Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 8 of 10 1 2 6 7 8 9 10
Joined: Mar 2013
T
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
T
Joined: Mar 2013
Originally Posted by LordofBones
What should be looked at, however, are the itemizations. When legendary staves grant Dex and axes give Int, there are problems.


Why? You can build an int/dex based class. You can have a str/int based class. Now you can certainly argue whether you think that is efficient or the maximized approach to play the game, but... well now we are getting into telling people they are playing wrong. /shrug

Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by LordofBones
What should be looked at, however, are the itemizations. When legendary staves grant Dex and axes give Int, there are problems.


Why? You can build an int/dex based class. You can have a str/int based class. Now you can certainly argue whether you think that is efficient or the maximized approach to play the game, but... well now we are getting into telling people they are playing wrong. /shrug


Because almost all Dex based damage skills are dagger and marksman based, require you to be in melee range and you can't backstab with a staff, so that Dex bonus is useless. Staff damage scales off Strength, but you're not going to use staves to attack in melee unless you're really desperate, and staves require Int to equip. That Dex is basically eating valuable itemization points, I can't think of any reason why a ranger or rogue or shadowblade would go around with a staff when almost all their offensive skills are based on bows and daggers.

I can understand Staves with Str, since staves can be wielded in melee (but you can't enhance or upgrade them, so....), but itemization otherwise needs to be reviewed properly. Affixes and suffixes need to make sense for the weapons in question; you're almost never going to go for melee attacks with a staff, so a lot of those status debuffs on staves are redundant unless they also affect spells (within reason, fire spells shouldn't be able to freeze).

Staves need to be looked at, basically. There're currently a lot of issues with them. They can't be upgraded without a rare gem, they're ineffectual in melee, they don't benefit from tenebrium boosts...they're basically stat sticks, and even then the one archetype whose primary attribute scales with staves can't even benefit much from them. Staff damage isn't added to spell damage, you can't use staff debuffs with spells, the ranged staff skill doesn't affect terrain so you can't even take advantage of elemental effects...

They're just kind of there. There's no real reason to upgrade staves for mage classes, if you have a staff with +Int or +skill, you're going to keep on using it even if better damage staves drop, because the staff damage is worthless to you. They don't have the benefit of actual pen-and-paper RPG staves that act as repositories of magical power, they're stat sticks that sometimes don't even have the stats you want, they don't affect spells in any meaningful way, they're inferior melee weapons to almost everything else, spells can't crit so crit chance is useless...

Basically, they're just kind of there.

Personally, I'd make a separate set of affixes and suffixes for staves that directly benefit magical classes. Things like changing mage gameplay - 20% of spell damage is now void damage; your Fire spells have a 15% chance of making the enemy flee in horror; your touch range spells of <x> school now have a 15 meter range; Your shield spells also provide your party with half the benefit of the target; and so on.


Joined: Apr 2011
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
This game heavily supports "cross-breeds" like mage/wizard or fighter/ranger... so no, definitely STR on a staff/INT on an axe/DEX on a staff etc. etc. is not something that needs 'fixing'... as there ain't anything broken.

Joined: Jul 2014
T
member
Offline
member
T
Joined: Jul 2014
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
This game heavily supports "cross-breeds" like mage/wizard or fighter/ranger... so no, definitely STR on a staff/INT on an axe/DEX on a staff etc. etc. is not something that needs 'fixing'... as there ain't anything broken.


The game tries to support hybrids, but it disincentivizes them early on and str/dex is gimped to the point that it feels awful to keep getting str on dex items and the reverse.

Of course, working a hybrid requires you get the secondary attribute in your gear. ie: If you want to be a warrior with magic you need intelligence on your gear.

Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
This game heavily supports "cross-breeds" like mage/wizard or fighter/ranger... so no, definitely STR on a staff/INT on an axe/DEX on a staff etc. etc. is not something that needs 'fixing'... as there ain't anything broken.


