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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
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Hi everyone,
I am trying to create a perfect balanced party but I am kinda stuck...I am the type of person who just thinks 10 times before I even actually start the game so trying to figure out how should I set my party up.
So far I am thinking to play 4 man party:
1) pyro/geo glass cannon mage
2) dex based melee rogue
3) water/air mage (I heard there is guy I can hire early in game)
4) 2 handed warrior tank (another to hire early)
Anyone experienced can give me an advice if such party has good synergy and is overall a good choice? (planning to play on hard)
Also Ive seen many topics that ppl say melee dex based rogues are underpowered, is it true? Would it be better to play a bow rogue rather then melee?
Another thing I wanted to ask is how important are skills like leadership, crafting, lockpicking? If yes then what characters should have leadership/crafting/trading? Should it be those that we create in the beginning or can be those that can be hired?
Also if melee rogue is viable, could anyone advice me how to build a good rogue or point me to some thread with a good build?
thx so much in advance
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2014
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let me give you a rundown of certain skills first:
Charisma = CRAP it only affects rock paper scissors and people like you a little bit better but really it's just useless
Leadership = pretty good as far as i know and heard
Pickpocketing = useless at this moment you can easily get some gear with +pickpocket
lockpicking = most would say useless i'd say it's ok. you can either break chests using your weapons or spells. or lockpick them i personally prefer to take a point in it and use +lockpicking gear for the rest to lazy to bash chests
sneak = honestly don't know if this is usefull. but i my self don't think it is. invisibility is better imo
Crafting = deffinetly usefull but that water/air mage you mentioned gets free scientist talent giving him +1 in crafting and blacksmithing. so it's best if you give him +blacksmithing or +crafting gear and maybe put 1 or 2 points in. OR you could later unlock henchmen in a special place ^^ and you can make 1 your crafter and just leave him in that special place and get him every now and then
I haven't tried melee rogue my self. but i do have a archer and i can tell you ranged is pretty nice :P
your party is decent. i personally prefer to go pyro/air and then give the mage companion water/earth (damn the person who decided to make him air/water >.>)
my party setup is
1. Battlemage with sword/shield and pyro/witchcraft/aero/man at arms
2. Ranger wit marksman/bow/scoundrel ( 1 point for the invisibility and haste skill) /barter
3. companion water/earth/crafting (Almost completely ignoring his air part :P
4. companion two handed/man at arms/leadership/defences
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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sneak = honestly don't know if this is usefull. but i my self don't think it is. invisibility is better imo
With rank 5 sneak you get 1 AP stealth in combat. Combined with guerilla talent, it is essential for damage output and survivability of all dex-based characters if you're really optimizing them.
Last edited by Fellgnome; 20/07/14 12:29 AM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Dec 2013
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I pretty much planned my Ranger class this way:
Starting perks: Bully & Guerrilla
Future perk: Glass Cannon - Quickdraw - Elemental Ranger
Primary Weapon: Bow
Ability priority:
Sneaking Lv 5 (Base 3 +1 Gear +1 Cautious)- for 1 AP combat sneak
Marksman Lv 5 For Quickdraw -1 AP Bow shots
Scoundrel Lv 2 For Charm Person AP cost reduction
Skill picks
First 3 should always be:
Tactical Retreat (Marksman): Easy Escape - later on allow you to leap in offensively.
Hide in Shadows (Scoundrel): Vanish for easy escapes, five rounds to drink potions. Taking damage/Using a skill breaks it.
Fast Track (Scoundrel): Hastes. Great opener.
Marksman
Ricochet: Hits up to 4, creates pool of blood. Throw lightning bolt/arrow for stuns. Can't miss.
Precision/Power Stance : Crucial. Precision for those hard shots, Power to nail Stun/Knockdown victims.
Rapture: 15 meter Charm skill. Needs level 10 though. 5 AP is too good.
Barrage: A standard 3-shot on single target. Inefficient use of AP, but works well when Sneak Attack is not an option.
Scoundrel
Charm Person: 3 meter range Charm. 6 AP cost. You get it much earlier than Rapture. Very helpful. If you think 3 meter is too short, you have a 15 meter leap. Think about it.
Other scoundrel abilities require dagger to use - so you won't use much till late game.
Geomancy
Midnight Oil: Slows - Triggers Bully damage bonus. Fire Arrow to ignite it is nice to. 3 AP. Cheap. If you give your fighters bully as well, this turns into a party buff.
Summon Spider: Great damage, great tanking, low AP cost. What's not to like?
