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Originally Posted by PeteNewell
I think this is part of a long list of issues where some people would like to see all of the things they personally want to do differently taken away from everybody else. Because that's what people do, really. See this thread - http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=520864#Post520864 - or half the bloody beta forum if you can wade through it.

After all, just because it's a *game* about legendary, semi-mythical beings rediscovering who and what they are in a magical world, that doesn't mean they should have any kind of special advantages that *I* wouldn't have in the real world.

What if they added a new difficulty level called "fun-sucking-totally-nerfed-grimdark", where stealing took careful timing, implausible luck and micro-management; combat was crushingly difficult; and all of the silliness was removed and replaced by "gritty" realism?

Or what if they just did the kind of fantasy romp that they've done so very well and people stopped nit-picking and proclaiming their opinions as universal, self-evident truths?

Nah. Never gonna happen. I've gotta stop looking at threads like this.


Bravo. I concur wholeheartedly!

You see this time and again in all of the so called 'balance' threads. Reporting bugs is one thing, but asking the designers to re-design the game to their own liking (which is effectively what they are asking for) is something entirely different.

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^Agreed. That is why mod'ing is nice, we can hone it in all our own. Pete goes for worst case stating a solution becomes a chore in micromanagement and boredom, it doesn't have to be that way to be improved.

I found a sound fix is just make the FOV 100%, if a person is in the room and not sleeping or sitting (it seems sitting in this game = sleeping for vision) you cannot steal. Makes it easier yet for the player, no guessing, oooop's you caught me there and all that. I find that for me it is more realistic, like I can go into any room and just get to the side of a NPC and steal everything. You can't steal, so you don't, you know not to even try unless you can lure them out of an area. I didn't test invisibility, maybe today.

All said though, better game balancing is better game balancing, I rather see it from the source as much as possible.

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Is DOS a game about becoming the God of Thieves? Because if I'm not stealing everything then it really feels like I'm playing the game wrong.

Ideally, every strategy in the game should have certain benefits and certain drawbacks. If I am a warrior, then I get better armor and hit harder, but my mobility is reduced and I can't really deal ranged damage, and I am very gear-dependent. If I spend points on Charisma, then I can more easily talk my way out of trouble, but those are points I could have used to improve my crafting or combat abilities.

The benefit to stealing is obvious : you get vastly more gold. What's the drawback? It doesn't really require any skill investment, and the repercussions for getting caught are either so minor that they are meaningless or so major that they force a reload. Are there ONLY roleplaying reasons to not be a dickass thief?

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Just to clarify, I feel the title is a little misleading. Stealing things without invisibility feels about right. There's room for nitpicks, and legitimate ones, but at the end of the day nitpicks shouldn't drive developer action there are more important things to do than handle such trivialities.

The real issue is: invisibility is way too good in this game for out-of-combat jobs. You can pretty much break most aspects of the game wide open just by taking Walk in Shadows at character creation. Steal everything with absolute ease, sneak past enemies to get Teller of Secrets at level 3, and completely bypass the challenges involving sentry statues. NPCs watching their stuff disappear right in front of their eyes with no reaction breaks immersion. The enemies have absolutely no counter for invisibility, so it works at bypassing anything. Invisibility isn't a nitpick, it's a huge balance and immersion problem, and I definitely feel they're going about things the wrong way trying to fix it -- such as trying to limit the Teller of Secrets books per level, when the diseased root of that particular plant is how invisibility makes it easy to access her ridiculously early.

You know it's not a nitpick because Larian themselves is already aware of the problem and proposed a solution -- too bad it's the wrong solution.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 23/07/14 02:15 AM.
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Very well said McB. If there was a weapon exploit that could one-shot enemies, nobody would be saying "just don't use it". If there was a loophole that made a spell cost 1AP, people would not write "So, it's just part of the game". And if someone found a bypass in the mechanics to let you teleport anywhere, you would not see people saying "If you just roleplay it, then it makes sence".

But here we have an exploit that bypasses one of the main mechanics in the game: Loot. You earn your loot; you battle to find loot; you explore to get loot; you save up to buy loot; you learn to craft to get loot. Or, you can just steal for zero repercussions and get all of the above quick, free and easy.

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Again, I'm not saying there should always be repercussions for stealing. What I'm saying is that there should be a risk of getting caught stealing, and thus a risk of repercussions for stealing. This is not the same as a guarantee of repercussions; the repercussions should be avoidable. However, they should not be automatically avoided, because that's risk-free.

Like I said earlier/elsewhere, some "see invisibility" guys. Not everywhere, just in some places. If you add too many "see invisibility" guys, the feeling starts to become that invisibility is worthless, and we emphatically do not want that. If you add too few, you get the situation we have now. There's a happy medium somewhere between those two extremes.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 24/07/14 06:15 AM.
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For me, it isn't so much that stealing is easy it is that you can sell your stolen items to anyone... Even the person you have stolen it from. It is more the economy that needs an overhaul than the stealing, and there needs to be much better interaction between the two systems.

A game like skyrim does it perfectly. You can steal anything that you want if you are so inclined, but are limited in what you can do with them, With many merchants not buying stolen goods for the example. As it is in DOS, it basically seems like an afterthought is nothing major, just could do with a little tweak.