Please point out when Dex on a staff would be remotely useful for anyone investing in Scoundrel skills, Marksman skills and magic skills.

With Marksman skills, you need a bow. With Scoundrel skills, you would have an argument of not for the fact that up till level 15, the only offensive skills not explicitly requiring a dagger are Trip and Charm, and it's probably a safe bet that you're going to follow up your trip with a backstab.

Mage archetypes don't even benefit from staves either, staves are only used by casters because the requirements are Int based. Does nobody actually look at the skills?

Hybrids are fun and all, but weapon itemization has problems. This is most evident with staves, because staves are subpar as weapons - can't be upgraded without a rare reagent, can't be enhanced with ores, have no synergy with spell damage, inferior to all other one and two handed weapons of the same level - and as stat sticks.

Before anyone starts howling at me, let's compare two white weapons.

Shillelagh - Level 15, Crushing 63-108, Crit chance 1.5%
Astonishing Air Staff - Level 16, Air 28-69, Crit Chance 1.5%

If anyone actually has an argument that isn't purposely vague, I'd love to hear it

Joined: Mar 2013
T
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
T
Joined: Mar 2013
Originally Posted by LordofBones
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
This game heavily supports "cross-breeds" like mage/wizard or fighter/ranger... so no, definitely STR on a staff/INT on an axe/DEX on a staff etc. etc. is not something that needs 'fixing'... as there ain't anything broken.


Please point out when Dex on a staff would be remotely useful for anyone investing in Scoundrel skills, Marksman skills and magic skills.


Dodge is one (then there is Fast track, Stealth for starters with Rogue and First Aid, Tactical Retreat for Ranger), but I have a feeling this is going to be an argument of exceptions and excuses where we get back to the point of you saying what is the wrong way to play. I mean, you seem to be making the argument that damage based abilities are the only worthwhile thing to focus on in a build?


Last edited by Tanist; 09/07/14 07:39 PM.
Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by LordofBones
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
This game heavily supports "cross-breeds" like mage/wizard or fighter/ranger... so no, definitely STR on a staff/INT on an axe/DEX on a staff etc. etc. is not something that needs 'fixing'... as there ain't anything broken.


Please point out when Dex on a staff would be remotely useful for anyone investing in Scoundrel skills, Marksman skills and magic skills.


Dodge is one (then there is Fast track, Stealth for starters with Rogue and First Aid, Tactical Retreat for Ranger), but I have a feeling this is going to be an argument of exceptions and excuses where we get back to the point of you saying what is the wrong way to play. I mean, you seem to be making the argument that damage based abilities are the only worthwhile thing to focus on in a build?


I'm sure that one point of dex is really going to matter.

Fast Track and Stealth are nice...and then you realize you have to switch weapons again for your backstab, thus costing AP. First Aid has limited applications in combat, you literally have to be right next to the fellow in question (and you can heal/buff through those effects anyway).

You're literally arguing with me that two skill lines - one of which revolves around ranged combat, the other sneaking and attacking with a dagger while laying down CC that also requires a dagger - would benefit from a staff with Dex despite 75% of those skill line's abilities being useless with anything other than the weapons they revolve around.

I can literally think of no reason why you'd use your staff as anything other than a sub-par stat stick, and then you realize that you also need Int to actually use the staff. Marksman and Scoundrel skill users already have to juggle between Dex, Speed and Perception, and now you want the poor buggers to juggle Intelligence as well? That's basically MAD taken to the most extreme point.

And you still miss my point that staves don't synergize with anything well. Can't be boosted without a specific reagent, can't be improved with ore, damage is subpar to other weapons of the same level, useless to Int users because they don't affect spells...

Last edited by LordofBones; 09/07/14 07:58 PM.
Joined: Mar 2013
T
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
T
Joined: Mar 2013
Originally Posted by LordofBones

I'm sure that one point of dex is really going to matter.

...Rest of your argument...