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jul 2014
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As far as Invisibility vs. sneak, sure inv is better but it has a CD so you can only use it at most twice per fight while sneak is always available. On the other hand, you can start with WiS but 5 sneak is a mid game thing.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Apr 2014
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Sneak is an absolute must for dex rogues and (to a lesser extent) rangers. While skills that apply invisibility (WiS/Become Invisible/Make Invisible) are more reliable in that nothing can pull you out of invis except taking damage, they all have long cooldowns which means you can't really rely on them for anything other than either a one-off ambush primer or panic button when you're in trouble.
Sneak on the other hand has no cooldown and at rank 5 costs 1 AP. Best of all you can be rank 5 in sneak as early as level 7-8 with some luck. Get 2 levels in sneak (costs 3 ability points), and equip a helm and boots with +1 sneak (these are quite common from loot drops), and get the +1 sneak bonus from the Cautious trait. I've found sneak to be especially useful on Glass Cannon mages and rangers. You don't have to sweat the HP penalty from Glass Cannon when you can just have your guy enter sneak at the end of every turn and prevent enemies from targeting him.
As far as melee rogues being underpowered, it's not really true. Yes, they are harder to build and play than rangers because they don't have the luxury of sniping at enemies from 15 m away the entire fight. However, if you play smartly and support them with a mage they can easily match the DPS from rangers.
I will say, however, that comparing a pure dex ranger with a pure dex melee rogue, the ranger is much more versatile. A melee rogue is basically going to be a single-target DPS machine through and through, with little ability to fill other roles. Rangers can switch from single-target to AoE damage to CC to party support on the fly very easily due to access to special arrows and the greater variety found in Marksman skills.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2011
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A good ranger really is the third most powerful class in the game.
Marksman/Geo with Stealth/Bully/Guerrilla is very self sufficient.
Marksman/Hydro with Stealth/Bully/Guerrilla is even better with a little prep.
Last edited by Incendax; 20/07/14 06:50 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2014
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Didn't know that about sneak. thats pretty good to know :P
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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The truth of the matter is that aero/hydro and pyro/geo are horrible combos on the same character. Instead, aero on a different character than hydro, and pyro on a different character than geo.
Scenario 1: You're faced with an enemy composition of fire-based monsters who heal off fire. The pyro/geo becomes worthless, because throwing poison at the fire-based monsters just creates more fire. The aero/hydro, on the other hand, is inundated with good moves and doesn't have time to execute all of them. On the other hand, if you split them, the hydro can start things off with a Rain dance, then the Aero can follow up with lightning and some Bitter Chills. (It's important for the Hydro to have a better Initiative.)
Scenario 2: You're faced with an enemy composition which is very weak to fire damage. The aero/hydro feels kind of meh in the fight, while the pyro/geo is inundated with good moves and doesn't have time to use them all. On the other hand, if you split them, you might have one character start things off with a Fireball, then easily follow up seconds later with a Deadly Spores from the geo for a wicked one-two punch. (Order here doesn't really matter as much.)
If you keep Jahan in both Aero and Hydro, you are probably doing it wrong. Pick one and only one for further investment, and then give him either Pyro or Geo to compliment it.
In my opinion, the ideal party is:
1. Ranger: Dex, Perc; Bow; Quickdraw and Bartering/Charisma/Leadership (don't invest too heavily in this last category because you can wear +Charisma/Bartering items in town and +Leadership out of town)
2. Cleric: Str, Int; Shields and One-Handers; Man-At-Arms, Pyrotechnics, and Aerotheurge; Lightning Rod, Weather the Storm plus Plate Armour plus Explode
3. Jahan: Int, Speed; Hydrosophist, Geomancer, Witchcraft; Scientist (again, don't invest too heavily, +skills items ftw)
4. Madora the Strength-Rogue: Str, Con, and up to but not exceeding 8 Dex; Two-Handers; Tactical Retreat, Fast Track, Cloak & Dagger; Comeback Kid, Picture of Health, Glass Cannon; also Weather the Storm plus Plate Armour to be resistant/immune to Cleric's Explodes
Assuming your non-Jahan caster is a Str/Int hybrid, the logical distribution is to give Pyro and Aero to the hybrid, since that gives the hybrid access to Explode as well as Lightning Rod, which is great for melee since it allows them to wade into electrified water and delve into static clouds.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 20/07/14 01:16 PM.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
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The truth of the matter is that aero/hydro and pyro/geo are horrible combos on the same character. Instead, aero on a different character than hydro, and pyro on a different character than geo.
