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Originally Posted by Tanist
Originally Posted by LordofBones
It's always fun when people degenerate to ad hominems, eh?



Your welcome. You can thank me for giving you an easy out so you don't actually have to deal with the content of the post.


There's nothing much to comment on. You refuse to address the content of my posts, ignore my arguments, get bitchy when I do counter your arguments. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

You seem to be more intent on making personal attacks and dismissing people who disagree without specifically addressing the issue. Everything I've said about staves so far is true from my point of view, they're reduced to being a stat stick and nothing more because they don't benefit Int-based classes as much as Dex weapons benefit Dex archetypes and Str weapons benefit Str archetypes. Hell, the Tenebrium skill you get doesn't benefit the fighter who does use staves as melee weapons, because staves don't get tenebrium damage boosts.

Mages don't need staves either. Staves don't add anything to any of the elemental schools or witchcraft, so that level 1 staff with +1 int is vastly more useful than the level 20 staff with +1 Dex to someone who relies on casting spells. Admittedly, this is true of PnP as well, but PnP has an entire list of quarterstaves with magical properties beneficial to mages (staves of power, of the magi) and even other old school games acknowledge this as well (mage staves in Arcanum, staves in Infinity Engine games, the Staff of Magnus in Morrowind, Gothic's mage staves).

It just seems very odd that items that require Int to wield don't actually benefit the skills governed by that stat, while Str and Dex items do benefit their subordinate skills.

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Originally Posted by LordofBones

There's nothing much to comment on. You refuse to address the content of my posts, ignore my arguments, get bitchy when I do counter your arguments. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.


I did address it. You then went into a list of excuses as to what is the ideal way to play. You threw down the gauntlet, challenging anyone to defeat your argument, but it is impossible to defeat it when you define what is an acceptable rebuttal.

I say Dex provides dodge and you make the excuse that it is not ideal or useful and to make certain builds is the wrong way to play. I say that there are plenty of skills for a hybrid to use between disciplines and you excuse that claiming it is not ideal/efficient to switch weapons, etc...

Never mind the fact that none of your arguments are validated as they make many assumptions and can not properly account for the variables in a given encounter.

Your argument can not be defeated. You will win every single time because all you have to do is excuse any counter to your premise with a subjective declaration just as you have done in every response to people who try here.

So, good luck with that as I have no desire to sit and argue on and on with someone who is oblivious to their fallacious behavior.

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K.

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Anyway, to sum up this giant battle:

LordofBones thinks INT on a weapon is *teh devil* and needs to be eliminated.
Tanist defends it by saying OS perfectly allows mage/warriors and thus it's no problem.

Then a major discussion about staves and Staff of Malgus (personally I think it could use knocking down to 3AP) including massive flames.

Now you're up to date on the last 5 pages.

PS. Dexterity increases defenses, so it makes sense for a STR-based character as well in certain configurations... despite some claim it's not.

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Originally Posted by LordofBones
Everything I've said about staves so far is true from my point of view


And therein lies the crux of the matter, as I can see it. You're subjectively analyzing it from your point of view, and claiming it as an objective viewpoint. Who's right or wrong? Beats me, I'm just munching the popcorn and watching the show.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Anyway, to sum up this giant battle:

LordofBones thinks INT on a weapon is *teh devil* and needs to be eliminated.
Tanist defends it by saying OS perfectly allows mage/warriors and thus it's no problem.

Then a major discussion about staves and Staff of Malgus (personally I think it could use knocking down to 3AP) including massive flames.

Now you're up to date on the last 5 pages.

PS. Dexterity increases defenses, so it makes sense for a STR-based character as well in certain configurations... despite some claim it's not.


Pity you got both sides of it wrong. I said that staves were terrible because they didn't synergize with anything, they're an Int weapon that doesn't benefit Int skills, they can spawn with bonuses to attributes that don't benefit from staves (i.e. Scoundrel and Marksman) and the Staff of Magus is a waste of AP.

As for Dexterity itself, I just tested this with Scarlett. 1 Dexterity gives 5 OR to Dex Weapons, 5 DR (i.e. evade, which is difficult to quantify, you start with a base of 60, and with 14 Dex Scarlett has a further +45 to it), and a 5% chance of success with Dex skills. Staves aren't Dex weapons, so that leaves you with two other benefits, but from what I've seen and tested that extra 5 doesn't make or break anything.

Basically, staves are a problem because they're an Int weapon that's useless to Int users, and itemization has issues because they can appear on weapons that otherwise don't benefit whatsoever from the stats.

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I like Hassat's TLDR summary better.

Last edited by Songbird; 10/07/14 04:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by LordofBones


As for Dexterity itself, I just tested this with Scarlett. 1 Dexterity gives 5 OR to Dex Weapons, 5 DR (i.e. evade, which is difficult to quantify, you start with a base of 60, and with 14 Dex Scarlett has a further +45 to it), and a 5% chance of success with Dex skills. Staves aren't Dex weapons, so that leaves you with two other benefits, but from what I've seen and tested that extra 5 doesn't make or break anything.


No, one point would not break or make anything "IF" you aren't a build that has any attention into Dex. Though... "IF" you are a hybrid that balances some DEX to use some DEX based skills and then relies on some gear to push it up to a percentage that is acceptable for their use, well... then... that 5 DR and that 5% increase may be part of a build that is useful.

Now if you have NO dex and place all of your points into a single or other stats, then no, 1 point isn't going to make that much of a difference...

But then... the entire game does not center around how YOU build your characters because how YOU build them is not the only way to build them, regardless of how wrong you think everyone else plays.

