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Originally Posted by Daegon
but I believe a decent improvement on the current implementation would be to at least have guaranteed quality drops from boss kills etc.


See, that one I have a problem with. When everything is guaranteed, there is no point. why bother with the system at all? Why not just get rid of collecting gear? Greatly simplify the system so people don't have to worry about not getting something of value at every turn? That is the problem and that defies the point of this style of gaming.

You are developing a character. Character development is a key mechanic to RPGs. It is the entire point of its play. Story exists in many types of genres, but it is your development within that story to which is the game. That is the point of a cRPG, to develop a role within a story. The story is the road, the development is the vehicle.

So, the process of success and failure in gear reward is important. Also note that in this game, there is no set path to which is required. You can play the game as you see fit, according to your own design, your own needs, your own expectations.

So, one not need be guaranteed a certain level of reward for each encounter. You could have came late, caught the pirate crew the day after they blew all the their recent booty on women and wine.

It is the expectation that there be some dramatic reward for every action in a game that has led to games being boring and bland. I am not saying the rewards should be bland, I am saying that the rewards should not be guaranteed. In life there is no guarantees. There are failures, let downs, etc...

Those looking to have sunshine and rainbows on every encounter, well... they should look into My Little Pony games.

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Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by Daegon
but I believe a decent improvement on the current implementation would be to at least have guaranteed quality drops from boss kills etc.


See, that one I have a problem with. When everything is guaranteed, there is no point. why bother with the system at all?

Gee, I thought the whole point of a proper balance between risk and reward is to be properly compensated with rewards based on the amount of risk involved (and for the level of risk to equal the quality of the rewards). You know.. because that's good game design balance.

Now, if you still think it's acceptable for a boss fight to reward one player with two legendary items while the same boss fight yields a potion and non-magic armor to another player, then the only thing truly pointless here is listening to anything you have to say in this discussion.

By the way, this is a game for entertainment, not real life. So maybe you can lay off the "in life there are no guarantees" examples? Because that's just a really stupid argument to be throwing out there for what should be obvious reasons, and yet you keep on using it..

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Yes... defeating the boss and advancing the game can be it's own reward.

Why do gamers need their "good job" pet on top of that in the form of 'awesome loot or it's a waste of time'... what?

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Gee, I thought the whole point of a proper balance between risk and reward is to be properly compensated with rewards based on the amount of risk involved (and for the level of risk to equal the quality of the rewards). You know.. because that's good game design balance.


There is no standard for such. That idea came around during MMOs where people demanding they get a tit/tat reward for all the excessive grinding they did in their gaming.



Originally Posted by Gyson

Now, if you still think it's acceptable for a boss fight to reward one player with two legendary items while the same boss fight yields a potion and non-magic armor to another player, then the only thing truly pointless here is listening to anything you have to say in this discussion.


I think the reward of gaming is solid game mechanics and challenges of play, not shiny loot. Again, you seem to be arguing MMO design goals.


Originally Posted by Gyson

By the way, this is a game for entertainment, not real life. So maybe you can lay off the "in life there are no guarantees" examples? Because that's just a really stupid argument to be throwing out there for what should be obvious reasons, and yet you keep on using it..


Brilliant Mr. Wizard, so define what entertainment is? You going to be so pretentious as to claim you know what everyone finds entertaining? How about we drop the completely useless definition of what a game is and use a more practical one, shall we?

A game is a contest of rules where the results are determined by skill, strength or chance. A game can be entertaining or a form of entertainment for some, but a game itself is not specifically entertainment. You having fun in a game is entirely subjective.

There is no sane way to make a game fun for everyone because you can not design the rules and obstacles to fit every ones idea of what fun is.

An RPG is about role development systems within a given story. The goal is to develop that character and navigate them through a series of obstacles and challenges within that story.

Since this is a GAME and the goal is to play a game, then obviously the idea is to create situations where there is a chance for failure. A game without contest, rules to delineate success and failure is not a game, it is just an exercise in function.

So again, since we are playing a game, it seems that attending to the mechanics of play rather than trying to massage peoples egos or helping them to deal with their low self esteem, that we would emulate many aspects of life which also is filled with obstacles that provide success and failure to which the dedication and persistence to accomplishing a goal often gives people enjoyment. That is, those who enjoy playing games.