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Originally Posted by PabloSplinter
A game like skyrim does it perfectly. You can steal anything that you want if you are so inclined, but are limited in what you can do with them, With many merchants not buying stolen goods for the example.


Actually, I consider that to be a very ridiculous thing about Skyrim.
Sure, it makes sense that I can rob someone's store clean and don't have the ability to sell my stolen stuff back to its rightful owner. But if I stole something in Riften, I should be able to sell it in Solitude.
But no, for some reason every merchant in Skyrim instantly knows that this wooden plate I stole is in fact stolen, like every worthless item in Skyrim has its owner's name engraved into it.


Anyhoo, about D:OS:
I like how one character can occupy someone and have the other character rob him or the room he's in. Shouldn't be 'fixed'.
What could get a fix though is pick-the-room-clean-in-under-five-seconds invisibility spells.
Perhaps have the invisibility spell cancel itself after you pick something up.

Pickpocketing is too easy as well, and it doesn't really make sense. Right now there's a limit on how much you can pickpocket from someone, but if you don't overstep that amount then you can pickpocket without the danger of being caught. Add invisibility to that and you can pickpocket someone right in the middle of a crowded room.
In my second playthrough I've been ripping off as much people as I can and am loaded with gold. >_>

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Originally Posted by Gotcha!
Originally Posted by PabloSplinter
A game like skyrim does it perfectly. You can steal anything that you want if you are so inclined, but are limited in what you can do with them, With many merchants not buying stolen goods for the example.


Actually, I consider that to be a very ridiculous thing about Skyrim.
Sure, it makes sense that I can rob someone's store clean and don't have the ability to sell my stolen stuff back to its rightful owner. But if I stole something in Riften, I should be able to sell it in Solitude.
But no, for some reason every merchant in Skyrim instantly knows that this wooden plate I stole is in fact stolen, like every worthless item in Skyrim has its owner's name engraved into it.





Fair point, though I wouldn't call it ridiculous tbh. Not perfect then, but pretty much the best system around imo. Skyrim gets a lot of stick now(seems to be cool for some reason), but it does a lot of things right and looking at how systems interact in those games, it is something that really should be given credit imo. In DOS, you have two elements- stealing and economy working fine on their own, totally separately, but there is no interaction between the two systems which there really should be if they are to compliment each other.

It is hard to see where the balance should be met in this game tbh, as it is not right atm and a little simplistic, but at the same time we don't want it made too tedious or overcomplicated like the crafting can be for example. As it is, it is functional, but barely.

Also, I agree that distracting someone whilst you steal/sneak whatever is very good. Had some great moments in my game. Combined with the teleporter pyramid thing it can be a really interesting feature - distract whilst your rogue sneaks upstairs or wherever, then stop the conversation and teleport to them...done it once where there turned out to be a fight in a cellar I was sneaking in and I was able to teleport my whole group in to even it up. It was great!

Last edited by PabloSplinter; 24/07/14 08:05 PM.
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I'm honestly a lot more worried about how a citizen of Cyseal can calmly watch a painting walk off for a bit then vanish into nothingness, than I am worried about "fence" mechanics for proper liquidation of stolen goods. If I have to choose one to actually care about, it's the invisibility issue, hands down... which I guess means I don't really give a rat's about all of this fence talk.

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Thing is, Scrotie, that even WITHOUT invisibility I consider stealing to be way too easy.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't think that a couple warriors clanking around in full plate, with 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick should be able to steal everything of value from the Mayor's home. And then, with no investment in Charisma or Barting, sell all of that gold-plated dinnerware and stacks of paintings to a merchant who doesn't find it the least bit strange that a couple grizzled adventurers just happened to be carrying around the contents of a mansion.

I literally just don't think that should be possible in this game.

If you want to build a character who can do all of that, fine. I'm all for it. But you should have to earn it. Your character SHOULD have to actually be good at sneaking in order to steal while standing right next to an npc. Your character SHOULD find it challenging to sell things which are obviously someone else's property. Your character SHOULDN'T be able to find keys to storerooms and treasure chests lying around on the ground, where anybody can pick them up.

I agree that invisibility is a related problem, but you don't even need to use it to be a master thief in this game.

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The problem is, that there are places, where you cannot steal without invisibility or even pickpocket for that matter. For example the Inn in Silverglen. So you need invisibility to be that good occasionally.

You know whats even worse? A mage with high int and his 1 turn cooldown on invisibility. Ah well it ain't gonna change anyway no need to hold our breaths over this.

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Originally Posted by dirigible
Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't think that a couple warriors clanking around in full plate, with 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick should be able to steal everything of value from the Mayor's home.
If the real-life me was translated into a roleplaying character, I would probably also have 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick. This wouldn't necessarily stop me from stealing everything of value from a home, providing the security of that home was low enough, and I used conversation to create the necessary distractions.

I think it's wrong to say that certain things should be impossible if you don't have certain skills. That would be like saying combat is impossible if you don't increase your weapon skills to deal more damage, or if you decide not to have any spellcasters in your party. Things might become more difficult, sure... but that's not the same as impossible.