It is if I am a dex/int build. It has an effect on the successful use of a spell (see the penalties/bonus on the spells?) and one point could mean being able to use it with some reasonable means, or not at all. Then there is dodge... which I could be balancing out points into dex to reach a certain level for my build. By the way, I swap weapons quite often to use various skills and abilities. It is because the abilities are very powerful in hybrid builds. I play on hard btw and I think the game is too easy. Maybe I am playing wrong?


You are doing exactly as I said you would. You are rationalizing and making excuses as why it is not ideal. Each step you are claiming your argument is correct, because people are playing wrong if they don't agree with you.

If you have to give numerous excuses and exceptions to make your argument, it means your argument isn't sound.

Just admit it. You play a certain way and think everyone who does not play your way is wrong.

Edit:

I think you put too much attention to maxing specific stats rather than seeing that max stats are not what wins encounters. It is having the right tools to be able adapt and change to your situation. That is my opinion though, you play how it fits you, neither is really the right or wrong way to play. Results are what matter and I can tell you I get results by playing the way you say is sub optimal. /shrug

Last edited by Tanist; 09/07/14 08:15 PM.
Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by LordofBones

I'm sure that one point of dex is really going to matter.

...Rest of your argument...



It is if I am a dex/int build. It has an effect on the successful use of a spell (see the penalties/bonus on the spells?) and one point could mean being able to use it with some reasonable means, or not at all. Then there is dodge... which I could be balancing out points into dex to reach a certain level for my build. By the way, I swap weapons quite often to use various skills and abilities. It is because the abilities are very powerful in hybrid builds. I play on hard btw and I think the game is too easy. Maybe I am playing wrong?


You are doing exactly as I said you would. You are rationalizing and making excuses as why it is not ideal. Each step you are claiming your argument is correct, because people are playing wrong if they don't agree with you.

If you have to give numerous excuses and exceptions to make your argument, it means your argument isn't sound.

Just admit it. You play a certain way and think everyone who does not play your way is wrong.


You haven't even backed up any of your arguments so far, dismissing mine because I'm pointing out why they aren't ideal. That is the entire point of it! How can you argue about something without providing factual statements to back up your argument?

A Dex/Int user with equal stat distribution (assuming one even exists), faced with a dagger, bow and a staff with the exact same abilities, will always benefit more from the dagger because the dagger and bow work well with all skills, while the staff has no synergy with any skill or ability in the game except for Staff of Magus. You can't use Razor's Edge or Eye Gouge without a dagger, you can't use Barrage without a bow, but you can use Oath of Desecration, Summon X, Small Fireball, Teleportation, Wildfire, Fortify, Absorb, Minor Heal and so on without a staff. Hell, using bows and daggers actually consume less AP than a staff while dealing more damage, VASTLY more in the case of a dagger and lolbackstab.

I've been opening the game to back up my arguments, comparing tooltips and so on, while you've dismissed them on the basis of me actually backing up my arguments with facts? Have I wandered into bizarro-land?

No, seriously, please tell me why my argument is wrong. Tell me if I'm missing something. Because so far you haven't done anything more than vaguely dismiss my arguments.

Joined: Mar 2013
T
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
T
Joined: Mar 2013
Originally Posted by LordofBones


No, seriously, please tell me why my argument is wrong. Tell me if I'm missing something. Because so far you haven't done anything more than vaguely dismiss my arguments.


Your argument is a subjective opinion as to why you think it is the wrong way for someone to play. I gave you examples, you dismissed them with "Well... ummm like 1 dex matters" and continue to ignore the points I make. You excuse them, and flippantly dismiss them LIKE I SAID YOU WOULD DO FROM THE VERY START!

Go argue with a wall for fucks sake. All you are looking for is a fucking sounding board to agree with you. /boggle

Joined: Apr 2011
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Originally Posted by LordofBones
Before anyone starts howling at me, let's compare two white weapons.