Though you seem to be arguing not for a game, but rather a generic entertainment simulator. My suggestion, open up a brothel, it fits your idea of what gaming is more accurately. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Yes... defeating the boss and advancing the game can be it's own reward.

Why do gamers need their "good job" pet on top of that in the form of 'awesome loot or it's a waste of time'... what?


I blame it on a degrading society of over nurtured children. It is the society of "participation trophies" that have resulted in the belief that without enormous praise and prizes, then something is not worthy of effort. The concept of "a hard days work is its own reward" is completely alien to them.

Here is the funny thing though. The most pivotal encounters in a game, the final encounter, the last fight or culmination of all the effort in a game... provides no loot of any real value (ie you can't use it for anything, the game is over, the reward might as well be a note that says "thanks for playing!).

I guess they shouldn't bother with the last fights in these games, you know... its all risk, no reward, not worth playing. *chuckle*

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Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by Gyson

Gee, I thought the whole point of a proper balance between risk and reward is to be properly compensated with rewards based on the amount of risk involved (and for the level of risk to equal the quality of the rewards). You know.. because that's good game design balance.


There is no standard for such. That idea came around during MMOs where people demanding they get a tit/tat reward for all the excessive grinding they did in their gaming.



Originally Posted by Gyson

Now, if you still think it's acceptable for a boss fight to reward one player with two legendary items while the same boss fight yields a potion and non-magic armor to another player, then the only thing truly pointless here is listening to anything you have to say in this discussion.


I think the reward of gaming is solid game mechanics and challenges of play, not shiny loot. Again, you seem to be arguing MMO design goals.


Originally Posted by Gyson

By the way, this is a game for entertainment, not real life. So maybe you can lay off the "in life there are no guarantees" examples? Because that's just a really stupid argument to be throwing out there for what should be obvious reasons, and yet you keep on using it..


Brilliant Mr. Wizard, so define what entertainment is? You going to be so pretentious as to claim you know what everyone finds entertaining? How about we drop the completely useless definition of what a game is and use a more practical one, shall we?

A game is a contest of rules where the results are determined by skill, strength or chance. A game can be entertaining or a form of entertainment for some, but a game itself is not specifically entertainment. You having fun in a game is entirely subjective.

There is no sane way to make a game fun for everyone because you can not design the rules and obstacles to fit every ones idea of what fun is.

An RPG is about role development systems within a given story. The goal is to develop that character and navigate them through a series of obstacles and challenges within that story.

Since this is a GAME and the goal is to play a game, then obviously the idea is to create situations where there is a chance for failure. A game without contest, rules to delineate success and failure is not a game, it is just an exercise in function.

So again, since we are playing a game, it seems that attending to the mechanics of play rather than trying to massage peoples egos or helping them to deal with their low self esteem, that we would emulate many aspects of life which also is filled with obstacles that provide success and failure to which the dedication and persistence to accomplishing a goal often gives people enjoyment. That is, those who enjoy playing games.

Though you seem to be arguing not for a game, but rather a generic entertainment simulator. My suggestion, open up a brothel, it fits your idea of what gaming is more accurately. /shrug



Well said and correctly spoken.

I wouldn't agree that a brothel would serve as a best example for that purpose since, brothels are difficult to organize, manage and maintain with very variable consequences as outcomes, which do include STDs and jail time, if not direct violence... and you do have to pay for it, one way or the other.

but im sure all get the gist of it.


I would say that above is a pretty good explanation of the basic demarcation between two worlds. The one of the mass market drones - more or less mindless consumerism and its never ending hunger for quick, cheap ego satisfaction and base impulses rewards that ego is so dependent upon.

And the other side, where people try to reach for more, expect more and understand more.
This side is often characterized by creativity, cooperation and expectations of works of art (which games can be and sometimes are, although that does not mean "pretty" really... as all drones would think) that reach more then just supply quick, repetitious satisfaction of base impulses.


Our fault and greatest mistake is that we are also inclusive, forgiving, well meaning - which results in our acceptance and forgiveness of drones mentality and behavior, ... the current extreme "liberal" general public opinion comes down under this, ...
and so we allow them to destroy everything.

