Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Game balance: Dex based class underpowered?

Good point ^^ That would help rogues a lot in the right direction.

I would argue that a warrior who is sneaking is not much different from a Rogue, but you're right; 2H will deal more damage than Daggers when taking skills into account. This stems from the fact that Daggers are 1H weapons (and are Dex based) compared to the Str-based 2H weapons of the Warrior.

Backstabs do get an increased chance to hit though compared to attacking from the side, which will lead to the enemy turning around less often.

That, and attacking with Daggers uses less AP, which means that they can be more versatile with their attacks; it's much easier for a Rogue to hit-move-sneak than it is for a Warrior thanks to the AP cost difference. This in turn makes it easier for the Rogue to be in a good position in Sneak mode at end of turn so that the enemies don't attack.

Edit:
Actually, does Guerilla even work with Skills? From what I have seen it doesn't, since the characters exit sneak mode just prior to casting the skill (it says Sneak Failed), but my eyes could just be playing tricks on me.

At the end of the day, the only thing I see Rogues as being better then warriors at is at support. My favorite team currently is a support wiz (Oath+Wildfire+Fortify+Resistance Buffs+Rain and so on) + Lone Wolf Warrior and a rogue could be a very good third spot for it's ability to take out important targets quickly without requiring much support in order to do so. But that's really it. And even then, do you really want to waste points on perception on your rogue?.. =\ (Big prob IMO)

Edit:
Because my third char has to have some perception.

And

Rogue is only marginally better, even at support. And even then it's a liability for not having staying power in a fight. Biggest advantage is in fact not competing for gear.

Hopefully when Larian guys are more or less done with bugfixes they'll get at balancing stuff out.

"I can use two 6 turn cooldown abilities every round three rounds in a row."

Yeah.

Okay.

For any fight that isn't wiped with the initial warrior AoE (You only get one whirlwind ever, so you don't get to use the good AoE on more than one character) the mage AoE is far better due to more utility, more skills, and lower cooldowns.

I think it's how you build your characters that determine how effective it is. When I made my warrior a support character and let my friends rogue supply the spike damage, she was able to take out 1 target per turn. But hey, I'm all for making Rogues even more deadly

Yeh, typo. Whirlwind + Dust Devil.

Meanth 3 rounds of megabuffed warrior in general w/ AOE's wiping most initially.

And you can get multiple Whirlwinds. One spawns in a cellar in Cyceal West (100%) but Aureius also sells it.

With my level 16 Dex char I took out 4 mobs in a torture chamber on my own (I got hit once the whole time).

My gf had control of her fire mage and madora, while I'd parked Jahun outside and crept in... after some rock paper scissors winning I suddenly found myself in combat with an Imp, a fellow Orc torturer and a guard (the 4th member of this soiree was another orc guard who didn't show up for 2 further turns).

Thanks to a double charm (1 ranger 1 rogue) in my first turn I used the orc torturer ss a meatshield and started shooting my own charmed imp!

I finished the imp off in one round with arrowstorm! (16 arrows, point blank, in his face) then helped on the orc guard, in less than 3 rounds I'd taken down 3 guys and was suddenly... TRIPPED by the other orc coming around the corner.

He walked up to me, tried to smack me and... EVADE! MISS! SOMEKINDOFHITthatmademestandup.
So I arrowstormed! him in his face for 90% of the health, and shot him with another arrow for good measure to finish him off.

The strength of a rogue is not in how much damage they put out, but in the charming, the 4 point CC for all occasions (immune to trip? blind! immune to blind? stun! immune to everything? invisible and let madora worry about it!). But with backstab damage only getting better later on (it feels weak early game but does get stronger past level 10) they've done a good job with Dex chars being the best at board control. (especially if you have 12 action points each initial round for a double special arrow shot of cloud > stunning combo).

But yes, for raw damage, dex chars are weaker - so it's good they get more board control to compensate.

Again though, if you had a 2H Glass Cannon Warrior with 5 points in sneak wouldn't it be able to do just the same as your rogue just quicker, better and with less risk?

Yyyyyy, actually in terms of raw damage, rogue is most powerful class in the game. Backstabbing ftw



You can use backstabbing only with daggers. And daggers are dex-based, one-handed weapons.

Who gives a shit about backstabs when a normal hit from a 2h sword deals more damage? ^^

And yes, I know it costs more AP to use to but it also deals more then 50% additional damage on just an average hit. Then you have to factor in Guerilla which means it's (2+1)x 2 AP vs 4+1 AP. And then you need to account for positioning, Rogue has to be behind the target which means more AP spent repositioning.

And as I said earlier in this thread, even if Rogues are better at straight up sneak attacks alone warriors have the added utility of being able to take a few punches and unload huge AOE attacks.

I see what OP is saying, but I don't feel Rangers are hideously underpowered. Although what you get isn't that amazing, what you get comes at a very low ability point cost, which is why Ranger synergizes so nicely with the "utility character" concept of crafting, etc. If anything, giving Rangers the ability to actually allocate all of their ability points without hybridizing into something else (where "pure" Rangers are actually utility hybrids) might lead to such a pure Ranger being too strong, unless the current abilities were toned down. Furthermore, I actually appreciate the huge synergy between Crafting and Rangers, since they're very dependent on Crafting to have a perpetual supply of special arrows.

I'm far more likely to agree as far as Rogues are concerned. Unlike Rangers, where you can go utility and adjust for defensive weaknesses by playing "back row" and avoiding damage... Rogues need to be in the front lines to be effective, which means going utility or hybrid means cutting into defense and ending up with a squishy, often-dead Rogue. I mean, if you do the actual numbers, I would agree that maxing Sneaking with Guerilla ends up increasing your damage per AP, but so do ability points in One-Handed, and unlike One-Handed you pretty much have to max Sneaking in order to get the combo to work... so okay, Rogues can get up to 10 One-Handed points, but it's not worth it for them to do so until after they've already maxed out One-Handed in the first place. That's a huge commitment to melee damage without a lot of survivability to back it up.

