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Originally Posted by Dwel

This is a distinct lack of understanding towards what motivates people to play games. Some do it for money (e-sports), some do it for fame (achievements, speed-runs, e-sports again).

Right. But when money and fame are your motivations, you aren't playing single player, non-competitive. Well, I'll accept that I'm wrong in the case of speed runs and the like, but those sorts of things are - as I had mentioned previously - player-instigated challenges. You're comparing apples to oranges, and so your point doesn't really contradict mine at all. So, I suppose, thank you for agreeing, sort of?

Originally Posted by Dwel

I believe it to be ignorant to consider something like this.
I don't mind you disagreeing, but the way you wrote that sentence is downright funny. However, as to the points from that paragraph, I can't agree with you on any of them except that - obviously - people have different preferences. Without an AI that can be as unpredictable and imaginative as a human opponent, single player is essentially a way to (for games with such tactical options) test out various tactics against an opponent that can be reliably expected to perform in a certain way. That there is no substitute for authentic practice is absolutely correct, and being good at the single-player campaign for Starcraft in no way prepared me for the intense butt-whooping delivered to me by real players; so to get good at *competitive* Starcraft I would have had to practice in MP. But just to get practice dealing with the game mechanics, to see the story written for we players, and to have fun? Single-player, all day.

Originally Posted by Dwel

Most cheat codes are built into the game during development in order to aid the developers in testing mechanics and features without wasting a lot of time (debugging). That they are left in is a service to players, but I have a hard time looking at them as a valid option of play (especially since they're almost never advertised within the game).

Sure, but disabling them is *trivially* easy. Depending on what language you're writing the code for (and a whole lot of games are still written in C or C++ or one of the direct variants) it's often as simple as !, #, or ## at the start of a line to comment it out. That such things are not removed is in fact a conscious business decision these days (I understand that 10, 15 years ago it was sometimes just the work of mischievous programmers/devs).

Originally Posted by Dwel

Having one choice that is clearly superior to anything else breaks the balance of the game. Why would the player choose an inferior tool? Why would he act in a masochistic manner?
...
Singleplayer games need to be balanced in a way that it is fair towards the player, and in a way that it can challenge them from start to finish. The level of challenge is of course decided by the developers at the start, together with the intended audience.


I'm not surprised this came up. Firstly, as to why someone would deliberately choose an inferior tool, see what I said about XCOM and Jagged Alliance. Sometimes you just want to overcome something that's downright mean. As to the second, which goes back to the whole point I made from the beginning, the developers should design a generally acceptable difficulty setting, but it is absolutely up to the player in a game with as many options and choices as D:OS to fine-tune that difficulty. And it is essentially unfair - and intensely egotistical and conceited - to put forth an argument that says "I don't like this, so don't let anyone else do it because I don't want to." That's the whole point, and what nearly everyone who criticised me failed to understand.

I like the idea of giving Comeback Kid a cooldown. I'd like the idea even more of Leech only healing you at the end of the turn, so that multi-hit attacks can overcome Comeback Kid easily. And if the two of them are sufficiently changed, I'll even give one of my characters those traits and see how it goes. But I'm not selfish enough to say "this is so powerful that nobody should use it." I just decided that it was too powerful for me to use. Not hard at all.

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Originally Posted by Tyhan

The bullshit is strong. Short of a fluke where you managed to start with a 100 psi strength soldier who also had amazing stats you would lose every single mission against mind control. Since you can't see psi strength until you capture a psi enabled alien...

I'm sorry that you've failed to do that, if you wished. The mechanics of the original game are straightforward, and there's no overt shenanigans like in TFTD. Be patient in the combats, don't bring any weapons that you will kill yourself with when you get terrified, and be prepared to lose a lot of fights and start again with a fresh soldier. It's doable. My limit wasn't imposed on number of interceptors, or on tanks for base defense. Just for offense missions. You can't afford to make a single mistake, but you can win it. Well, maybe; I did.

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Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy
No, I'm not. There's a fundamental difference in what you're suggesting and what I am. You say two talents in combination are too powerful, and your suggestion to fix it is to patch it out of the game, removing the ability of anyone to use it. "I don't want it, so don't let anyone else use it." I submit that the more appropriate fix is "I don't want it, so I won't use it." What I'm doing, in fact, is arguing *in favor of anyone with a different opinion than yours* to allow them to continue using one or both of those talents. It's entirely constructive, even if it's not what you want to hear/read.