Im not saying we should go for some kind of extreme final solution, no. Thats the simpleton mentality and it always was. You cant be only completely closed or completely open. That is just extreme binary solution that always fails and is much closer to drone mentality and psychology then "ours".

I am saying we should draw some lines.
that the devil is in the details more then in extreme binary solutions.

But some lines must be drawn.

For starters.



- yes, yes, some will thinks taking things this "far" is strange or funny. Others will simply nod as if i said the sky is blue.



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Originally Posted by Tanist

There is no standard for such. That idea came around during MMOs where people demanding they get a tit/tat reward for all the excessive grinding they did in their gaming.


This statement is simply not true. Boss fights and challenges have been rewarding player accomplishments with items for a very, very long time. The idea's been in Baldur's Gate, Ultima, Wizardry, Final Fantasy, game series that predated MMOs. And it's been in tabeltops before there were video games. Kill the dragon, get its horde. It's an idea as old as gaming. It's an idea as old as capitalism. Hell, it's an idea as old as *fairness*. People want something to show for their effort.


Quote

I think the reward of gaming is solid game mechanics and challenges of play, not shiny loot. Again, you seem to be arguing MMO design goals.

This would be a little more valid if A) This, as state before, isn't a concept inherent to MMOs, and B) Good equipment load out wasn't an integral part of the game. Equipment is necessary for a balanced and capable party, which means without a good loot system this game's mechanics aren't as solid as they could be.


Originally Posted by Tanist

I blame it on a degrading society of over nurtured children. It is the society of "participation trophies" that have resulted in the belief that without enormous praise and prizes, then something is not worthy of effort. The concept of "a hard days work is its own reward" is completely alien to them.


You don't seem to understand what a "participation trophy" is. A participation trophy is something you give players something for showing up and taking part. That would be the equivalent of giving the player loot or experience for loading up the game.

No one's arguing for that. What we want are rewards for actually, y'know, succeeding. Beating the boss, finding the secret, investing time and energy and thought into a task and being compensated for their efforts. And why shouldn't the winning team get trophies? Why shouldn't someone get paid for putting in a hard day's work. A hard day's work is its own reward? I'm sorry, but that's asinine elitism. You can keep that brand of masochism for yourself, because you will find very few supporters here or in the real world. Every good game offers rewards to its players. In early platformers it's a simple "congratulations" and a small ending sequence. In RPGs with loot systems, there's loot.

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There's a difference between "kill dragon, get his hoard" and "kill dragon, get an item drop that's specifically tailered to suit your character cause we can't have a drop that might be more suitable for other types of builds" though.

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Originally Posted by Zozma

This statement is simply not true. Boss fights and challenges have been rewarding player accomplishments with items for a very, very long time. The idea's been in Baldur's Gate, Ultima, Wizardry, Final Fantasy, game series that predated MMOs. And it's been in tabeltops before there were video games. Kill the dragon, get its horde. It's an idea as old as gaming. It's an idea as old as capitalism. Hell, it's an idea as old as *fairness*. People want something to show for their effort.


Getting a reward, yes, but it is the drama of tit/tat risk/reward that is an MMO staple. There is no standard for such in gaming in general to the level that MMOs antagonize over.


Originally Posted by Zozma

This would be a little more valid if A) This, as state before, isn't a concept inherent to MMOs, and B) Good equipment load out wasn't an integral part of the game. Equipment is necessary for a balanced and capable party, which means without a good loot system this game's mechanics aren't as solid as they could be.


It is a common aspect of MMOs, a design focus and goal and a much lamented aspect of their design. You can argue some games and people attended to such, but it wasn't a standard, a staple of design as it is today. Loot-centric gaming is specific to that timeline of games.



Originally Posted by Zozma

You don't seem to understand what a "participation trophy" is. A participation trophy is something you give players something for showing up and taking part. That would be the equivalent of giving the player loot or experience for loading up the game.


Look at the arguments. They want loot to be tailored to their character, always useful to their makeup. They think because they showed up, they deserve a prize. Yes, expecting to be rewarded for every encounter, for every step of play, as you think you deserve is... that mentality. The reward for applying effort to beat an encounter is not a reward, they want something shiny, because shiny is their focus, they have to have their trophy for just being or it isn't worth the effort to them. It is that mentality, that focus, that goal which has resulted in games that are all flashy gimmicks with lots of rewards, little challenge, little effort required.