Shillelagh - Level 15, Crushing 63-108, Crit chance 1.5%
Astonishing Air Staff - Level 16, Air 28-69, Crit Chance 1.5%

If anyone actually has an argument that isn't purposely vague, I'd love to hear it


Let's see.
Oh, one of them needs to penertrate armor, while the other (through staff of malgus/tempest) does not.

If the damages where equal it would be majorly overpowered.
Now back to your incorrect assesements...

EDIT:
Also fun to read your 'dagger and lolbackstab'... did you voice your opinion in the "Dex builds are underpowered" threat. Obviously they are playing it wrong!

It's funny... I see "Mages are OP! warriors are OP! dex is OP! Mages are useless! Warriors are pathetic! Dex is underpowered!"
If all those 6 pass regularly... didn't it mean they actually got the balance right pretty well, and it's all just human error of how to use what's given to them, like you are now?

Last edited by Hassat Hunter; 09/07/14 09:56 PM.
Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter


Let's see.
Oh, one of them needs to penertrate armor, while the other (through staff of malgus/tempest) does not.

If the damages where equal it would be majorly overpowered.
Now back to your incorrect assesements...

EDIT:
Also fun to read your 'dagger and lolbackstab'... did you voice your opinion in the "Dex builds are underpowered" threat. Obviously they are playing it wrong!

It's funny... I see "Mages are OP! warriors are OP! dex is OP! Mages are useless! Warriors are pathetic! Dex is underpowered!"
If all those 6 pass regularly... didn't it mean they actually got the balance right pretty well, and it's all just human error of how to use what's given to them, like you are now?


Madora does more damage with a greatsword that has half the damage absorbed than I do with a staff of magus, so I dunno what your point is. Plus elemental resistances, which you're overlooking.

I also said staves suck, because they don't synergize with anything. Don't put words in my mouth, a melee and ranged classes scale with their weapons and skills, but a mage has literally no benefit to using a staff over an axe or dagger or a bloody shovel. You'll be spending your AP buffing, debuffing or summoning anyway.

Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by LordofBones


No, seriously, please tell me why my argument is wrong. Tell me if I'm missing something. Because so far you haven't done anything more than vaguely dismiss my arguments.


Your argument is a subjective opinion as to why you think it is the wrong way for someone to play. I gave you examples, you dismissed them with "Well... ummm like 1 dex matters" and continue to ignore the points I make. You excuse them, and flippantly dismiss them LIKE I SAID YOU WOULD DO FROM THE VERY START!

Go argue with a wall for fucks sake. All you are looking for is a fucking sounding board to agree with you. /boggle


You mean like the non-combat examples you gave, which would then have to be followed up by switching weapons to something that could take advantage of your positioning (thus costing AP)? One Dexterity gives like 5 defense rating, which isn't much to boast about, and staves don't synergize with Scoundrel or Marksman skills. Trip is situational with enemies being outright immune to it at times, with your only real contenders being Charm, Eye Gouge nad Razor's Edge. Using your medical skills in combat would mean you have to teleport back and forth with two long cooldowns when it would be more advantageous to just heal them through the effects.

I shouldn't be forced to explain basic fucking game mechanics. I'm looking at the character sheet to verify this; you think Larian planned for Scoundrels and Marksmen to use staves and greatswords when 75% of their skills rely on specific kinds of weaponry?

You keep claiming "subjective opinion", but so far it's all backed up by game mechanics, which you're so eager dismiss because it doesn't fit your precious hybrids, despite the fact that staves are completely useless, deal less base damage than any other weapon of the same level, can't be enhanced without a reagent, can't be boosted or empowered by ores and don't affect Intelligence based skills.

Why are you so vehement about this? Would a change in itemization affect your playstyle? It's not going to make fights less tactical or challenging, it just means that there'd be less chance of useless stats on items.

Joined: May 2013
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: May 2013
Tell me when a mage in this game NEEDS a staff to do damage, instead of relying on all the skills they have that do oh-so-much-more than just deal damage.


