns on their Scoundrel skills that don't lower is a bit unfair though.

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Originally Posted by Huyt
You are forgetting about the guerilla talent which give a x2 damage when sneaking (sneaking cost 1AP when it's level 5).
So you can multiply your calculation by 2 smile

Also there is a trait i think that increase backstab damage by 20%.

The trait is 20% increase of chance to hit, not damages.

There's a characteristic that makes sneaking as fast than walk/run without sneaking, I didn't tried it but wonder if it has any effects in combats.

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Originally Posted by Rhidian
The thing about rogues is that if they are sneaking properly, they will *never* get hit.


Ok, fair enough. How is this different from a 2h Warrior w/ Sneak? Except for the fact that he deals double damage w/ sneak even without Guerilla and also has the ability to sneak in to the middle of a group and wipe out the entire group in 2 AOE hits?

The only advantage said Rogue has is more movement speed, which doesn't really matter because the Warrior can do his strikes from the side while the Rogue needs it to get behind.

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Backstab should be separate from critical.

One of the perks of high perception is high critical chance(according to the manual). A backstabbing rogue feels like he/she is being robbed of something.

Just saying..

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