Originally Posted by Zozma

No one's arguing for that. What we want are rewards for actually, y'know, succeeding. Beating the boss, finding the secret, investing time and energy and thought into a task and being compensated for their efforts. And why shouldn't the winning team get trophies? Why shouldn't someone get paid for putting in a hard day's work. A hard day's work is its own reward? I'm sorry, but that's asinine elitism. You can keep that brand of masochism for yourself, because you will find very few supporters here or in the real world. Every good game offers rewards to its players. In early platformers it's a simple "congratulations" and a small ending sequence. In RPGs with loot systems, there's loot.


As I said, the concept of "A hard days work is its own reward." is an alien concept. The reward is the game play, the effort, the failure and eventual success. It is the "all about loot" focus of this generation which has led to the decline of games as they sacrifice game play for cheap shiny trinkets. Loot focused play and design is a staple of MMO games, one of the most popular genres in the past decade. It isn't a surprise its design goals are favored by mainstream.

Edit:

Note I am not arguing that loot should not exist. I am making the point that loot is not the main focus, that the arguments here that loot should be balanced for everyone in the party and for every event of an equal proportion, etc...

That misses the entire point of RPG gaming.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
There's a difference between "kill dragon, get his hoard" and "kill dragon, get an item drop that's specifically tailered to suit your character cause we can't have a drop that might be more suitable for other types of builds" though.


Yep, also the "dragon hoard" was a list of numerous items to which the GM rolled a dice to see what items were present. Though these are the little things people forget about gaming systems.

Can you imagine how the loot tables would be in the back of the module if the games were all about this proclaimed "tailored" focus? Instead of a D-100 roll out of a table of items, it would be a decision tree of: Is party member a warrior (yes/no), is the warrior a single handed or dual wielding (yes/no), is the warriors alignment (good/evil/etc....), is the warriors... etc.. etc...

/facepalm

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/sarc on

Hello, my name is Ted.

I want to discuss a problem I have with games and how I think they can be made more fair so people can have fun playing a game. After all, isn't a game all about having fun and everyone should be able to have fun all the time when they are playing a game!

My problem with gaming systems is that I make a party that I want to play and I tailor that party specifically to my style only to run into severe issues later in the game. My problem is, when I run into an encounter, that encounter is not tailored to fit my style of play. It doesn't consider how I designed my party and the manner in which I want it to be effective. I think in order to achieve "fun" in play, my time shouldn't be wasted with having the chance of encounters that will cause my party extreme difficulty.

So, my solution is to have the game look at my party makeup when I start the game and then design every encounter in a way that allows my party to be ideal for the encounter. This way, I am able to enjoy the style of play that I like according to exactly how I like to play the game. Again, games are about fun and entertainment, not situations where I may get frustrated due to the choices I may make or the results of chance within the game. Chance should not exist, everything should be designed to maximize my fun.

So if you would please put in such a tailoring system soon, I would much appreciate it Larian.

Thank you,

Ted

/sarc off

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Kill the dragon, get its horde. It's an idea as old as gaming. It's an idea as old as capitalism. Hell, it's an idea as old as *fairness*. People want something to show for their effort.


The starting argument was that killing the final boss and getting the loot is pointless since the game is over.

As for any relatively minor bosses loot and questions about loot rewards in general:

If you go down that road then getting the loot becomes the primary purpose of playing. Then that purpose distorts the whole game because every other feature becomes secondary.

The mindless, unspecified, general nonsensical notion of "fun" and "entertainment" becomes the holy law and everything that may bother that cheap, superficial feeling is deemed an enemy of that "fun" - and then you have screaming hordes from body snatchers taking over.

- Current state of civilization popular culture, btw. And it would be the state of the whole civilization if it wasnt for individuals resisting.




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Originally Posted by Tanist

Getting a reward, yes, but it is the drama of tit/tat risk/reward that is an MMO staple. There is no standard for such in gaming in general to the level that MMOs antagonize over.

It is a common aspect of MMOs, a design focus and goal and a much lamented aspect of their design. You can argue some games and people attended to such, but it wasn't a standard, a staple of design as it is today. Loot-centric gaming is specific to that timeline of games.