Seriously, why am I even bothering to explain this?

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Originally Posted by LordofBones


Basically, staves are a problem because they're an Int weapon that's useless to Int users, and itemization has issues because they can appear on weapons that otherwise don't benefit whatsoever from the stats.


I agree with you, I started with a witch class character but ended up making it a witch/rogue because well... staffs dont have much benefit since late game you have enough spells to trow at your enemy which is more effective then the staff of magus attack. IT doesn't decrease spell AP need or decreases the cooltime.. I could have just been casting it bare handed since I didn't use the staff or saw much use in it, but daggers are nice since you can backstab people/things with it.

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Diablo 2 had staves, wands and orbs useless for direct damage, in final fantasy tactics your wands were never going to do the same kind of damage as your swords will...

It's a design decision of the game and frankly not an unique one. That's why mages have spells with 1 turn cool down.

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Originally Posted by Songbird
Diablo 2 had staves, wands and orbs useless for direct damage, in final fantasy tactics your wands were never going to do the same kind of damage as your swords will...

It's a design decision of the game and frankly not an unique one. That's why mages have spells with 1 turn cool down.


False.

Staves in Diablo 2 spawned generally with bonuses to caster stats (+skills, cast time, etc), and orbs are a class specific item that also spawned with bonuses to sorceress skills (all double-checked via google). Wands only appeared in D3 as weapons, and usually spawn with wizard-themed bonuses (Int, arcane power, skill boosts, etc) plus they directly impact spell damage and duration between damage ticks.

Final Fantasy rods also boosted either Magic Power, Element or a magic spell, going by the wiki.

Staves in D:OS have nothing going for them.

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Originally Posted by LordofBones
Staves in D:OS have nothing going for them.


But they look pretty!


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I said DIRECT DAMAGE, and my reply was for the previous poster who wanted Staff of Magus to match up to backstabbing in terms of damage.

I didn't mention modifiers for spells and casting at all.

Having actually played Diablo 2 and Final Fantasy Tactics I know very well what equipment in those games do for a Mage.

If you are actually interested in what I'm posting, I do support adding modifiers that support casters to items, but you would need to read.

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Originally Posted by Songbird
I said DIRECT DAMAGE, and my reply was for the previous poster who wanted Staff of Magus to match up to backstabbing in terms of damage.

I didn't mention modifiers for spells and casting at all.

Having actually played Diablo 2 and Final Fantasy Tactics I know very well what equipment in those games do for a Mage.

If you are actually interested in what I'm posting, I do support adding modifiers that support casters to items, but you would need to read.


My apologies, it's late and I've been trying to mod a few spells in D:OS without much luck, so I'm kind of grouchy.

As for modifiers that support casters, I'm in full agreement, but I'm not sure if that could be modded in with the Engine...we'll see when Larian releases their engine updates.

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Thanks. I hope so too. I have big plans for mods but right now it's been pretty limiting

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Originally Posted by Songbird
I said DIRECT DAMAGE, and my reply was for the previous poster who wanted Staff of Magus to match up to backstabbing in terms of damage.


Either you understood me incorrect or I didn't explain it clear enough, What I was trying to say that if the staff only enables to use the staff of magus attack, thats quite worthless since I wont be using it since I have enough other spells to keep casting and since it doesn't decrease anything from the spells, I might as well use a sword or a dagger and it wont change my AP need for casting or increase the cooltime for my spells, SO if we had to categorize the staff as something I would say its an elemental bow, which we absolutely dont need, I wish it to give me benefits as a caster not give me an alternative bow.

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Swords and dagger require investment in Str and Dex respectively. In return for your investment in stats you get usage of items that do direct damage.

Staves require no other investment from the Mage other than a stat that is already fuelling their spell damage. Staff of Magus have no restrictions to use. And frankly it's terrible. I'd rather bank AP than use it.... I wish staves had a few caster exclusive modifiers but it should not be a good direct combat weapon.

You are right I'm probably misunderstanding you, what is your complaint with staves?

Last edited by Songbird; 10/07/14 07:51 PM.
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Oh, perfection, why art thou so elusive?

Oh, humans, why art thou unable to even describe me?


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Without following all the details of the discussion in this thread:

I tend to use Staff of Magus a lot with my witch. It is true that it does not make too much damage but it is great if you want to finish off the enemies who are already very low on health and do not want to waste precious melee attacks of your warriors. Besides, Staff of Magus is really great if you use it on mobs who are immune to opposite elements: so, a staff of magus cast with water staff does something like 80-90 damage to fire elementals/burning archers etc. It is all about keeping staffs for each element and than selecting appropriate staff before going to combat.

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Originally Posted by Songbird
Swords and dagger require investment in Str and Dex respectively. In return for your investment in stats you get usage of items that do direct damage.

Staves require no other investment from the Mage other than a stat that is already fuelling their spell damage. Staff of Magus have no restrictions to use. And frankly it's terrible. I'd rather bank AP than use it.... I wish staves had a few caster exclusive modifiers but it should not be a good direct combat weapon.

You are right I'm probably misunderstanding you, what is your complaint with staves?


I hope this is understandable.

now
Staffs == Bow which only does elemental damage.

what it should be ( --> / == and, or <--)
Staffs == Decreasing spell cooldown / allowing to cast certain 1 turn cooldown spells twice / Decreasing AP need for spells / Increasing damage of the spells.

For example when you have a staff which has Air, what it should do is decrease cooldown, AP need and increase penetration of spells of the AIR category.

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