Unless otherwise specified, just an opinion or simple curiosity.
Joined: Jul 2014
T
member
Offline
member
T
Joined: Jul 2014
Originally Posted by LordofBones
I also said staves suck, because they don't synergize with anything. Don't put words in my mouth, a melee and ranged classes scale with their weapons and skills, but a mage has literally no benefit to using a staff over an axe or dagger or a bloody shovel. You'll be spending your AP buffing, debuffing or summoning anyway.


Of course, as far as stats go intelligence is far stronger than strength and dexterity as a result. Strength and Dexterity are poor stats outside of the gear they let you use. Since intelligence stuff is non-gear reliant and intelligence is a stronger stat than both str or dex any hybrid that uses spells and intelligence as a secondary will always be superior to any other hybrid...

Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by EinTroll
Tell me when a mage in this game NEEDS a staff to do damage, instead of relying on all the skills they have that do oh-so-much-more than just deal damage.


Jesus Christ.

For the last time, I'm saying that staves don't synergize well with anything. They're the weapons that are affected by the primary attribute of the mage archetype, but they're not of any use to mages because they give no benefit save for Staff of Magus that you won't even have the AP to use after buffs/debuffs/summons/damage spell. They don't lend their damage to spells, they can't be boosted or enhanced the way melee weapons can, deal less base damage than any other weapon of the same level...they're redundant for both warriors and mages. You're not going to use a staff with Flurry or Whirlwind, or with Razor's Edge and Eye Gouge, or Ricochet and Barrage, or even just to autoattack. Your Burning Blaze will be the same if your +Int staff is level 1 or 20, whereas Dust Devil will be stronger with a lvl 20 sword compared to a level 19 sword.

Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
Originally Posted by Tyhan
Originally Posted by LordofBones
I also said staves suck, because they don't synergize with anything. Don't put words in my mouth, a melee and ranged classes scale with their weapons and skills, but a mage has literally no benefit to using a staff over an axe or dagger or a bloody shovel. You'll be spending your AP buffing, debuffing or summoning anyway.


Of course, as far as stats go intelligence is far stronger than strength and dexterity as a result. Strength and Dexterity are poor stats outside of the gear they let you use. Since intelligence stuff is non-gear reliant and intelligence is a stronger stat than both str or dex any hybrid that uses spells and intelligence as a secondary will always be superior to any other hybrid...


That's true.

The downside is that Intelligence gear looks as boring as sin, since there's only one playable robe model in the game despite Immaculates having cool-looking robes (that you can't loot and wear frown )

Joined: Mar 2013
T
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
T
Joined: Mar 2013
Originally Posted by LordofBones
[quote=Tanist]
Why are you so vehement about this? Would a change in itemization affect your playstyle? It's not going to make fights less tactical or challenging, it just means that there'd be less chance of useless stats on items.



Originally Posted by Tanist

...but I have a feeling this is going to be an argument of exceptions and excuses where we get back to the point of you saying what is the wrong way to play.


You are making excuses. It doesn't matter what counter I provide to your argument, you will dismiss it off as you did, as I said you would do from the start.

The main argument here by people is that the loot system is not tailored. What you want is the loot system to be tailored to what YOU consider worthy strategies of play. That means, everyone will be subjected to your narrow idea of what is the correct way to play.

So, my advice to you is... MOD IT how you like it. That way, all people with like minds can download your mod and play the game according to your "correct" way to play it.

That isn't good enough though is it? For most narcissists, it isn't.

Joined: May 2014
L
member
Offline
member
L
Joined: May 2014
It's always fun when people degenerate to ad hominems, eh?


Joined: Mar 2013
T
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
T
Joined: Mar 2013
Originally Posted by LordofBones
It's always fun when people degenerate to ad hominems, eh?



Your welcome. You can thank me for giving you an easy out so you don't actually have to deal with the content of the post.

Page 8 of 10 1 2 6 7 8 9 10

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5