Scenario 1: You're faced with an enemy composition of fire-based monsters who heal off fire. The pyro/geo becomes worthless, because throwing poison at the fire-based monsters just creates more fire. The aero/hydro, on the other hand, is inundated with good moves and doesn't have time to execute all of them. On the other hand, if you split them, the hydro can start things off with a Rain dance, then the Aero can follow up with lightning and some Bitter Chills. (It's important for the Hydro to have a better Initiative.)
Scenario 2: You're faced with an enemy composition which is very weak to fire damage. The aero/hydro feels kind of meh in the fight, while the pyro/geo is inundated with good moves and doesn't have time to use them all. On the other hand, if you split them, you might have one character start things off with a Fireball, then easily follow up seconds later with a Deadly Spores from the geo for a wicked one-two punch. (Order here doesn't really matter as much.)
If you keep Jahan in both Aero and Hydro, you are probably doing it wrong. Pick one and only one for further investment, and then give him either Pyro or Geo to compliment it.
In my opinion, the ideal party is:
1. Ranger: Dex, Perc; Bow; Quickdraw and Bartering/Charisma/Leadership (don't invest too heavily in this last category because you can wear +Charisma/Bartering items in town and +Leadership out of town)
2. Cleric: Str, Int; Shields and One-Handers; Man-At-Arms, Pyrotechnics, and Aerotheurge; Lightning Rod, Weather the Storm plus Plate Armour plus Explode
3. Jahan: Int, Speed; Hydrosophist, Geomancer, Witchcraft; Scientist (again, don't invest too heavily, +skills items ftw)
4. Madora the Strength-Rogue: Str, Con, and up to but not exceeding 8 Dex; Two-Handers; Tactical Retreat, Fast Track, Cloak & Dagger; Comeback Kid, Picture of Health, Glass Cannon; also Weather the Storm plus Plate Armour to be resistant/immune to Cleric's Explodes
Assuming your non-Jahan caster is a Str/Int hybrid, the logical distribution is to give Pyro and Aero to the hybrid, since that gives the hybrid access to Explode as well as Lightning Rod, which is great for melee since it allows them to wade into electrified water and delve into static clouds. Hmm thats very interesting, weird no1 mentioned that before? Also posted on another forum, no one mentioned that Well I am not a huge fan of str/in hybrids rly, also I would want my rogue to be backstabber melee rather then bow ranger as i dont want 3 ranged chars considering playing with 3 members glass cannon though btw Scrotie from PoE?:)
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2011
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ScrotieMcB is absolutely right. Aerotheurge and Hydrosophist are so amazingly good that you actually lose efficiency having them both on the same character. I can spend a full 20 AP casting nothing but spells from a single one of those schools, so having two characters spamming them is much better. The only exception is Rain. You can never have enough Rain. 
Last edited by Incendax; 20/07/14 04:06 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2014
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Hi everybody i just bought the game havent played it yet im at char creation and im thinking about how
to build my party. I have some questions:
-what about enchanter? i read that crowd control is good in this game but i havent found much about it
around
-is a battlemage a viable option? Does it comes out underpowered in the long run? i ask this because i ended up thinking something like this:
1:(protagonist): enchanter, cc mage
2:(protagonist): battlemage: magic powers and melee utility
3:pure mage: dps
4:tank
does it sound good? i dont really know anything bout this game so im completely open to suggestions
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jul 2014
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let me give you a rundown of certain skills first:
Charisma = CRAP it only affects rock paper scissors and people like you a little bit better but really it's just useless
Not saying it ain't useless, but it doesn't "Only Affect Rock Paper Scissors" either. For the spider queen for instance if you try to charm her with low Charisma you won't even get the opportunity to play Rock-Paper-Scissors against her.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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The truth of the matter is that aero/hydro and pyro/geo are horrible combos on the same character. Instead, aero on a different character than hydro, and pyro on a different character than geo.
Scenario 1: You're faced with an enemy composition of fire-based monsters who heal off fire. The pyro/geo becomes worthless, because throwing poison at the fire-based monsters just creates more fire. The aero/hydro, on the other hand, is inundated with good moves and doesn't have time to execute all of them. On the other hand, if you split them, the hydro can start things off with a Rain dance, then the Aero can follow up with lightning and some Bitter Chills. (It's important for the Hydro to have a better Initiative.)