Yes, it was my suggestion and that's all. I'd rather want them fixed or replaced by something else (like two handed weapon bonus which is absent in talents). What you're doing is nothing, but defending a possible bug. This is not constructive at all. You took my suggestion as an order which leads to misunderstanding.

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It's actually quite easy. I've been playing turn-based strategy games for 25 or 30 years, depending on how you define early-genre games like Archon or M.U.L.E. on the Commodore64. I'd never suggest that someone design a TBS so that I'm challenged by it; I just impose my own challenges. Similarly, I'd never suggest that a TBS that's too hard for me be toned down; I just drop the difficulty setting. Why is this such an offensive idea to you?


I find your arguing strange. You said it's actually quite easy game, but same time you were defending combo which made it like that (or would make it even easier if you're not using this "cheat" currently). Try fighting with 2,3+ levels above you, so it won't be easy. This is what I do. Furthermore, even in equal fights it's still harder than Skyrim or other console like games. I've been playing Laser Squad, East vs South on C64 and dozens of other turn based games, so I know quite a lot about them.

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English probably isn't your native language, so I'm not taking offense from your wording. I couldn't have this conversation with you in...what? Polish? Russian? Pawel seems an appropriate name for that. So please understand when I tell you this: you've misunderstood what I wrote.


Yes, you're right about my language. However, I was according to "balance" which isn't important in your opinion. This is plain wrong. It's very important in SP and that's why developers make many tunables in games like F:NV, NWN and so on. It makes games more fun to play.

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I don't need any TBS to be easier, but the OP wants to take away powerful tools from the game just because he doesn't want to use them, when not using is - literally - as simple as using a toggle. Don't toggle on (select) both of those talents. The argument "if something is OP don't use it" is absolutely valid. Did you really think that in a game as wildly permissive as D:OS that the only difficulty adjustment was a global switch? That's not imaginative at all.


Like I said before I just suggested to remove them. They're broken and it's just one of options developers should take into account. Your argument: "if something is OP don't use it" is completely wrong. I wasn't aware of this "bug" and I noticed it after hour or more, so don't want to roll back to previous saves. I want to be able to use all of the options without turning the GOD MODE on. If someone wants to cheat he should type: godmode 1 or something like that. I hope you understand such simple thing.

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Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy
I'm sorry that you've failed to do that, if you wished. The mechanics of the original game are straightforward, and there's no overt shenanigans like in TFTD. Be patient in the combats, don't bring any weapons that you will kill yourself with when you get terrified, and be prepared to lose a lot of fights and start again with a fresh soldier. It's doable. My limit wasn't imposed on number of interceptors, or on tanks for base defense. Just for offense missions. You can't afford to make a single mistake, but you can win it. Well, maybe; I did.


All one needs to know is that aliens do not require sight for mind control, and all of your soldiers mind controlled = you lose the mission.

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Why are you guys arguing with someone who says a single player game doesn't need balance..?

From that point on I was ignoring everything else he said and wish I could do so retroactively as well.

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Originally Posted by Tyhan

All one needs to know is that aliens do not require sight for mind control, and all of your soldiers mind controlled = you lose the mission.

If you know that much about XCOM you also know that morale does not require line of sight either. Since you only have to plan on fighting Ethereals two times, and can abort every other Ethereal mission, with two exceptions the only time you fight psionics is when you're fighting aliens with such low morale that a single HE rocket, taking out two or three (and Sectoids can almost never survive even at the outside edge of an HE rocket), will panic almost all the remaining aliens. And they can't mind control you until they've recovered and then taken your morale down first.

Try it. Load up a game of XCOM and see what happens on a Sectoid mission when you lead with an HE rocket, or a blaster bomb if you've gotten that far. Everything else just falls into place.

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Originally Posted by Tyhan
Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy
I've beaten the original XCOM (UFO Unknown) on Superhuman with a single soldier


The bullshit is strong. Short of a fluke where you managed to start with a 100 psi strength soldier who also had amazing stats you would lose every single mission against mind control. Since you can't see psi strength until you capture a psi enabled alien...


And he'd be strangulated by the first stealth aliens too since you can't make a respirator without first having an autopsy. If he played enemy within he would never complete any hacking ops without at least 2, which I already highly doubt. Also wouldn't have enough turns to save everyone in Terror Missions.

Last edited by Kurochi; 07/07/14 02:01 AM.
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