What all of the above means is: Rogue ends up only being a good idea as a hybrid mixed in with Fighter (Str/Dex). Shield and dagger, Man-At-Arms skills, etc. Well, and I use a few of the lower-level Rogue skills (Fast Track, Walk in Shadow) on my daggerless Crafting Ranger. The idea of a pure Rogue, or of the Spellblade Dex/Int dagger hybrid, just doesn't work well currently; Cleric (Fighter/Caster hybrid) is miles ahead.

I think what the Rogue really needs is something to do with its off hand. Perhaps some form of dual-wielding; perhaps some form of Dexterity-based shield. Perhaps both; options are good. Or perhaps neither, and some other solution I haven't thought of yet. Whatever works. The point being, pure Rogue isn't a wise course of action at present.

I think maybe reducing some rogue AP costs to near nothingness could be a good solution. Having the ability to just demolish a single target would be a very good step in the right direction.

I'm not saying they don't kind of have said ability right now but they don't stand out enough compared to other builds.

I don't think rogues have problems with AP, most of the time they have nothing to do but to spend them on backstabbing because all of their skills are on cooldown.

I've been thinking about my original suggestion here, and it actually wouldn't work, then there would be less incentive to go Str/Dex hybrid for shields.

I think maybe the problem is simply that Rogues do not have enough skills. You can count the number of Rogue skills which are not melee-range-only with one hand. (Rangers have a similar issue, with their skills being mainly circumstantial status except for three damaging skills, but I consider this okay, due to access to special arrows.)

The main problem with scoundrel is that most of the skills are not worth using for damage. This leaves you in a position where standard basic attacks in the backstab position are pretty much always the best option. Even most of the utility options are outdone by low level magic spells you could pick up for a few skill points. Even if their raw damage is high, having basic attacks be your best option is just not fun play, at least to me.

At least marksman offers a few decent attacks and a couple decent utility skills that are very much worth having on your bar and using. Then the variety in arrows gives another addition to the combat for them. While they may not have the same raw damage as 10 backstabs in a row, it is more entertaining and fun to play.

Man at Arms really only has a few good damage skills and a few good utility skills as well. The main reason it gets a lot of attention is 2-hand damage output. If it was not so high compared to everything else then people would complain just the same. The only thing people talk about with man-at-arms is the uber damage they do. It doesnt offer anything else.

Personally I think scoundrel needs a complete review of the skills, with at least a few of them made into something better than backstab spam.

Then they need to make physical attack skills have reduced cooldowns with increased physical attributes, the same as spells get with intelligence.

if it throws the damage out of whack, they could probably amp up spell damage in some regard, because honestly spell damage is pretty low. its just all utility.

right now the best set up is to have your spellcasters act as buff-bots and controllers and have the physical guys basic attack for the win.

it could be so much more.

It seems to me that you're not understanding the point of skills for weapon classes. Damage isn't the point, nor should it be. Man-At-Arms has some great skills for utility, such as Battering Ram, Crushing Fist, even Cure Wounds, which make even pure warriors more than simply dishing out damage to the face. However, when these classes are dishing out damage, it should be with normal attacks primarily, and much less often with skills.

Razor's Edge and Trip those are good skills. However, Cloak and Dagger is a little unwieldy, with a AP cost of 6 and not even available until level 10, which means Rogues are sorely lacking in mobility talents, especially early on.

Here's what I'd do...
Trip is now a Marksman (starting) skill and does not require any particular weapon to be usable.
Tactical Retreat is now a Scoundrel (starting) skill, renamed "Jump" (perhaps with an adjective, such as "Precise Jump").
Cloak and Dagger is now a Marksman skill, renamed "Tactical Retreat."
Rapture is now a Scoundrel skill, renamed "Conspire."

This would give rogues access to a cheap (4AP) teleport skill, available very early in the game, without having to spend a point in Marksman. It would also give Scoundrels four (not three) starting skills to choose from. And a Marksman with sufficient Charming Arrows doesn't need Rapture anyway.

I agree that scoundrel skills are kind of pathetic, but I love my backstab rogue.

I have played through the game two times now. First time with two lone wolf mages, one for fire and lightning and the other for earth, water and witchcraft. The second playthrough was with two lone wolf melee guys, one focusing only on man at arms and the other on scoundrel with two points in marksman to get some utility skills. I played on hard difficulty.

If anything, the scoundrel is the most powerful both in terms of damage and versatility. The backstab damage you do is ridiculous, especially if combined with Bully. You can boost damage even further with oath of desecration and rage for very little investment in cross-skills, but this is not needed in the least.

In terms of versatility, for dexterity based skills, you get two escape skills, two charm skills and three skills to disable (blind, stun and knockdown). On top of this you get invisibility which can both save you in combat, prepare you for combat and steal whatever you want anywhere.

The problem though, with melee is the leech talent. For both my melee guys, there was not one time that they were close to dying. Most of the hits that you get are less than what leech heals you. If you get hit by elemental damage you will soon heal that up again when you later in the turn get attacked by physical damage.

thats why every man-at-arms player loves to post about their huge flurry hits with all the buffs stacked on them. its obviously because people do not like using damage skills instead of basic attacks.

lets just go full derp-mode, why dont we?

/sarcasm off

people like having abilities to use instead of just spamming a basic all the time. it makes combat interesting and interactive. yeah, its technically fine with just basics and the game works.

it could be more though, and that was my whole point.