Stealing everything which isn't bolted down shouldn't be impossible, even for the utterly untrained. It should, however, be more difficult. There should be a sense that, the more you invest, the easier things become. The problem I have is that a single point in Scoundrel is a pathetically low amount of investment, and it's all but impossible for things to get any easier than that.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 24/07/14 09:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
I think it's wrong to say that certain things should be impossible if you don't have certain skills. That would be like saying combat is impossible if you don't increase your weapon skills to deal more damage, or if you decide not to have any spellcasters in your party. Things might become more difficult, sure... but that's not the same as impossible.


I should not be able to beat the final boss of Cyseal without investing some points / money into combat skills. I shouldn't be able to stroll up as a level 1 nobody and slap his shit.

Nor should I be able to rob the richest most powerful man in Cyseal without being a reasonably skilled thief.

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Well, you can't even access him until you get the required amulet, which means you couldn't possibly be level 1. Probably level 3 or 4 at lowest.

Let's just put it this way: with combat, you try to get the balance so that it is an appropriate challenge for appropriately geared characters with appropriate builds. Having poor gear or poor builds would make success less likely, eventually to the point where players could try over and over again and keep failing and eventually give up (even if it is still possible). I agree that the numbers should be stacked against those who aren't prepared for the task, and beneficial to those who are.

What I don't like are things like how Lockpicking works currently, where if you don't meet a certain arbitrary number you're just locked out. Both player strategy and gear/build should be factors towards success, which means that, with brilliant strategy and horribly deficient gear/build, you should still have at least a chance at success.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 25/07/14 12:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by dirigible
Thing is, Scrotie, that even WITHOUT invisibility I consider stealing to be way too easy.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I don't think that a couple warriors clanking around in full plate, with 0 points in Stealth or Pickpocket or Lockpick should be able to steal everything of value from the Mayor's home. And then, with no investment in Charisma or Barting, sell all of that gold-plated dinnerware and stacks of paintings to a merchant who doesn't find it the least bit strange that a couple grizzled adventurers just happened to be carrying around the contents of a mansion.

I literally just don't think that should be possible in this game.

If you want to build a character who can do all of that, fine. I'm all for it. But you should have to earn it. Your character SHOULD have to actually be good at sneaking in order to steal while standing right next to an npc. Your character SHOULD find it challenging to sell things which are obviously someone else's property. Your character SHOULDN'T be able to find keys to storerooms and treasure chests lying around on the ground, where anybody can pick them up.

I agree that invisibility is a related problem, but you don't even need to use it to be a master thief in this game.


I completely agree and yet I prefer the current solution to not having the option to steal. What you want is expensive to implement, and I think should not have been to focus of the current Divinity.

But I would love to see a more sophisticated stealing mechanic and maybe a divinity game about a pair of thieves / street kids.

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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
What I don't like are things like how Lockpicking works currently, where if you don't meet a certain arbitrary number you're just locked out. Both player strategy and gear/build should be factors towards success, which means that, with brilliant strategy and horribly deficient gear/build, you should still have at least a chance at success.

See, I'm the exact opposite, re: lockpicks. I remember playing Baldur's Gate, where lockpicking was a % chance of success. It sucked. You tried, reloaded, tried, reloaded, tried, reloaded, and eventually got the outcome you wanted. I really do not like game systems that encourage savescumming. I prefer lockpicking in DOS where you either fail 100% of the time or you succeed 100% of the time.

That said, I'm all for player skill being a boon to your characters' abilities. But currently being a thief in DOS is not dependent on stats AT ALL.

Originally Posted by Apocalyspe
I completely agree and yet I prefer the current solution to not having the option to steal. What you want is expensive to implement, and I think should not have been to focus of the current Divinity.

But I would love to see a more sophisticated stealing mechanic and maybe a divinity game about a pair of thieves / street kids.

I don't really agree that it's unrealistic to implement. I actually think it would be easy, with a couple minor tweaks.
1) Change sight to be a 300 degree radius instead of 90 degree
2) Higher ranks of stealth reduce enemy vision range and angle (currently they only reduce angle)
3) Picking up items cancels invisibility
4) NPCs will cancel dialogue if you don't keep talking to them.
5) Vendors will not buy certain items (silverware, paintings, etc) without you passing a Charisma check.
6) Getting caught at any step of the process reduces your entire party's reputation.

That solves 90% of the problems. You can no longer abuse invisibility, it's much harder (though still possible) to pull the 'distract and steal' trick, and it's harder to move stolen property.

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I think you'd find 300 you can still steal too easy, still plenty of cheese available. By going 360 it makes where things have to happen just right to steal. More realistic.

Last edited by Horrorscope; 25/07/14 01:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
I think you'd find 300 you can still steal way to easy. By going 360 it makes where things just happen to be just right to steal. More realistic.

Lol. I actually messed around with modding the way stealth works, and found 300 to be pretty good. At Stealth 5, it gets narrowed back down to around 60-90 anyway, due to the existing mechanics. I wasn't clever enough to get Stealth rank to affect their sight distance, but I'm sure it's possible.

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