The thing is, the loot system as it is *is* set up quite a lot like the MMORPGs I've played. Last time I played Champions there were quests that didn't give rewards, long raids that gave you nothing, and long stretches where you were using underleveled items. That's sort of how D:OS is working right now. In fact, I'd argue that the randomness and frequency and importance of loot drops in D:OS makes it loot-centric by its very nature, in the same vein as Diablo, albeit without the grind.


Quote

Look at the arguments. They want loot to be tailored to their character, always useful to their makeup. They think because they showed up, they deserve a prize. Yes, expecting to be rewarded for every encounter, for every step of play, as you think you deserve is... that mentality. The reward for applying effort to beat an encounter is not a reward, they want something shiny, because shiny is their focus, they have to have their trophy for just being or it isn't worth the effort to them. It is that mentality, that focus, that goal which has resulted in games that are all flashy gimmicks with lots of rewards, little challenge, little effort required.

As I said, the concept of "A hard days work is its own reward." is an alien concept. The reward is the game play, the effort, the failure and eventual success. It is the "all about loot" focus of this generation which has led to the decline of games as they sacrifice game play for cheap shiny trinkets. Loot focused play and design is a staple of MMO games, one of the most popular genres in the past decade. It isn't a surprise its design goals are favored by mainstream.

Edit:

Note I am not arguing that loot should not exist. I am making the point that loot is not the main focus, that the arguments here that loot should be balanced for everyone in the party and for every event of an equal proportion, etc...

That misses the entire point of RPG gaming.


There's a lot of middle ground here, and this thread is a lot of people coming at the issue with varying degrees of extremism. I agree that a loot system that caters exactly to the player's every need is ultimately unrewarding. I also think that the loot system as it is is very flawed. There's an ideological middle ground somewhere here that I think we could find that would be satisfying to most players.

Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
There's a difference between "kill dragon, get his hoard" and "kill dragon, get an item drop that's specifically tailered to suit your character cause we can't have a drop that might be more suitable for other types of builds" though.


Yep, also the "dragon hoard" was a list of numerous items to which the GM rolled a dice to see what items were present. Though these are the little things people forget about gaming systems.

Can you imagine how the loot tables would be in the back of the module if the games were all about this proclaimed "tailored" focus? Instead of a D-100 roll out of a table of items, it would be a decision tree of: Is party member a warrior (yes/no), is the warrior a single handed or dual wielding (yes/no), is the warriors alignment (good/evil/etc....), is the warriors... etc.. etc...

/facepalm


Actually, in my experience GMs either don't use the loot systems present in the manuals, made up classless item, or make sure that there's an item or two the character can actually use available for purchase. I've never had a GM who neglected players on the principle of chance.

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Originally Posted by Hiver
If you go down that road then getting the loot becomes the primary purpose of playing. Then that purpose distorts the whole game because every other feature becomes secondary.

That's what MMO's and games like Diablo are build on yes.

And that's okay... people who like that, they get their fill.
But that doesn't mean it has to be inserted in an ACTUAL RPG, and thereby destroying the fundamentals of what makes a RPG a RPG rather than one of those lootgames.

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Originally Posted by Zozma

The thing is, the loot system as it is *is* set up quite a lot like the MMORPGs I've played. Last time I played Champions there were quests that didn't give rewards, long raids that gave you nothing, and long stretches where you were using underleveled items. That's sort of how D:OS is working right now. In fact, I'd argue that the randomness and frequency and importance of loot drops in D:OS makes it loot-centric by its very nature, in the same vein as Diablo, albeit without the grind.


Well, the mold is WoW when it comes to what I am talking about as eventually all games seem to be crushed by its ridiculous design focus, though EQ suffered the same problem even before WoW was released.

As I said, I am not saying loot should be non-existent, but it isn't the driving point of an RPG. Sure, Diablo, it is the focus, but then Diablo really isn't an RPG as much as it is Gauntlet with some stats. Diablo is almost entirely about the loot. While the Divinity games use random loot generation as a tool, it was the entire focus of design for a game like Diablo. You ground the dungeons over and over to see all the different loot you could get.

D:OS isn't about the loot, it is about the mechanics of play, the story, the interaction.