Scenario 2: You're faced with an enemy composition which is very weak to fire damage. The aero/hydro feels kind of meh in the fight, while the pyro/geo is inundated with good moves and doesn't have time to use them all. On the other hand, if you split them, you might have one character start things off with a Fireball, then easily follow up seconds later with a Deadly Spores from the geo for a wicked one-two punch. (Order here doesn't really matter as much.)
If you keep Jahan in both Aero and Hydro, you are probably doing it wrong. Pick one and only one for further investment, and then give him either Pyro or Geo to compliment it.
In my opinion, the ideal party is:
1. Ranger: Dex, Perc; Bow; Quickdraw and Bartering/Charisma/Leadership (don't invest too heavily in this last category because you can wear +Charisma/Bartering items in town and +Leadership out of town)
2. Cleric: Str, Int; Shields and One-Handers; Man-At-Arms, Pyrotechnics, and Aerotheurge; Lightning Rod, Weather the Storm plus Plate Armour plus Explode
3. Jahan: Int, Speed; Hydrosophist, Geomancer, Witchcraft; Scientist (again, don't invest too heavily, +skills items ftw)
4. Madora the Strength-Rogue: Str, Con, and up to but not exceeding 8 Dex; Two-Handers; Tactical Retreat, Fast Track, Cloak & Dagger; Comeback Kid, Picture of Health, Glass Cannon; also Weather the Storm plus Plate Armour to be resistant/immune to Cleric's Explodes
Assuming your non-Jahan caster is a Str/Int hybrid, the logical distribution is to give Pyro and Aero to the hybrid, since that gives the hybrid access to Explode as well as Lightning Rod, which is great for melee since it allows them to wade into electrified water and delve into static clouds. If you have a scout you should never have to cast rain while in combat. Rain doesn't put you in combat either, and with the huge radius you don't need to be in line of sight to drop it on a group of enemies before initiating.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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Rain doesn't have an unlimited duration. Thus, you will end up casting it in combat, even if you scout ahead every single time. This is especially true if you cast multiple spells as a result of scouting (for example, Rain + summon); you'll have to pick one for the shorter duration.
I guess it's not crazy to get Rain on both casters. There are situations where as soon as the rain stops, you want it back up immediately. However, that isn't an argument for having two characters heavily invested in Hydro, it's an argument for one of them having 1-2 points in it.
I definitely think it's a good idea to use melee weapons axes in this game. Blacksmithing 5 is some ridiculousness (you almost have to try it to believe it), and the Man-At-Arms talents are extremely good. Pure mage isn't all it's cracked up to be, and having too many of them in your party isn't as good of an idea as it first sounds.
And yes, I'm Scrotie from PoE.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 20/07/14 10:06 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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True, I probably shouldn't've said "never". But rarely does combat last long enough that I need a second rain.
As for splitting up elements for certain casters, I disagree to some extent. Each caster should spare at least one or two point in all the magic abilities IMO for certain essentials. For some that's all you'll ever need too.
You'll also run into situations where one mage is out of range/out of order or whatever, so having more versatile mages reduces the chance you'll be unable to cast certain clutch spells.
Edit:
I agree with Man-at-Arms and crafted weapons. Pump strength early on, get an uber weapon/plate armor. Use uber weapon that costs tons of AP to swing with skills that have a set AP cost. One shot most things in the early game. It's pretty nuts.
I think having 2x mages and 2x physical damage dealers is close to ideal. The mages each buff the juggernauts and/or do standard crowd control, the juggernauts do their deal tons of damage thing.
As for PoE(Pillars of Eternity?) I don't recognize your name.
Last edited by Fellgnome; 20/07/14 10:15 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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One thing I wanted to point out and forgot: BlackMarch is correct, you don't even get to see a lot of the paper-rock-scissors if you don't have enough Charisma. People who go through the game on low Charisma must get the idea that the opportunity comes up much less often than it actually does. You can't just savescum through all of them, because you can't even attempt all of them without investment; they are invisible to you. I recommend gear investment over ability point investment, however; craft up some Tooth rings.
Also: PoE, in this case, is Path of Exile.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 20/07/14 10:42 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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I swap on charisma/barter items whenever I'm in civilization pretty much.
Last edited by Fellgnome; 20/07/14 10:58 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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Well, one issue is that you'll miss Charisma opportunities (never knowing they exist) unless you keep Charisma up most of the time. On the other hand, it's only 1AP to equip rings or amulets during battle. Keep them in a pouch. Alternatively, experience and scouting will eventually tell you which situations don't benefit from Charisma, but I try not to savescum too much.
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