Originally Posted by Zozma

There's a lot of middle ground here, and this thread is a lot of people coming at the issue with varying degrees of extremism. I agree that a loot system that caters exactly to the player's every need is ultimately unrewarding. I also think that the loot system as it is is very flawed. There's an ideological middle ground somewhere here that I think we could find that would be satisfying to most players.



There is no middle ground on some issues. Either loot is tailored to the party, or it is not. That is the main argument here. Drop rates, etc.. are arguments used to generate support for their position, but it is not their suggestions, tailored loot is.



Originally Posted by Zozma

Actually, in my experience GMs either don't use the loot systems present in the manuals, made up classless item, or make sure that there's an item or two the character can actually use available for purchase. I've never had a GM who neglected players on the principle of chance.


That is an example outside of the scope of the games play and design. I am not saying it is wrong, but using an outlier as a means to establish a trend isn't a very sound argument.

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Originally Posted by Tanist
[quote=Zozma]
Well, the mold is WoW when it comes to what I am talking about as eventually all games seem to be crushed by its ridiculous design focus, though EQ suffered the same problem even before WoW was released.

As I said, I am not saying loot should be non-existent, but it isn't the driving point of an RPG. Sure, Diablo, it is the focus, but then Diablo really isn't an RPG as much as it is Gauntlet with some stats. Diablo is almost entirely about the loot. While the Divinity games use random loot generation as a tool, it was the entire focus of design for a game like Diablo. You ground the dungeons over and over to see all the different loot you could get.

D:OS isn't about the loot, it is about the mechanics of play, the story, the interaction.


I agree, but the way the game is set up makes loot more important. Your capacity to function at every level of gameplay, be it dialogue or combat, is influenced by loot to varying degrees. Loot increases charisma, crafting, damage output, damage intake, spell functionality, health, mobility, and so on. The game was designed to be challenging, and because your characters' combat functionality is heavily influenced by equipment, the game expects you to put more focus on loot than you might otherwise like to.

What I'm advocating for is a system that minimizes the amount of time you spend focusing on loot and thereby increases the time you spend on core aspects of the game. This can be done in a variety of ways, including hybrid systems that simultaneously appeal to gamers who want more dice in their rolls while addressing the game's demand to have good, up-to-level equipment.

Originally Posted by Zozma

There is no middle ground on some issues. Either loot is tailored to the party, or it is not. That is the main argument here. Drop rates, etc.. are arguments used to generate support for their position, but it is not their suggestions, tailored loot is.


There absolutely is a middle ground. Tailored loot can coexist with a degree of randomness. In fact, it already does; enemies tend to drop items in their level category. The game also has a hybrid of static loot and random drops, albeit with a strong lean to the latter. Absolutist thinking only leads to dogmatism. These are spectrums, and in some cases it only takes a slight lean in order to appease a player base.

Quote

That is an example outside of the scope of the games play and design. I am not saying it is wrong, but using an outlier as a means to establish a trend isn't a very sound argument.


The trend in table tops, as far as I've observed, is to use game play and design as a template rather than hard and fast rules. But given that both of us only have our own experience with GMs and there's hardly a census or a study on how they typically handle loot systems, I agree that this isn't a productive area of discussion and may as well be dropped.

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I already answered the "dilemma" of finding gear that suits your level and style and how it's actually not necessary as long as solutions exist. They may not be the solutions YOU want or like, but they're solutions, they let you get past obstacles and hence the problem is that there is no problem to address. And that is because loot is not very relevant in the grand scheme and focus of this particular game's positioning within its own genre.

Now, if only people read before posting a reply.


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Originally Posted by Zozma

I agree, but the way the game is set up makes loot more important. Your capacity to function at every level of gameplay, be it dialogue or combat, is influenced by loot to varying degrees. Loot increases charisma, crafting, damage output, damage intake, spell functionality, health, mobility, and so on. The game was designed to be challenging, and because your characters' combat functionality is heavily influenced by equipment, the game expects you to put more focus on loot than you might otherwise like to.


Loot is a tool, not the focus. Tactical play is the focus. I cans strip off all of my gear and still win a battle without my gear by using sound tactics to a given situation (which reminds me, I need to do a long play naked sometime to make my point). There is no such thing as gear checks in this game. Again, you are arguing the concept of an MMORPG whether you are meaning to or not.




Originally Posted by Zozma

What I'm advocating for is a system that minimizes the amount of time you spend focusing on loot and thereby increases the time you spend on core aspects of the game. This can be done in a variety of ways, including hybrid systems that simultaneously appeal to gamers who want more dice in their rolls while addressing the game's demand to have good, up-to-level equipment.


loot is not the focus of the game, but it is a component of character development. I think you put far too much weight on it being responsible for successful play. If this were a 100% skill based game where the skills were directly connected to gear acquisition, you might have an argument. The system however is not designed that way. Gear can make things easier, but gear is not required to be good in order to succeed. I have been playing on hard and none of the fights do I find gear being the reason I win. My friend and I took out some of the level 6 orcs when we just got to town, still level 2, and before we picked up any gear. Gear helps a lot if you get some nice things, but it is not the focus.




Originally Posted by Zozma

There absolutely is a middle ground. Tailored loot can coexist with a degree of randomness. In fact, it already does; enemies tend to drop items in their level category. The game also has a hybrid of static loot and random drops, albeit with a strong lean to the latter. Absolutist thinking only leads to dogmatism. These are spectrums, and in some cases it only takes a slight lean in order to appease a player base.


Um... that is one side getting its way. You just described tailored loot. Tailored loot is not random, it is tailored loot. If you have "tailored loot with a degree of randomness", then you have provided me tailored loot, not random loot.



Originally Posted by Zozma

The trend in table tops, as far as I've observed, is to use game play and design as a template rather than hard and fast rules. But given that both of us only have our own experience with GMs and there's hardly a census or a study on how they typically handle loot systems, I agree that this isn't a productive area of discussion and may as well be dropped.


D&D started with the fast and loose concept. Gygax then created AD&D which was a specific rule system of play. If you are playing PnP making up everything as you go, well... that is fine, but it isn't a sound argument against the point I was making.

You don't want to get me started on the PnP systems of today. I find them as lazy and disorganized as I do mainstream gaming. I am not saying they should not exist, but I find them to be so subjective as it concerns this discussion to be useless to any logical or practical means.

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This game really is not about loot. The random loot in the game is something I personally really like - NOT because it resembles the way loot is handled in loot-centric games (such as Diablo) but because it adds an element of surprise and fun to the game. And, most importantly, depending on how much a player values the quality of loot he gets, it adds greatly to the replayability.

There are various 'Unique' items in the loot tables that will not drop for you on every playthrough. But these items NEVER serve to 'tailor to specific builds' and they never should. For these unique, named drops, the item ITSELF should define the playstyle. That is what itemization is about.

This combination of Unique drops and a random loot table that is almost always spot-on in terms of Item Levels (the most general way to determine loot can be used or not) = creature levels, makes the way loot is handled 'complete' to me. I don't want tailored loot in this game and repeatable encounters would destroy the balance of all content played thereafter (additional XP that was not factored in, combined with perfectly minmaxed characters). The game does not change a whole lot with great gear - the basis and the character development is way too solid for that. It is quite apparent in many aspects of the game that the game is not loot-centric, and even if you don't like the randomness, you can work around that by making a 'loot save' before the last hit on a boss. All you need to do is hit F5.

TL:DR? 'I rest my case' in regards to loot. Things are fine as is and loot tables don't make or break this game, and never will.

Last edited by Vayra; 09/07/14 03:56 PM.

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What should be looked at, however, are the itemizations. When legendary staves grant Dex and axes give Int, there are problems. Even boss and chest loot has issues, I've seen bosses drop junk that nobody in my party uses, to the point that Jahan and Roderick are still sporting low-level robes and staves, Scarlett's dagger and gear have gone as far as five levels without seeing an upgrade, and only Madora has consistently enjoyed dropped gear upgrades. The exception seems to be neck items, I keep getting +Int ones.

Mages, strangely enough, suffer from gear issues twofold. Melee combatants can craft and enhance their own gear at least, but mages don't have that boon; they can't make robes nor enhance staves with mage-beneficial enchantments, they don't have tenebrium boosts and high-level spells have issues that were pointed out in another thread.

Unique loot also has another issue: there are no unique armors I've seen so far. At all.

Last edited by LordofBones; 09/07/14 04:34 PM.
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